 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: nate
Date: 2007-05-24 06:01
Are there any suggestions that anyone might have concerning practice methods. I practice and practice but it never seems like I get better, can you help me.
thank you
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Author: Katelyn
Date: 2007-05-24 06:36
Take a look at this one:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=31608&t=31608
Post Edited (2007-05-24 06:38)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-24 09:20
nate,
please elaborate:
- what does your current practice method look like?
- what makes you think you make no progress?
- what do you think is the reason for that lack of progress?
- do others share that impression?
- where are you and where do you think you should be?
--
Ben
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Author: William
Date: 2007-05-24 21:29
Instead of practicing a lot of different etudes, scales, etc and expect to "progress", try practicing one scale and a related etude until you can play it better. Not knowing what level you are at, I would suggest the old Rubank Advanced Clarinet Method and follow its curriculum, one section per month, until you complete the book. However, before practicing a new section, always play through all of the ones completed as a warm-up. Do this until you complete the entire lesson schedule and can play the entire book in one sitting. This is what I did in high school and it worked for me.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2007-05-25 02:53
The thread that Katelyn suggested is very good.
I would also recommend the suggestions given by Peter Hadcock in his book "The Working Clarinetist", page 185 entitled "Practicing". Practice intelligently! If you just run through music at a rapid pace you're bound to make mistakes and get frustrated beyond belief because you seem to never get better. The section "Try Not to Practice Mistakes...The Five-and-One Method" is one I've always been grateful to have come to know.
There are some other tricks that have been mentioned on this BB, for example ways of learning 16th-note or 6/8 runs by changing the rhythms before returning to play them as written. There are lots of little tricks to train your brain more quickly than just beating your head against the wall for hours. Those long-time players on this BB can be full of great tricks.
It takes maturity to be patient but by using smarter methods of practicing you can reduce your total practice time considerably and is THE fastest way of progressing. Taking a phrase from Monty Roberts, a horse trainer and a long-time corporate public speaker, "Fast is Slow". The faster you try to accomplish something without taking time to think and do it well the first time, the longer it'll take, or your goal could simply continue to elude you.
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-05-25 03:37
nate,
A year or so (?) ago, GBK provided his recommended practise system on the BB. You should be able to find it in the thread below. That is where I would start.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=215822&t=215795
Regards,
Hans
Post Edited (2007-05-26 17:08)
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-05-25 08:28
Practice with someone (play duets)... better still, a quartet - worked absolute wonders for my technique.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-05-25 08:39
A band teacher in High School told us once 'Practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Practicing right makes perfect.'
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Author: chumbucket804
Date: 2007-05-26 05:49
skygardener wrote:
> A band teacher in High School told us once 'Practice doesn't
> make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Practicing right
> makes perfect.'
My band director said something similar. "Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."
If you practice with mistakes you are just making those mistakes permanent. Take it slow and get it right.
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Author: MichaelR
Date: 2007-05-26 13:59
You might consider getting a recorder of some sort and capturing your sessions. Listening to yourself is pretty instructive. Listening to yourself as you play a piece today, a month ago, and several months ago is even more instructive.
There was a recent thread on recorders:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=232780&t=232764
Nate, you're in Portland so you could go by Portland Music on MLK and check out the choices in person.
--
Michael of Portland, OR
Be Appropriate and Follow Your Curiosity
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Author: nate
Date: 2007-05-26 22:10
Ben here is the elaboration you asked for,
- what does your current practice method look like?
I use a B45 Vandoran Mouthpiece, Vandoran 3-3.5, a Rovner Lig. and a Buffet E13. Rubank Advance Method, Rose 32 Etudes, and High School Band. Slow, steady and making sure read ALL the music.
- what makes you think you make no progress?
Throught the years of practice I advanced from an average joe in the middle of my section, to third, to second, and now I sit as first chair in my schools Wind Ensemble. However, I am preforming these pieces and I still seem to struggle with those things that I practice. I know I am a good player but I am not a musician yet, I believe that I have great tone and it sounds beautiful, but sometimes it sounds as if I am a sixth grader again learning how to make a sound come out.
- what do you think is the reason for that lack of progress?
That I wish I could tell you because then I would be able to fix it or at least be pointed in the right direction. I practice all my scales M, m, and H, I've gone through the Rubank Books and Roses and I play different Solos. However, I still stumble and fumble.
- do others share that impression?
All others say is that I sound fine, they don't really share an opinion. My director thinks that I am a good player for someone in high school.
- where are you and where do you think you should be?
I am currently the first chair in my Wind Ensemble, however, in contest with the player under me (we switch back and forth.) In our solo and ensemble contest I've rank superior for the two years that I competed in, preforming Carl Maria Von Weber's Concerto No. 1 (First and Third movements), but neve made it to state. With the amount that I practice I think I should be able to keep my chair and make it to state. I think I should be advancing more that I am.
thank you
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-05-26 22:13
Perfect Practice Makes Perfect
Consider having a good teacher work with you on practice techniques.
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Author: vjoet
Date: 2007-05-29 12:26
Hmmm?
Let me ask a question: When do you find you make mistakes? Is it when your mind wanders?
In my personal experience (fairly advanced amateur) I find my mistakes happen when I start thinking about things other than the music at hand: the seating arrangement of the choir at church, what the attorney said about the case, etc.
For me mistakes are a matter of lack of concentration. And I have a solution that works for me:
When I practice, I mentally hear the next note before I play it. No, this doesn't stop the brain cells from their inner dialogue, but it does put that into the background (like white noise) so that dialogue doesn't distract me. It goes on, but my attention is on the music. I make a conscious choice that the matter at hand is the music, and achieve this by hearing the tone / interval before I sound it.
Doing this is most difficult when the practice is the rote scales, arpeggios, etc. It is so easy for the mind to wander then. For those it helps me to make a conscious choice make each scale / arpeggio beautiful, as if a passage in a symphony. That, plus the hearing the intervals, really helps.
vJoe
(amateur)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-05-29 13:06
You've already gotten lots of good advise, but let me add one encouragement to the picture. An orchestra conductor once told me that everyone experiences plateau situations in their growth on their instrument. This occurs no matter how many hours one practices. Even though you do not feel you are getting better the fact remains that you are improving each time you practice. Your brain and motor skills are being trained (that's why you want to cultivate good habits) as well as your ears. If you keep on keeping on you will improve. It may not be obvious to you because it is a gradual thing, but you will get better if you do not give up.
This is like a diet (I mention because I'm on a very strict one right now). You do what you're supposed to do and really work at the diet and drop 5 pounds the first couple of weeks or so and then you continue your diet and exercise and only drop 1 pound the next couple of weeks. You have to keep on the routine because it will work. Plateau periods are a part of improvement.
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-05-29 13:36
Chin up, Nate.
It sounds like you have improved over the years, even if you're not where you'd like to be yet. You say you still fumble and stumble and sometimes sound like a 6th grader struggling with tone. The fumble and stumble thing can be fixed with slow and careful metronome practicing. The tone issue can be a combination of embouchure, air, and mouthpiece and reed setup. A good teacher can help you with this. Recording, as mentioned above, is also very instructional, for both your tone issue and the fumble/stumble issue.
Also, surrounding yourself with like-minded young musicians is important. Try to enroll in a summer music camp if it's not too late, or a weekend music program during the school year. Clarinetfest is in Vancouver this year, which probably isn't super duper far from Oregon. Something like that can be very inspiring and mind-opening for a young musician...you get to hear masterclasses and fantastic performers from all over the world. Listening to great recordings of great performers is also very helpful.
Most of all, be patient with yourself, and listen and read a lot to expand your knowledge. Good luck.
-Claritoot26
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Author: MichaelR
Date: 2007-05-29 13:44
Nate - great details in the response to Ben.
> sometimes it sounds as if I am a sixth grader again learning how to make a sound come out.
Are those sometimes when you're fatigued? When you're pushing to do something newer and more difficult?
> - what do you think is the reason for that lack of progress?
> That I wish I could tell you because then I would be able to fix it or at least be pointed in the right direction. I practice all my scales M, m, and H, I've gone through the Rubank Books and Roses and I play different Solos. However, I still stumble and fumble.
Practicing fast or slow? One bit of advice you'll find over and over is go slow. At least slow enough that you can do it perfect. Only speed up if you could fall asleep while playing and still play it right - get doing it right that ingrained in your muscle habits.
By "practice" do you mean "I play ____." or "While playing ____ I concentrate on the single skill improvement I'm practicing for with this ______." That kind of concentration is tough.
> - do others share that impression?
> All others say is that I sound fine, they don't really share an opinion. My director thinks that I am a good player for someone in high school.
Does he understand that being a good player for someone is high school isn't good enough for you? Make it really clear to him that you want better and you're coming to him for help in being better. It sounds like he's reassuring you when you are craving more challenge. That's frustrating.
> - where are you and where do you think you should be?
> I am currently the first chair in my Wind Ensemble, however, in contest with the player under me (we switch back and forth.)
Consider that the player under you is improving too. Using being better than him/her as a measure of your own quality is fraught with problems.
> In our solo and ensemble contest I've rank superior for the two years that I competed in ... but neve made it to state.
In contrast this is a clear, measurable goal statement. "I want to go to state." What does the band director say about this situation?
I suggest you find more measurements like this - where the measurement is against your performance.
--
Michael of Portland, OR
Be Appropriate and Follow Your Curiosity
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Author: Clarinet4hire
Date: 2007-05-29 15:22
I agree with Bassie- Get a small goup together and play Lots of chamber music. Then after that- play More chamber music, and more, and more. Don't quit. Get music that will challenge everybody and don't give up. You will be amazed how much better you play in regards to everything else!(Including your intonation.)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-05-29 19:12
I think your problem is in the subject line.
If you're just doing "practice, practice, practice," progress will be slow indeed. Throwing more and more time at practice without having a purpose is like throwing more and more money at a company without knowing what it does. Sure, there may be some successes, but you'll probably end up with a well-funded pile of mediocrity.
True, mindless repetition does have its merits, but they are limited. There are tons of different things you can do to practice more effectively, lots of which can be found with a teacher who knows how to practice well. A half hour of purposeful, focused practice can be more effective than a six-hour day of slop.
Try this for starters... when you practice, be aware of what your air and your fingers are doing. Many, many people become disconnected from this, automate it, and just play what notes are on the page. This can lead to poor time (you're living at when you think it's happening rather than when it does), funky intonation (you keep playing "up" when the page goes higher), break crossing (less air for long B, even though it's at the bottom of the horn), etc. Pay attention to where your fingers are, and, more importantly, where they are headed next and how they'll get there.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: nate
Date: 2007-05-29 23:45
vJoe,
>Let me ask a question: When do you find you make mistakes? Is it when your mind wanders?
-No.. When I practice I always set my entire mind on the task; if my mind wanders I end up stopping all together to find the answer to whatever I started to think of. I completely agree that mistakes happen when you're not focused on the task at hand.
I do that exact thing with scales, arpeggios, ect. it makes it fun and keeps me going through the exercises.
Claritoot26,
When, what and where is this Clarinetfest?
Michael of Portland, OR,
>Are those sometimes when you're fatigued? When you're pushing to do something newer and more difficult?
-sometimes, but other times it's during simple things while i'm still fresh and when I shouldn't be. As for the tempo of my practice sessions; if I can't play it I'm going too fast. I try to always fix the tempo at a speed that is comfortable and I everso slowly pick up the pace.
Clarinet4hire,
I too agree with Bassie, howerver, no one else does. Being in high school there are very few people who want to further there study in music (i don't know why they are in band) but for the people that do care don't have time or they don't want to do it. (with school, work, ect). If there is anyone out there willing or looking for someone to play with by all means let me know.
Alex,
you're right, and I did have a teacher for awhile but I can't really afford continuous lessons once a week or everyother. It's more like once every new moon. And along every other student somewhere they have heard that "perfect practice makes perfect" my director has also mentioned that very phrase several times. I always try to make sure I'm doing everthing properly. Generally if it isn't done correctly I'll stop and start over, I'm sure it's not always that way but I try as hard as I can to make it so.
Thank you all for all your comments and suggestions I'll be sure to put it into practice if I haven't already. Thank you again if you still have comments, suggestions, or questions let me know I am more than willing for more suggestions or to answer more of your questions.
thank you
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2007-05-30 00:41
I agree with getting a small tape recorder ($25.00) and listening to yourself. Don't throw the tapes away. Put a date on them and put them aside. Then a month or so later, listen again. You will find that you have improved! This helped me a great deal. When I listen to tapes that I made a few years back, it surprises me! Also, I have an odd habit, but it helps me a great deal. I practice when I'm watching t.v. No music in front of me, just scales that I play over and over. My mind drifts off, but the fingers find their own way. You are playing, but not really listening to what you are doing. Sounds a bit odd I know, but I do this a lot. Good luck to you. I think you are better than YOU think that you are!
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-05-30 15:50
>>you're right, and I did have a teacher for awhile but I can't really afford continuous lessons once a week or everyother. It's more like once every new moon. And along every other student somewhere they have heard that "perfect practice makes perfect" my director has also mentioned that very phrase several times. I always try to make sure I'm doing everthing properly. Generally if it isn't done correctly I'll stop and start over, I'm sure it's not always that way but I try as hard as I can to make it so.<<
My point is that if you feel you're not making progress, there are probably lots of things you can change about your practice, and lots of changes you can make to your definitions of "properly" and "correctly". I've had enough concepts thrown at me over the past half dozen years to keep my practice sessions productive probably forever.
It's a matter of levels of awareness, which is a tricky concept for lots of people to accept. As with any sort of expertise, everyone has a certain level of awareness, and a certain ideal they strive for. Many concepts will raise that level, and give you more to think about, more to shoot for, until the level you're striving for becomes asymptotically near-unattainable. When you stop discovering more, your standards become stagnant, you come close to achieving your own personal ideal, and you feel like you're not making progress. But there's more, if you only listen for it. Sometimes it takes a push from someone else.
It's a double-edged sword, because as you become more aware of how music CAN sound, you become pickier and pickier about how people DO play music, and fewer and fewer performances live up to your ideals. Ultimately, music may very well become ruined for you, and you keep attending concert after concert, hoping for the elusive few that meet your impossible standards. You also probably become more frustrated in your ensembles, except the ones where other performers are also similarly musically sensitive. "It's just not right!" becomes a common complaint. You wonder how the people in the ensemble don't also hear the things that are horribly wrong. It's easy to say "they suck at it", but really, it's just a matter of awareness. They've probably hit their no-progress level, and they figure that's the end, and that it's just not possible for them to get any better, when really all it takes is someone else to give them a minor kick in the pants. You also may hit a point where you could care less what part you play in an ensemble, as long as the ensemble plays the music well. This may confuse others in the group ("you want to play THIRD???").
But you persevere, because it's so much a part of you now that you can't not do it.
At this point, finding ways to productively practice becomes a non-issue.
In essence, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. If you're hitting a brick wall, it's time to pursue learning more about how music works, by some avenue or another(reading, listening, talking, etc.). Hint: finding another person who knows a heck of a lot about music and getting lessons from them or playing in their ensemble usually works best.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
Post Edited (2007-05-30 15:51)
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Author: nate
Date: 2007-05-31 00:06
thank you
you bring very interesting and logical points. i understand 100%
i have printed every suggestion out and now have them in my music folder. for referance.
and use them in my studies
thank you
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Author: D
Date: 2007-06-05 19:01
One thing you could try is write down a schedule for your self for about three weeks. For each day have one thing that you will work on. It could be one bar that you are struggling on from a piece you can otherwise play, it could be the top octave of an awkward scale. Spend 15 minutes per day on that one item. Do it slowly and do it right. By then end of three weeks you will have accomplished improvement in 21 things which you couldn't do as well before and have a list in front of you as proof. By writing them down you have to think about a small item you want to focus on. As others have suggested, recording your self is a good way to measure progress and identify mistakes. Perhaps to get ideas for you daily challenge record a set of scales you think you can play and a few pieces you are happy with. Take some items from those to work on that sound ropey on the recording. Then next time record some things you are less happy with and see what comes across on the recording.
Most important, don't forget to have fun. If you want to spend 20 minutes noodling around then do. But be honest about it with your self. say you have an hour to practice. 5 minutes to warm up. 15 to concentrate on one problem. 20 to practice your parts for band or some scales. 20 to play about and have fun. Don't sit and think you are doing 1 hours solid practice on your solo for a contest. you can't focus productively for that long. You have to break it down further.
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2007-06-06 11:06
sometimes you just shouldn't play for one or two days , even three
so you get hungry again and can place all details in perspective.
Overtrained musicians tend to have low selfesteem :-) , i noticed
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Author: ginny
Date: 2007-06-06 15:30
Practicing well is important.
Practicing only seems to maintain my recent breakthroughs. When I improve it's rather sudden often times, and at these time very notatable, with a technique change that gets me closer to where I want to sound. Practicing to learn difficult passages doesn't really improve my playing to my mind, only if I improve my overall technique to manage the passage.
My son, a clarinet major but not probably not headed to a performance career practices less than most. However, he has always had the uncanny ability to make the change his teachers suggest permanent immediately. I don't know how he does this, but as a result he gets excellent results with less practice than most.
Other people learn differently, that is my experience.
Get a good teacher and make the improvements they suggest.
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