 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-20 20:49
Looking at those "other" clarinets such as Lyrique, Forté, ... I noticed that none comes with an LH Eb lever. It's nice to see things like adjustable thumb rests and various other bells and whistles - but why the omission of the LH pinky Eb lever?
--
Ben
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-05-20 21:13
(Disclaimer - I am a seller of the Forte' Bb and C clarinets)
Manufacturers will respond to two elements - demand and economics - from the customer base responsible for most of their sales.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-05-20 21:43
Some people with small hands simply cannot reach the position of the Left Hand Eb. I had one horn with this extra lever and I found it total pointless as I could not reach the key. Most grade school beginners would also not be able to reach this key on a standard size Bb. By the time the hand grows, many have become accustom to having 1 Eb. I've never had an issue with sliding to RH Eb in a pinch anyway.
BTW - I also find the adjustable thumbrest pointless. Great concept except manufacturers do no place the adjustable thumbrest higher than unadjustable rest. Who needs to put their thumb lower? I have the exact opposite problem , I need my thumb higher for proper positioning - as do many players I know.
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Author: voggorb
Date: 2007-05-20 21:55
Quote:
"BTW - I also find the adjustable thumbrest pointless. Great concept except manufacturers do no place the adjustable thumbrest higher than unadjustable rest. Who needs to put their thumb lower? I have the exact opposite problem , I need my thumb higher for proper positioning - as do many players I know."
-------
One advantage of lowering your thumb is that a lot of the tension in the RH third and especially fourth finger you might have when playing, goes away. At least it works that way for me. I have gotten used to having my thumbrest (Buffet RC) in the lowest position, and playing quick passages with my RH pinky is easier than it was when I had the thumbrest higher up.
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-05-20 22:14
voggorb wrote:
> Quote:
> One advantage of lowering your thumb is that a lot of the
> tension in the RH third and especially fourth finger you might
> have when playing, goes away. At least it works that way for
> me. I have gotten used to having my thumbrest (Buffet RC) in
> the lowest position, and playing quick passages with my RH
> pinky is easier than it was when I had the thumbrest higher up.
This just proves there is no one right answer.
Do you have very large hands?
I have small hands, and even having the thumbrest in the "normal" position causes too much strain and my wrist twists to compensate. My pointer finger is then positioned in a way where it almost touches the Eb/Bb lever of the upper joint - which is poor positioning. I need a higher thumbrest so my thumb is aligned with my pointer finger and my hand is open and relaxed.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-05-20 22:40
Dear Grifffinity,
When you say "thumb aligned with pointer," am I to assume that you hold up your clarinet with your thumb muscles? If so, does this not add strain? And you also refer to having your index finger "over" the Eb/Bb key as poor position.....where should it be?
............Paul Aviles
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-05-20 23:11
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Dear Grifffinity,
>
>
> When you say "thumb aligned with pointer," am I to assume that
> you hold up your clarinet with your thumb muscles? If so, does
> this not add strain? And you also refer to having your index
> finger "over" the Eb/Bb key as poor position.....where should
> it be?
>
>
> ............Paul Aviles
It is difficult to explain what is naturally a visual presentation, but I will try.
First - after playing for 20 years, I have developed some sort of muscle tone where holding the clarinet in the position I described above does not cause strain or pain on my right thumb or wrist. Indeed, it is quite natural and effortless for me.
For my body structure and the structure of many students I encounter with smaller hands, having the thumbrest too low causes the wrist to twist inward to the body. This results in the pointer finger, between the 1st and 2nd knuckle, to rest on the Eb/Bb lever. When you have smaller hands, this become an issue in several ways:
Many students I encounter end up straightening the ring and pinky fingers to compnsate, thus not completely covering the third hole of the lower joint. The pinky also has a tougher time reaching the Low B/E key - sometimes causing tension in stretching the pinky to reach.
The second issue is when the pointer is resting on the Bb/Eb lever, there is less freedom to use the upper auxilliary (trill) keys of the upper joint. Overall, there is also less freedom of movement than when the hand is in a more open position.
When my hand is in a relaxed position, away from the clarinet, the natural position of my thumb when I am holding something like a can or bottle, is the thumb directly behind the pointer finger. Having the thumbrest in the "normal" position is akin to moving my thumb directly between my middle and ring finger. For me, this causes immediate strain I feel in the muscle between my thumb and wrist joint (the muscle of the outer palm of th hand). Using the adjustable thumbrest to make it lower than "normal" is even more absurd for me.
It is true that I have come across a few players (all men) with large hands who have their own issues with placement. Perhaps someone with large hands is more comfortable with a very low thumbrest.
As to my original post, people with small hands or those who need a high thumbrest placement, are ignored by makers in regards to placement of the adjustable thumbrest. I know more than a few players who have had the thumbrest moved higher, so its not an uncommon complaint in my experience.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-05-21 07:12
My clarinet doesn't have the left Eb key either, or an adjustable thumbrest. I did use a clarinet with a left Eb key for years before I changed to the one I use now, but never used it even when I had it.
I've always played clarinet with too straight fingers (both hands, but mainly my right hand) but no matter what my teacher tried I just kept playing like this. One time (many years ago) me and my teacher noticed that if my thumbrest would be higher then it would help a lot for the angle of my fingers. I raised the (non-adjustable) thumbrest, and it did help. Then the pain started. I couldn't play for more than a few minutes without a HUGE pain. For some reason the higher thumbrest made my thumb to always be very tensed. The lower thumbrest somehow forced my thumb down in a way that I can't make it tense. I don't know if my hands are large or small, I'm guessing average, but I do have longer thumbs than most for this size hands. My teacher had very short thumbs and for her it was better with the higher thumbrest.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-05-21 08:08
Symmetry. The RH works three long keys and the Eb/Ab key; the LH works three long keys and the C#/G# key. The question is, why no RH C#/G# key?
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Author: gwie
Date: 2007-05-21 09:30
I found the LH Eb lever on the Buffet Festivals to be annoying. On all the instruments I tried, the vibration from the extra lever flitting up and down when playing the standard RH Eb (especially during D/Eb and G/Ab trills) made it wholly undesirable.
The C#/G# key (for LH and RH) on Leblanc's new Morrie Backun designed instruments is pretty darn cool. I almost wish they'd market it as an extension I can put on my current instrument!
G.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-05-21 09:56
I for one would love to have the LH Eb lever as standard equipment. Over the years I have not practiced all of my technical exercises as I used to pre/during/and a few years post college. Running across an instrument with the LH Eb is great for me, though I can barely reach it in most instances.
As for the thumb rest I tend to analyze the placement of the fingers on the RH, and for me with smaller hands, I tend to lower my thumb more. And 'm still able to reach the side trill keys w/o issue. If my thumb is too high I then have a tendency of having to angle my hand slightly (and thus pulling my 3rd finger slightly off the tone hole) while reaching for a spatula key. Of course, it varies slightly with make/model clarinets.
For some ppl with small hands and the thumb too high, they have a tendency of the hand angle not accompanying the keywork (which can be adjusted sometimes) such as always hitting the sliver B-F# key. Moving the thumb down adjusts the angle of the hand in accordance to the keywork and allows the pinky to more easily reach.
On instruments with high thumbrest I either add a thick block of cork temporarily and/or use a neckstrap which takes alot of the pressure off. I may be more acutely aware of the awkwardness/pain as I went thru about 6 mths of severe RH write pain which still pops up from time to time.
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-05-21 10:53
but there are a huge need for this LH Eb key!! there is a lot of passages that are impossible to play. maybe not when playing classical music. but in espessially irish music there is just no chance that the clarinet can keep up the really fast stuff between B and Eb!!!! then one have to, in some cases, use the RH pinky to take B and then the same finger for the Eb!!!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-05-21 11:13
Dear Grifffinity,
But the position of the hand/fingers relative to the clarinet must also be dictated by gravity....unless you are using a neck strap. I still worry about the accessabilty to the Eb/Bb sidekey. I am not advocating propping up the horn by sitting on this key, only that when you're holdinging your clarinet that your index finger (pointer) be no further UP than directly over the key. If it is HIGHER than this position, just exacty what are you doing physiologically to reach it that is NOT producing stress to the hand?
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-05-21 12:11
As Russianoff demonstrated to me:
Hold the Clarinet in your left hand with your arm straight out.
Reach to the Clarinet with your right thumb and place it under the rest.
That's your right hand position in it's most natural state and correct for Clarinet playing.
Of course there are many hand positions (Elsa Verdehr for one teaches a slightly different position) but that works for me.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-05-21 14:11
I just have a hard time playing with my left arm straight out! I'm all for comfort at my age. An interesting aside is to hear the index finger referred to as the "pointer".....must be an East Coast thing. Next thing is I'll hear the left hand referred to as the Cak hand. I reverse all my non-adjustable tr's, rest the bell on my leg and consider all opinions.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-05-21 14:28
I harp on the thumb position since my experience was similar to "Clarnibass." Here's the story:
Many years ago there was a throw-away article in "Clarinet" that extolled the virtues of the higher thumb rest position on the ground of better finger approach to the keys. I tried this position for many months by inverting the thumbrest. This began a long problem with hand fatigue that didn't end until I added a Kooiman gizmo. Years later I experimented with the adjustable thumbrest on the new R13 and miraculously found comfort without "robocop."
FOR ME, I found that the idea of finger position does not exist in a vacuum. What happened is that I was subconsciously pushing up with my thumb to reach the Eb/Bb key (a very used key). I guess what one is really doing is pushing the hang DOWN to reach a key that is below. But this adds more pressure to the thumb/hand which is already supporting the weight of the clarinet to begin with.
As for "Musiciandave," I love Leon Russianoff to death, but what happens immediately after you release the clarinet from your left hand onto your expectant right thumb? As BobD suggests, you'd better be sitting and have the bell on your knee.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-05-21 16:50
Quote:
But the position of the hand/fingers relative to the clarinet must also be dictated by gravity....unless you are using a neck strap. I still worry about the accessabilty to the Eb/Bb sidekey. I am not advocating propping up the horn by sitting on this key, only that when you're holdinging your clarinet that your index finger (pointer) be no further UP than directly over the key. If it is HIGHER than this position, just exacty what are you doing physiologically to reach it that is NOT producing stress to the hand?
Paul, I don't believe you understood my description of hand position.
For the record, I don't use a neckstrap.
The index finger, in my hand position and that I show my students is NOT higher than directly over the key. The index finger is actually perpendicular to the clarinet when positioned over the first hole. When the thumb is too low, I have found that many students collapse the wrist inward and the index finger lies diagnally across the clarinet, thus resting on the Eb/Bb lever.
There is more to hand position than just size of hands - as length of arms come into play as well. Someone with long arms will have a different angle to their approach to the lower joint. At this point, I have never had a very tall student - and perhaps in this case, a low thumbrest might be beneficial. I have not had the opportunity to experiment in this situation. The closest I can come to understanding large hands or long arms is thinking about my approach to Eb - due to the angle of my forearm, I can understand why I don't need a high thumb position on this horn.
Due to the length of my arms on Bb or A clarinet the angle of my right elbow is greater than 90 degrees. How far out from the body one holds the clarinet is another issue which affects hand placement/thumb position- I prefer to hold the horn betwen 30-35 degrees from the body. The only accurate description is a visual one - because all these numbers and wording get confusing at some point.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-05-21 17:01
Also, we must not loose the fact that different clarinets have thumbrests in different positions. Such as this example / analysis that I did for a customer
Eaton International vs Leblanc LL example:
(a) from top of joint to mid thumbrest
(b) from top of joint to mid 1st ring
(c) from top of joint to side F# key (the one you are always hitting)
Leblanc LL Eaton (in mm)
(a) 46.5 42.7
(b) 39.6 41.7
(c) 75.3 78.5
i've have also seen some thumbrests that are skewed to the side, making it slightly less comfortable for a particular player.
btw ... what is a "Cheetomeister"
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-05-21 20:36
Steve, I think the measurements that matter are the ones between the (top or bottom of the) tone holes (of the lower joint) and the bottom of the thumbrest. Length of joints can vary and the side F# also (and I never had a problem hitting it either).
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Author: D
Date: 2007-05-21 21:15
my clarinets have removable LH Eb levers. I can take them off whenever I want. I find them most useful when transposing, one less thing to think about.
I also find that I move the thumb rest up and down depending on my mood. This helps fatigue during day long sessions, but normally it is as high as it will go. Bizarrely I sometimes find that my thumb is not actually using the thumb rest but just pressing against the body. I think this is because I use quite a steep angle due to the alignment of my teeth.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-05-22 00:27
those measurements were taken for a customer that was always hitting the sliver key (not meant to *you*). the angle of his fingers in relation to the location of the thumb rest caused the angle of his fingers to actually cross above the sliver key, thus hitting it all the time. With his thumb lowered the angle of his finger(s) did not hit the sliver key anymore ..... there was no room for adjustment of the sliver key up/down angle between the rings - a tight fit there on an Eaton International.
the above information was simply to state .. different manufacturers have their thumbrest in different positions in relation to the ring keys
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-05-22 02:01
I would kill to maintain access to my Eb levers on my full Boehms and bass clarinet, but then again I play a lot of shows and show music for clarinets is often pitched in impossible keys. I also have "ham" hands, and have taken the precaution of trimming down the sliver keys to knobs more like the one on my bass clarinet. I have never had a "reach problem" on any horn outside of a German (Oehler) clarinet and a Conn tenor saxophone.
I see the Eb lever issue as a cost of manufacture cause and effect relationship. Manufacturers don't want to change what is a long established fundamental of the instrument (the 17/6 clarinet) and will not do so unless there is significant demand. There is little demand because 99% of the players of the horn (including top flight "pros") have never played upon such an instrument, this in turn due to their scarcity. THe teachers tell the students what to buy, and those decisions are made upon their limited experience. And, so it goes.
It doesn't help that it's virtually impossible to purchase such instruments outside of the top end model, and (in some cases) the only option available is to purchase a Pete Fountain model from Leblanc.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-22 05:40
> It doesn't help that it's virtually impossible to purchase such instruments
> outside of the top end model, and (in some cases) the only option available
> is to purchase a Pete Fountain model from Leblanc.
Amati has 18/6 models across their entire range, from the cheap plastic student horn up to their top-of-the-liners...
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-05-22 18:36
Now for the Eb/Ab lever issue:
How about those of us that don't like it because we trip all over it? There are a few written tonalities such as C# minor, G# minor, B major where this key helps avoid some logieness but I find it a pain except for extended scale horns like the low C bass instruments.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-05-23 05:50
I like having an Eb/Ab lever. My opus has it and I love it, and the prestige I'm using currently has it and I love it. Granted I don't use it that often, but sometimes I feel more comfortable using it, or get thrown off with fingerings and need to use it.
But yeah. It's not a necessity. And it's probably better to learn on clarinets that don't have as it's not common, and should your instrument ever go down for the count and you need a replacement in a jiffy, you don't want to be USED to using that.
Same principle applies to other nice little gizmos like an articulated G# or a seventh ring for that fork Bb/Eb fingering, or that low Eb lever which allows you to also play a different tonality Bb instead of a pinch Bb.
All very nice to have, and I do find myself gazing at the Amati 605/615 every now and then and wondering what wonders could be done if I were to buy one and send it to someone like Tom Ridenour for further adjustments/tuning, but what would happen if it conks out before a performance and I'm left with a "traditional" boehm clarinet to play on? Would it end up hurting me?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-05-24 05:26
But yeah. It's not a necessity. And it's probably better to learn on clarinets that don't have as it's not common, and should your instrument ever go down for the count and you need a replacement in a jiffy, you don't want to be USED to using that.
Take that approach, and you might as well argue that we return to the six key clarinet of the early 1800's. Push comes to shove, few have every tried out the alternate mechanisms available, much less played on one for long periods of time.
Chris and I probably have an aggregate total of sixty years playing such horns between us. Add in Don, and the figure probably climbs above a hundred. The only thing that bothers me about having them is the fact that it would be hard to replace them should they be lifted. Other than that, I feel very comfortable with the way that they work, the way that they stay in regulation, and certainly with the ease of use that they give me. Chris and Don can speak for themselves, of course.
As for the availability of a full Boehm horn from Amati, I have one Amati "professional grade" instrument, their top end Oehler horn. Based upon the fit and finish of that instrument, I would not purchase another horn from them. Chips on some tone holes, overall poor fitting of the key work, and a general air of "doing it on the cheap" not found in my other (Selmer) clarinets. Amati may produce perfectly fine Boehm horns, but based on my one Amati horn to date, I'm not confident that they are equal to any of the Big Four.
(If I didn't already have two Selmer full Boehms in Bb, and I had to replace one or both of them, I'd probably go with the Pete Fountain model. The low Eb option is a non-starter in my eyes (that's what they make A clarinets for), and the Fountain horn offers the other "gimmicks" that make the full Boehm such a flexible tool for musical magic.
I find that I seldom (maybe once a year) use the low Eb with the register for a Bb. Almost always, it's done for a quick trill - never for a held note (I use A key and trill key 2 for those) It's not the "same" timbre as the rest of the horn, and it just doesn't "sound right". However, one thing that it does do is to make the low E and the middle B come out far better than standard horns.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Michelle
Date: 2007-05-24 05:46
I for one would willingly trade a cranky and moody 12 year old stepchild for a good clarinet with an alternate left hand ab/eb key. Coming from mostly bass and (gasp! alto) clarinet playing, with both of those instruments having the extra key, I find I MISS IT TREMENDOUSLY on my regular old clarinet. Yes, the playing I have been doing on my clarinet has been mostly show tunes in the pit and I do recognize there would be little need for using it in a band/orchestra setting. However, I would still trade the kid for one. Any takers?
(disclaimer - for anyone without a sense of humor, I am kidding about the trade. But my comments about the clarinet stand)
Michelle
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