 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Doc
Date: 2000-07-03 03:27
Golly, do I love posting in Clarinet World since I'm originally from sax land... Anyways....
In sax land we talk a lot about vintage instruments. VEry sought after Mark VI's and King Super 20's. Is this the same case here? I've been frequenting this board and havn't seen much about these instruments. Are there any older horns that people out there are just dying to get? Are there inflated prices for them if they are out there?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-07-03 03:58
Doc wrote:
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Are there any older horns that people out there are just dying to get? Are there inflated prices for them if they are out there?
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Actually, strange as it may seem - not really. There's always people who want a particular model, but the prices are pretty much reasonable.
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Author: Graham Elliott
Date: 2000-07-03 08:11
In UK prices the most you are going to pay for a pair of vintage instruments in good condition is about £2000 (see the thread re Trieberts last week). Why this is I do not know, but in my experience modern instruments are more powerful and easier to play. Then there is the tuning issue. Sound quality, once you have mastered the better older clarinet, is a different matter altogether, which is why they can be sought after by the few who want to take time over them.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-07-03 12:16
As a general sort of thing, in the clarinet world, we haven't seen the case that seems to occur in the sax world where older horns may be better. The newer models actually do seem to be improvements, although basically it is only slight. So older instruments simply function as a pool of affordable but good quality instruments.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-07-03 13:40
More [and less] Yes to your questions, Doc. There are quite a number of us [elders,perhaps] who collect clarinets [from nostalgia?] which were well regarded in their day, but as Dee and Mark commented, the newer ones are much better players! I have several pre-Boehms [Albert-Mullers][and do some reading and discussing on EarlyClarinet@egroups.com], a few earlier Boehms, a Mazzeo Bundy, am hoping for a McIntyre, would like to find a Christensen cl and/or a Paladino oboe [if they were ever made!!]. Other than those, I like to obtain-study different fingering systems and minor modifications, without having too much inventory [trying to keep fewer than Ken, Robert and now Dave seem to have!!]. Prices for historical horns seem moderate to me, when I consider my Mark 6 alto and our son's 6 tenor, wow! Will re-read the posts and add [or delete] as I am impelled. Don
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Author: Graham Elliott
Date: 2000-07-03 17:15
I'm going to march out of step here, but apart from the difficulties I mentioned earlier I am quite happy that i play better on Martels than I ever could on the modern instrument (although, yes, perhaps in the last ten years there has been more variety and i haven't tested the proposition to destruction. Certainly 15 years ago that was a comitted view). Anyway, the fact is that they were different, and created a different effect, which is subtly contrasted with the modern clarinet, but such subtleties are important. If you like the sound of the mainstream modern clarinet, fine. If you want something different you can buy Wurlitzer et al or Rossi etc.etc. Otherwise, another route to something different, and to me more magical than the mainstream poly narrow design, is to explore the straight bore instruments of the first couple of decades of the 20th Century.
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Author: Doc
Date: 2000-07-04 02:54
so it seems that the main interest is for the odd instruments. I've seen these are pretty rare, I'd like to play a Albert system some day, and get a feel for it. So really the playability of these instruments is lagging of the new instruments? Is that a correct interpretation?
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-07-04 03:57
Doc wrote:
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so it seems that the main interest is for the odd instruments. I've seen these are pretty rare, I'd like to play a Albert system some day, and get a feel for it. So really the playability of these instruments is lagging of the new instruments? Is that a correct interpretation?
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Many of them play quite well. There are people playing instruments made in the 1930s. If it was a top horn in its day and has been well maintained, there isn't *that* much difference. The changes have been more in the nature of refinements than in radically new designs. Even the biggest ideas that have come along haven't been universally incorporated in all new clarinets as not all players like them. For example, the polycylindrical bore introduced by Buffet in the R-13 has not been adopted across the board by all companies for all their pro models.
Since Albert system is not made anymore, it's getting a little difficult to find one in playing condition although there are some that can be put into playing condition. You might consider a modern German (i.e. Oehler) system clarinet as it is the descendent of the Albert system.
This whole discussion started with a question whether there were certain vintage clarinets that were highly sought after as performing instruments.
In the saxophone world, there are certain vintage horns that are believed to be better than new ones. Whether this is true or not is hard to say but a large segment of saxophone community believes it. So there are certain vintage horns that will bring prices in excess of the finest new horns that are made today. There is another group of vintage horns that will bring prices very close to new horns.
In the clarinet world, this does not seem to be the case. There don't seem to be any vintage clarinets that are considered to be better that today's top of the line horns. Today's new instruments are considered to be better but not so much so that a person with an older used horn would be at a major disadvantage (assuming of course that it was a quality instrument to start with). Many people will scarcely even notice the difference in playability.
The end result is that we clarinet players really have a pretty good situation here. There's a large pool of good quality used clarinets at decent prices. The size of that pool is what helps keep the prices of the used horns down. In addition, since the new clarinets are only incrementally better, the large pool of quality, used instruments probably helps keep the price of the new instruments from skyrocketing since the incremental performance increase isn't enough for purchasers to be willing to pay huge sums of money that increment.
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Author: Mike
Date: 2000-07-05 06:33
The one analogue to the sax world is in the accessories. Where a vintage kaspar or chedeville mouthpieces bring large sums, exceeding that of vintage sax mouthpieces.
>> Mike <<
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-07-05 07:42
There is a german manufacturer who makes 'period clarinet'.
http://www2.raidway.ne.jp/~ish/lydian.html
Tonal impression is quite different between in Weber's era and now. Tone was very brighter then. Some player uses a copy of period clarinet with piano forte.
Typical vintage clarinet is Koktan's clarinet used by Leopold Urach of Viena.
As you know Corn made a great instruments when they were in NY. But after they moved from NY, many superve craftspeople quit it and their quality was totally ruined. I suspect a same thing happened to Buffet, when they were bought by Boosey and Hawks.
Even when we buy modern clarinets, there is a choice to select somewhat vintage ones:selected by pros among many and specially treated by superior craftpeople.
Typical example is Hans Moennig adjusted buffet R-13s, which were used Ralph McLane and its pupil Harold Wright. Since he passed away, some people seem to seek these instruments. Now,Greg Smith of Chicago and Brannen jointly select R-13s and specially adjust them from International Music Supplier. Tom Ridenour also sells 'Total Clarinets'.
As to vintage mouthpiece, you know Selmer's Soloist mouthpiece for saxophone. Kasper cicero or chicago mouthpieces for clarinet are just like that and costs more than 500$!
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-07-05 07:43
There is a german manufacturer who makes 'period clarinet'.
http://www2.raidway.ne.jp/~ish/lydian.html
Tonal impression is quite different between in Weber's era and now. Tone was very brighter then. Some player uses a copy of period clarinet with piano forte.
Typical vintage clarinet is Koktan's clarinet used by Leopold Urach of Viena.
As you know Corn made a great instruments when they were in NY. But after they moved from NY, many superve craftspeople quit it and their quality was totally ruined. I suspect a same thing happened to Buffet, when they were bought by Boosey and Hawks.
Even when we buy modern clarinets, there is a choice to select somewhat vintage ones:selected by pros among many and specially treated by superior craftpeople.
Typical example is Hans Moennig adjusted buffet R-13s, which were used Ralph McLane and his pupil Harold Wright. Since he passed away, some people seem to seek these instruments. Now,Greg Smith of Chicago and Brannen jointly select R-13s and specially adjust them from International Music Supplier. Tom Ridenour also sells 'Total Clarinets'.
As to vintage mouthpiece, you know Selmer's Soloist mouthpiece for saxophone. Kasper cicero or chicago mouthpieces for clarinet are just like that and costs more than 500$!
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-07-05 07:46
This is the right one. http://www2.raidway.ne.jp/~ish/lydian.html
Sorry for double posting and an error.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-07-05 07:46
This is the right one. http://www2.raidway.ne.jp/~ish/lydian.html
Sorry for double posting and an error.
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Author: Mark P.
Date: 2000-07-05 10:21
I've built a small collection of vintage clarinets for a fraction of what a Selmer Mark VI alto would go for including a 1902 full Boehm Buffet with a one piece body, 1921 Bb Conn Albert, 1905 Conn Albert in A, 1939 Conn metal clarinet (bell engraving identical to a 6M sax except no naked lady and gold washed bell), and a matched set of Penzel Mueller's Bb and A from the 1915-20 period. Added to that are some Mueller systems and high pitch horns. For the most part the overhauls cost more than the instrument.
Early (1950s)Buffet R-13s and Selmer Series 9*'s are the only ones that even seem to approach the level of vintage saxophones. Even then you're still only looking at 600-800.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-07-05 11:56
Mark P. wrote:
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... Early (1950s)Buffet R-13s and Selmer Series 9*'s are the only ones that even seem to approach the level of vintage saxophones. Even then you're still only looking at 600-800.
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Even at that, the price is more reflective of what you should expect to pay for a good quality professional used clarinet rather than being based on the comparable saxophone "vintage" mindset.
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Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-07-05 13:33
The most I've ever paid for a used, vintage Bb soprano clarinet was $100, for a 1937 wooden Buffet that was dirty but otherwise in fine condition. It had been previously re-padded at least once, probably a number of years earlier. It's the best clarinet I've ever played (FWIW -- I'm an amateur and I don't own a modern R-13). Although I'm not "officially" collecting clarinets, I've picked up a few interesting ones, most of them for under $50. Metal clarinets have such a poor reputation (because the majority are the lowest of low-end, student quality instruments) that even the few professional-quality ones usually sell for very little. Among local antiques and "collectibles" people, I keep my trap shut about clarinets, because I've seen prices on other vintage items grossly inflate after people started talking them up. Right now, clarinets are affordable, and I'd like to help keep them that way. I'd hate to see non-musicians hoarding old clarinets as if they were -- eeek! -- Beanie Babies. So, when I see something I like, I quietly buy it and take it to the car. I'll talk about it with other clarinet players (on this BB, for instance), but I don't go prancing around and showing it off to the dealers.
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Author: Doc
Date: 2000-07-06 03:57
Interesting! I'm really enjoying this talk here! I'm a metal clarinet freak personally and I do know what you are talking about their rep. I play mostly jazz, on a metal clarinet and i've got numerous remarks of the distinct tone (of course I also have to thank the awesome mp for it). I'm glad that someone out there thinks like me and doesn't want the collectors to get a hold of these horns... or even worse, make them in to wall hangers... I cringe at that thought.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2000-07-08 02:09
Doc
-- you are too late. As best I can tell, wooden clarinets are not antiques unless they were made before 1880. The pro quality metal clarinets now fetch more than comparable quality vintage wooden instruments and,for some models, actually exceed the the cost of used but relatively new, quality horns. And of course the Haynes, which were solid silver, may or may not have been better than other metal clarinets of the day, and actually go for as much as new pro quality instruments. I too love the old metal clarinets. Most have larger bores and have a nice flexible tone good for jazz, big band, blues & such. Dee's Conn, on the other hand, has a narrower bore and might be better for classical music. That horn could be had on eBay for $150 to $300 with some depending and lots of uncertainty. It may never sell for a penny more, but is a bargain compared with a new Bundy or Vito
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