 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-05-19 09:50
Hi list
This is not clarinet specific so I hope you'll indulge me.
I am still at the "pre-pubescent" stage on the instrument, so clearly I can't do any of the following, but here's the query.
Although I don't play any instrument, I am reasonably musical in that- for a reasonably familiar melody- I can whistle or sing " all the right notes in the right order". This is an automatic process, and I never have to think about it.
However, I remember when fooling around on a keyboard some years ago, and now on the clarinet, my brain just doen't function that way, and I have little idea whether the next note should be up, down, or even the same, even though the melody is familiar. I confess that I am puzzled by this, but perhaps I shouldn't be?
In the fullness of time, I would dearly like to be able to play by ear, as well as more conventionally by reading a manuscript. So therefore I wonder if the ability to whistle or sing "by ear" will be acquired when I am more competent on the instrument or whether there is some physiological difference twixt these functions. As an aside: I mentioned to my teacher that I would like to be able to play by ear, and he replied that he simply had no idea how to teach someone to do this. Perhaps this is unsurprising for a professionally educated musician, but I did find it a little disappointing. Perhaps I am judging too harshly?
Your opinions would be welcome.
Clive
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-05-19 12:21
Clive,
Music majors take several years of theory and sight singing/dictation. There are two parts to the second. You need to be able to transfer what you hear to manuscript or be able to associate specific heard pitches to an interval which than can be played on an instrument. Also, you learn to sing written intervals that are viewed on a page.
Do some searches for perfect pitch (a gift to some and a curse to others) versus relative pitch (which is what most of us learn to do).
HRL
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-19 12:49
"Playing by ear" is - for me - different from "playing by heart". If someone asks me to play the first phrase of "Danny Boy" I just do it, in whatever key suits me best at that moment. When someone plays it on his instrument and asks me to play the same in the same key, it's a lot more difficult.
Ask your teacher to play a short phrase (close your eyes) and you'll repeat. You can vary that a bit - he/she plays the question, you reply. Could make a great warm-up at the beginning of a lesson.
--
Ben
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-05-19 12:53
Even those of us who were not formally trained in music eventually develop some semblance of pitch acuity that allows us to hear a note and then play it on our instrument (at least close, within a tone or semi--tone).
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-19 13:51
Hello again Clive,
Your problem is your unfamiliarity with your interface (clarinet). This will be solved with time. If you think back to first time you ever learned anything, you will find that in the beginning you had to devote a great deal of attention to JUST DOING THAT THING. Now you can do it much more easily, and you have attention to spare.
Along Tictactux's line of though:
I play ear training games with my students from the first lesson. Game one is find the note. I play, they use their clarinet to find.
Game two, play the rhythm. I play a four beat rhythm, and they figure it out.
Game three is the two combined in first simple and then ever more complex challenges.
We almost never have more than five minutes to play, but it makes a great deal of difference in their playing.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2007-05-19 13:55
To people without perfect pitch (almost everybody), playing a clarinet by ear is a learning process. For some people it comes relatively quickly, and for others it takes a long time, but the process is the same. Work on scales and arpeggios etc. in all keys, then listen and play along with others. Eventually you will be able to pick up your instrument and jump right in.
I'm one of the "slow learners" but I am gradually improving. I keep my clarinet on a stand near my favorite easy chair and play along with TV commercials, theme songs, etc. The Jeopardy theme song is a good one because it is so familiar and it changes keys.
Obviously some keys are much easier than others.
The most fun is to jam with others, but I don't get to do this very often.
The trick is to get as familiar with your instrument as you are with your vocal chords. When you hear anote and sing it, you're not thinking about how much tension to place on your vocal chords. Ideally you don't want to be thinking about fingerings of notes either.
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-05-19 13:56
Clive,
Your ability to play by ear will almost certainly improve over time. The more you practise it, the better it will get. It will (probably) reach the point at which you will automatically play the correct note, even if there is an error in the written music that you are playing from.
Regards,
Hans
Post Edited (2007-05-19 13:58)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-05-19 14:34
Clive, to play by ear on your clarinet will take time and the more you are familiar with your clarinet you will get better.
If you can't tell if a melody is going up or down, start with very basic excercise - sing two notes and decide if it went up or down (not on your clarinet). Then you can add more notes, etc.
I would also do interval excercises on the piano. I'm not sure if you already know the names of the notes and the intervals, but here are some excercises for example - Have someone play two notes, one after the other, and you try to "guess" the interval (of they tell you the first note and you "guess" the second). Another option is to play a note, choose an interval (i.e. a second note) and try to sing it. Then check on the piano if you were right. This way you will learn how to recognize intervals.
One very important thing imo in all of these excercise, is to do all the "calculations" in your head. If you are trying to find a note on the clarinet (or any instrument) don't play a lot of notes until you find it on the instrument. Of course this might be impossible in the beginning so when you start you can play or do whatever you need to find the note, but aim to be able to do the "process" in your head. It might very slow at first, but eventually it will become faster, until it is almost like intuition.
Although, the thing that helped me the most to be able to play by ear is simply playing by ear things I heard (on CDs, etc).
Anyway, don't lose hope. I was always about average in my class in ear training, and for the first ten years that I played clarinet I almsot only played written music (occasionally playing in kids jazz group without really knowing what I was doing most of the time) and now almost all my music and what I play is improvisation that relies on people to react to each other by listening.
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Author: old999
Date: 2007-05-19 14:56
One way to help "hear" intervals is to pick the opening notes of a familiar piece and learn what the interval is.
I've been at the clarinet for almost a year and a half. In my last lesson my eye lost its place when jumping to the next line. Somehow I"knew" what the next note "should" be and I played it right on. I think of it as a milestone of sorts.
Al
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-05-19 16:58
Lots of good pro advice above, being in Dave S's " degree of musical training" , a word of experience-advice. I like to play ballads [AABA types], love songs, inspirationals, for our other residents at our retirement community. Trying hard to work up Misty for my alto cl, I couldn't get the Bridge [ the B], so I didnt attempt to "wing it". I found the words on the net, and listened to several renditions of it, so now I have it ALL, and can "embellish" it as I please. It takes "ears, yes, and some brains also. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-05-19 17:21
Thanks everybody, a litttle too much to acknowledge individually. The concensus seems to be, perhaps unsurprisingly, that it will be acquired when I am as familiar with the cl as I am with my voice. This make perfect sense, and although I don't seem to know whether a note is up or down, clearly something in my subconscious memory knows exactly that and "plays" the right voice chord/note without even thinking.
One problem I have at present when playing written music is that if I am familiar with the piece ( both rhythm and melody) I am able to play it, albeit not with any fluency. However, if I am not, then I really struggle as there is simply then no continuity. My teacher is concerned about this, and cannot understand what my problem is. Equally I cannot understand why he cannot understand! Since I am much older than he and indeed all of his pupils, I am familiar with many more of the melodies in the student book.
Thanks again
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Author: old999
Date: 2007-05-19 17:46
----------------------
One problem I have at present when playing written music is that if I am familiar with the piece ( both rhythm and melody) I am able to play it, albeit not with any fluency. However, if I am not, then I really struggle as there is simply then no continuity. My teacher is concerned about this, and cannot understand what my problem is. Equally I cannot understand why he cannot understand! Since I am much older than he and indeed all of his pupils, I am familiar with many more of the melodies in the student book.
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Perfectly understandable IMHO. I have the same problem. It just takes time and practice.
BTW - My teacher from day 1 has encouraged me to pick out by ear the notes of familiar songs. Then try them in different keys. Of, course most of our time is spent reading music, learning rythms, and playing solos and duets. He wants me to be able to approach the music from both directions - written and unwritten and to become conscious of what my fingers are doing as opposed to memorizing patterns. I find that with pieces I've learned without written music I'm more able come up with embellishments and alternate phrases as the mood strikes me. Thus I can take a song like Amazing Grace and play it through a number of times, each with a different phrasing scheme and then jump the octave.
Al
Al
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-05-19 18:13
Al thanks, you've struck a chord ( pun intended!)
It was in fact Amazing Grace in my student book that threw me, even though I know the piece well of course. So much so that I had scribbled WRONG on the Ms, and changed a couple of notes so that it sounded "right"!
The first three bars are written ( note lengths not included)
GC / C EDC/ E ED
I had changed the third bar to read A G, and sung it to prove to my teacher that I was "right". He looked puzzled apparently not really being familiar with the melody, but looked along the Ms and pointed out that the next two bars were C A/G GC
At that point we moved on, but even when I got home ( and still) it throws me as written. I have little doubt that the written Ms is technically correct, but being so different to that with with I am familiar from singing, I am completely thrown. He beleives that I just need to play what is written down, but it's very tought to unlearn something with which one is so familiar!
Thanks again
Clive
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Author: old999
Date: 2007-05-19 18:34
Clive,
I find a lot of traditional songs are written differently than the way I've heard them played or the way I think they should be played.
My goal is to someday be able to improvise intelligently, even if in a small way. So "hearing" in your mind what you want to play is important. Of course, everything I've read points to the absolute necessity of learning music theory, which I'm doing gradually. My teacher says there's no alternatative to flat out learning it.
Al
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2007-05-19 18:59
A more pessimistic view. I too can hum or whistle a familiar tune but can't pick it out on the clarinet (or keyboard). I took a semester's worth of music dictation and discovered that with enormous practice I could name the closer intervals but that in general I was terrible at it. For me, playing Mary Had A Little Lamb by ear is almost a random process. It's true that I improved a bit with intensive music dictation but not enough to really make a difference.
I stick to the printed page. I'm in my mid-60's now and have been playing clarinet for about 7 years. As a teenager I taught myself 5 string banjo from Pete Seeger's LP and book; as long as there was tablature, I was OK but playing by ear was impossible for me. Most folks songs have 3 chords; I could tell when it was time to change but as often as not I changed to the wrong one.
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-05-19 20:48
There are people for whom playing by ear is a natural process. They just do it, and the more they do it, the better they get at doing it. I know musicians to whom if I play a tune, they will play it right back to me, with the same ease that I can sight-read it. It's as if they have a skill you might call "ear-reading".
I have no doubt about two things: Sight reading and ear playing are skills that 1) can be learned, but 2) people have different natural abilities. If you do not have a lot of natural ability with one or the other, you can learn with hard work but you will never be as good as someone else with considerably more natural ability who does not work nearly so hard at it. It may be so hard to learn one or the other that for practical purposes you really can't learn it; there isn't enough time.
Reading predominates of course in classical music and if you are a poor reader you will have trouble playing with other musicians, even on an amateur level. But playing by ear is the basis of folk and pop and a lack of sufficient ear playing skill closes much of this world off to you, as I can personally attest. Jazz uses both, and requires both to participate in the full range of jazz activities, but a good ear player / poor reader can do a heck of a lot more small combo-wise than the other way around, once the ear player develops his "repertoire" and also uses his ear for improv.
Some other opinions of mine:
Memorizing and playing by ear are two different things.
Being able to improvise to chord changes, even w/o the written music in front of you, is different than being able to learn a melody by ear note for note.
I don't play any instruments other than clarinet and sax, but know enough about tune structure, e.g., I - V, I - IV progressions, that if I played guitar or piano I could probably deduce the chords to tunes that followed simple progressions.
Many ear players use other clues: Guitar players, in particular, watch other guitar players' hand positions to pick up tunes.
You can have any mix and match of the above-mentioned skills in terms of natural ability.
It always amazes me when a good ear player has to ask, "What's the key?" When you're a good ear player you should be able to hear that. I'm a poor ear player but can always find the key or the root.
If you are deficient in either ear playing or reading, don't feel so bad. There are people who are deficient at both. Those folks are truly bad players, because there's no way they can actually play.
My $0.02
Steve Epstein
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-05-19 22:22
My suggestion for learning to play by ear is different from most of those I've read above. Rather than analyzing how to play by ear, my recommendation is that you just do it. And I think you are at the perfect time to begin. As I have recommended before on similar threads, I would suggest that, for the last 10 minutes or so of each practice session, you turn on your radio to a local "top-40" or "oldies" station and play along with whatever happens to be on. This is what my dad made me do almost from the time I started learning to play the clarinet. (Thanks again, Dad.) Try to play the melody, or to harmonize, or simply to play the rhythm on the bottom of the chord. At first it may be a little frustrating trying to find notes that fit with what you are hearing (by the time you find a note, it will usually be gone) but, if you stick with it, gradually, as you begin to hear songs for a second, third and fourth time, I think you will find that you begin to fit in a little better each time and begin to recognize and anticipate (i.e. "feel") chord changes. Certainly the more scales, arpeggios and exercises in thirds, fourths and fifths you know the easier this will be but I don't think they are sufficient in themselves.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-05-19 23:05
Although I'm a poor ear player, and thus can't speak from experience, I second what Jack says. I think the more technical you make it the more you're not playing by ear. I think good ear players don't analyze; they just "do".
Steve Epstein
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-05-19 23:30
Thanks Al, Bennett, Steve, jnk and Steve
It's good to know that some tunes are seemingly written differently to how we have learned them. In my case even encountering a melody in a different key to which I'm familiar throws me. In particular, in my student book, one of the examples is " God save the Queen" and it's difficult to imagine anything more familiar. That is written down early in the book in the wrong key ( presumably to make fingering easier), and I am completely thrown by that. Later on in the book it is repeated in the "correct" key- what a difference. I suppose I should be encouraged by the fact that it is so glaryingly obvious to me.
I certainly DO want to learn to play by ear, but clearly this will be a battle with my tutor, who has been trained from an early age in sight reading and playing, and doesn't seem to recognise any other method. In my case ( I am also nearing middle 60s btw) it's quite unlikely that I will ever be playing ( formally) with anyone else, so from that p.o.v. reading music is relatively unimportant. However if it is a useful tool in my "musical education", I certainly want to persevere.
Thank you all again
Clive
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Author: ginny
Date: 2007-05-20 02:11
Practice simple childrens songs. Look into Kodaly based singing methods which offer graduated songs, if you can get a book of those that are from your particular heritige (I have an Amerian version. )
For example "One, Two, tie my shoe" starts on the fifth note of the scale and uses the third note of the scale. Think of it as high and low. Just do it, pick out a children's tune every day, mistakes are ok. Listen for what the scale degree sound like and take a guess if the next note is far away or close. Just try it every day with a relaxed positive attitude and go for easy tunes to figure out at first.
Lois Choksy's "The Kodaly Method" was what I used as a basis for a guitar method I wrote for my pre-school students and my own children years ago. Basically they start with the ear and learn to hear, then read with internal hearing from the start. It had an appendix with 150 American folk songs in order of difficulty starting with "Starlight, Starbright" and other two note songs. Then a new note or rhythm is introduced. You mostly learn to hear with in the scale, but it does make playing by ear and reading with your inner ear natural when started in the young.
I can get things by ear, but not as well as my children who I trained using a Kodaly like method basically since birth. Learning the handsigns for the scales and singing some with the hand signs may help you as well.
http://www.classicsforkids.com/teachers/training/handsigns.asp
http://www.oake.org/php/kodalymethods.php
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Author: ginny
Date: 2007-05-20 02:12
You can also look for software which has you learn to play by ear. There are a couple out there as I recall.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2007-05-20 02:17
http://www.msu.edu/user/spangle9/etsoftware.html
This website seems to list a lot of eartraining programs. I think we had music ace at one time, it was ok. Rhythm ace was really nice.
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Author: Eileen
Date: 2007-05-21 02:59
Learned clarinet the traditional way when young (no ear training). As an adult, I learned to play guitar with folk training (no sheet music, only tablature once in awhile). One day, I realized that I could play most riffs and familiar tunes easily by ear on the guitar. With no clue about whether it was a 4th, 5th, whatever interval. My fingers know where to go. So it will come in its own course. For improvising and to develop your ear, find some slow-paced music with simple major chord progressions (I prefer folk/country) and noodle around until you figure out that certain notes in certain patterns fit.
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Author: Pathik
Date: 2007-05-21 08:14
There's a good online ear training tool at http://www.iwasdoingallright.com/tools/v2_17/ear_trainer.aspx
Unless you're naturally gifted, and don't have to worry about such matters, ear training is something you have to work at consistently, every day if possible. There are many ways of approaching this, and everybody has to find their own way, but I am convinced that the one thing that's more effective than anything else in training one's ear, so that one eventually becomes capable of playing "anything" by ear, is SINGING. I don't mean just tra-la-la humming along to any old song, but consciously trying to work with singing intervals, arpeggios, scales etc and also do sight-singing exercises. It doesn't matter if you think you can't sing, because the effort of trying to sing and to sing the right pitches will help you develop your abilities and will automatically train your ear. When you play your clarinet (or any other instrument for that matter), listen carefully and consciously to each note you're playing, listen for the special "quality" that each pitch has, and the sound of each interval.
I'd also like to recommend Bruce Arnold's ear training books "Ear training one note complete method" and "Fanatic's guide to ear training and sight singing vol 1". This method trains your sense of relative pitch (not absolute pitch), and there's enough material in these two books to keep you busy for years.
For the really adventurous, try transcibing music, like jazz solos, or any kind of music or tune really. When transcibing, you really have to listen and make a conscious effort to hear what the various pitches are (and also hear what the rhythmic pattern in each phrase is), so although this might seem very difficult (I admit I don't find it easy!), it's very useful ear training. I like to amuse myself by transcribing jazz solos, but find that I have to slow down the recording (while keeping the same pitch) in order to do it. I use a computer programme called Amazing Slow Downer to do this.
I also think that one's mental attitude is of crucial importance; if you can develop a strong belief in yourself and your abilities, and an absolute conviction that you can play your instrument very well, and that you can learn to play by ear, then it's going to be so much easier for you to actually learn to do it. You will still have to put all the effort in, all those countless hours of practice, but if you have a positive attitude to it and if you believe in yourself, everything will be so much easier - learn to play with it (like a child would), and maybe one day you'll play like a pro!
Post Edited (2007-05-21 08:40)
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-05-21 10:20
one method I have used is using a keyboard. YOu can alter the "tones" on a keyboard and it becomes "relatively" harder to play note for note.
Bb clarinet to Bb clarinet (being the same instrument) seems easier to play the same. Have the clarinet play the same notes as a tenor sax seems more difficult. So try a keyboard and try and play the same note, then vary the keyboard. Very good for ear and pitch training. I used to do this and be very good at it. But it all comes down to practicing alot.
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Author: Markael
Date: 2007-05-21 11:37
Yes, definitely use a keyboard! And if you don't know the notes on a keyboard, learn them.
Intervals on a keyboard have a certain look and a certain feel. Scales and chords have shapes, determined by the arrangement of white and black keys.
Three of your five senses work together when you use a keyboard.
My parents tell me that they gave me a toy xylophone when I was very small. I quickly learned to play some simple melodies on it. I believe there was an instruction book with a few tunes, and the rest I figured out on my own. By the time I started taking piano lessons I could play most any simple melody by ear.
Clarinet came a few years later, but by that time scales and chords were mapped out in my head as if on a keyboard.
Take a look at a baseball diamond. Most people automatically recognize where the bases are, and the pitcher's mound, and the outfield. Roll a pair of dice and you don't have to count the dots; you immediately recognize the number. If you have any knack for playing by ear it gets to be like that. You just know.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-05-21 14:21
I took formal clarinet lessons a couple of times during my life and never gave a serious thought to "playing by ear". But I had an uncle who used to come over and play the piano by ear which sort of amazed me. After many years I started playing by ear for my personal amusement and discovered some things I had never been taught.....like the fact that a Bb clarinet is a transposing instrument. I also became convinced that playing on a keyboard ...by ear....was a great learning tool. We should occasionally think about the fact that once upon a time all instruments were played "by ear".
Bob Draznik
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2007-05-21 19:10
This is a fascinating topic, because even though I don't have this problem myself a future student may come along with this problem. I hope this thread gets put into the ¨Keepers¨for future reference.
In our house we always were singing and whistling to tunes on the radio - those were the days when the singing was a lot simpler and you could actually follow the tune! We always tried to doodle on the piano keyboard, and were able to play by ear no matter what key the song was in, and change key at will.
So the concept of someone interested in playing musice but not being able to play by ear is foreign to me...shouldn't be though because now to think about it my husband doesn't have a clue if one note is higher or lower than another. He never was interested in playing anything so I always thought that someone like him wouldn't be interested in taking lessons.
It's good to have all the interesting responses in order to patiently help someone else through the learning process once the need arises.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-05-23 00:04
Hi Clive, First.... Amazing grace.....the E D version seems right to me....the G A occurs later in the phrase. I would suggest you use lyrics also in the singing. If you played the trumpet singing the phrase first is very important. I would second the idea of singing some childrens songs. Usually the melody doesn't have too many leaps and is easy to sing. Next I would try to play tunes in a key that is easy to see the note relationships. ie If you play "Row Row Row Your boat" starting on C# it will be a confusing task. On the clarinet the easiest keys might be F or G major. That way you're not going over the break area of the clarinet. The problem with tunes is that it depends where they start in the key. Amazing Grace starts on V..or 5 or Soh of the key. Already you have problems if you pick F or G major as that means starting on C for (F major) or D for (G major) Both these choices put you over the bridge area on the clarinet. As it turns out C major is the easier key....starting note is low G on clarinet. In a nutshell. Pick a key that is easy on the clarinet. Know the starting note....whether it starts on Do, mi etc. I would also do a bit of piano. On the piano play all songs in the key of C. This will give a idea how the melody fits around the tonic or Do. I'm sure all this is as clear as mud..... one more bit of mud..... do the reverse process.....Play three notes on the clarinet and then try to sing those notes. Go back and forth with this. All the best John
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: allencole
Date: 2007-05-23 15:48
Much of this advice is WAY too esoteric! Ginny and James provide the most practical avenues.
SIMPLE SONGS will do the trick, and we had a thread on that subject a while back. Many of my students (including rank beginners) play by ear at their first lesson. If you know one major scale, you've got what you need. Just make sure that your FINGERS know it without help from your brain.
Mary Had A Little Lamb is the ultimate beginner tune for good reason. Don't pass it by if you need ear training. (starts on note #3 of the scale)
Jingle Bells (chorus) and Three Blind Mice are handy when you're ready to jump around a little (both also starting on note #3 of the scale)
Personally, I find that beginners can handle songs like The First Noel, Ode to Joy (Beethoven's 9th) and My Country Tis/God Save the Queen if they are able to hum them.
(MEGA-RULE: Only try to play songs that you can accurately hum.)
Joy to the World would seem an obvious choice, but I find that many students are not yet ready to deal with the repeated notes. They want too much to move their fingers each time.
Clive, remember 2 facts and 2 rules, when using a scale to help you play by ear:
Fact 1 - Almost ALL songs end on note #1 of the major scale. (First Noel is a notable exception)
Fact 2 - Almost ALL songs begin on notes 1, 3 or 5 of the major scale. (so learning a major arpeggio could be a tremendous help in finding the starting points of various songs) Not sure what your starting note is? Hum the end of the song and then start the next verse!
Rule 1 - Notes do three things in a song. They go up, they go down, and they repeat themselves. If you're not sure which way to go, hum the song and your vocal muscles will set you straight.
Rule 2 - When notes go up or down, they usually go up or down to the nearest possible note in the major scale. Always try this first. If it doesn't work, try the next furthest note, etc.
And most of all, don't forget the concept of Trial and Error. You gain your experience by guessing at the notes and should not be frustrated if you make some mistakes--it's called the process of elimination.
Beware of looking for formulas to apply mentally in this process. You need to develop a feel for the horn, and this can be upset by all the calculations going on in your brain. Don't worry too much about the science of it. Just start doing it, and your ear will get a lot of training from the natural process of problem-solving.
You will also get better advice here as your questions become more specific and we can see what your experiences are.
Allen Cole
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-05-23 17:11
John:
No it was very clear honestly! Thanks for the clarification for Amazing Grace. I confirm that my sheet music starts on G. I'm sure that you are right, it's just that the way it's written and you have validated, is just not the way I have heard it sung, and that simply throws me. Yes I know I should play what's written not what I think should be written but that's hard!
The early pieces in my tutor are either in C or F, as you have recommended. Some of them however seem deliberately to use other than the first verse of the song, and again that throws me.
Allen:
You are absolutely right that the brain should not be involved. In fact I am even trying to eliminate the note name from my thought process, i.e. go straight from the ledger line to the fingering, and where achieved this seems to have improved "translation" speed.
An analogue is in the learning of Morsed code, which I did 40+ years ago. When you start you just hear dots and dashes, and have to translate those to a letter of the alphabet, and write it down as fluently as you would if writing ( say) a letter. Initially the extra translation process slows matters down, and all you can do is print each letter. Since I am now about as proficient as one can get at the game, I "hear" letters, and if e.g I am asked what is the combination of dots and dashes of a particular letter of the alphabet, I actually have to stop and think before giving my answer, because that is just not how it sounds to me. At my stage in the game I even hear words like "the" or "that" as a pattern which is instantly recognised. Since each of the 26 letters of the alphabet comprise up to 4 dots or dashes ( and the ten numerals even more), that is an awful lot of information that the brain is processing, and therefore reading music and fingering shouldn't be any problem. Of course at present it most certainly is!
Your two rules and facts are interesting and instructive. I suppose that I did know fact 1, but it's helpful to see it actually stated in print. Why oh why does this not appear in instructional texts; rhetorical question of course.
Of course it's when your rule 2 is broken ( which it sometimes is even in my student stuff) that I have most trouble, as I have to do some rapid mental calculation of the next finger position, which is not yet sufficiently intuitive. This will come I'm sure.
You are clearly right that it is helpful to have the lyrics printeed along with the music as a crutch, and I am surprised that only perhaps 25/30% is configured in this way in my student books. Why is it so hard to provide this; another rhetorical question!
You are also right that I shouldn't be too scientific in my approach, but as a trained scientist it is very difficult to escape this process.
Thanks again all
Clive
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-05-23 18:46
> Rule 1 - Notes do three things in a song. They go up, they go down,
> and they repeat themselves. If you're not sure which way to go, hum
> the song and your vocal muscles will set you straight.
Good diea, and for some people it is even then hard in the beginning, so you can put your hand on your throat. You can actually feel the muscles with your hand and get used to how they move when going up and down.
> And most of all, don't forget the concept of Trial and Error. You gain
> your experience by guessing at the notes and should not be frustrated
> if you make some mistakes--it's called the process of elimination.
I disagree with this (along with rule 2). Imo it is best if you can do all the calculations in your head, even if it takes you a very long time to do them, so you can play the correct note on your first try. This will make your brain practice and eventually be able to do all calculations much faster, so fast that it's just intuitive. The guessing method doesn't really help all options and it's too specific. The next best thing, if you really can't calculate in your head, is to calculate by singing outloud. Only if even that doesn't work you then try to guess on the instrument.
Post Edited (2007-05-24 04:47)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2007-05-24 06:42
Clive, a lot of the problem you'll find with the discussion of ear training is that the more literate the musician discussing it, the less experience that person probably has in depending on it. I wonder what some of our fixed-Do college ear training programs would be like if annual proficiency tests were required for all music faculty?
Like Clarnibass and so many of the others here, I learned at an early age to think through songs and figure out the pitches. But this was after growing up with a parent who could play by ear as well as read, experience playing both clarinet and guitar, and experience reading parts in an adult church choir--all by the eighth grade. That's a lot of background work to ask of a musician in the early stages of their learning process.
Plus, all this process then meets the instrument as a stranger. A world full of non-reading musicians have shown us the way, if we will only be willing to learn from them.
I regularly turn out begining players who have decent proficiency in playing by ear, and much of it was started to illustrate to them the usefulness of their scales. Early work in reverse-engineering pitches (and later rhythms) provides benefits that far outweigh the potential of waiting for a more advanced approach later on. If I where to be too esoteric in their ear training or their theory instruction, there would be no room for either in an instrumental lesson program. Keeping things simple and practical cause these same things to integrate with and enhance instrumental technique.
I still say, LEARN SONGS NOW. This will lead to natural interval learning. Getting from the end note of one verse to the beginning note of the next begins a progressive approach to identifying intervals, and utilizes your most common technical skills.
Think of passing your tangled hair through progressively finer combs.
Your major arpeggio is the afro comb. Very wide spacing allows the inexperienced to match common notes (1,3 & 5 as the most common beginning notes) , or the occasional note that comes in between them.
Your major scale is the normal comb. It contains the seven most likely notes for most common music, and the five least likely notes can be found in between various pairs of the seven.
Your chromatic scale is the fine comb, but will mostly be used to confirm info that has been produced from comparing to the major scale.
After some confidence building in this area, a song like "Do Re Mi" or "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas" can be used as a lab where students oversimply the song, and then begin to realize that the bridge doesn't sound quite right and needs some non-scale notes.
Why put off your ear activities in favor of studying intervals when you can discover it all by reverse engineering a rich world of common-knowledge songs?
On your Morse Code comparision:
The "hear the letter" (as opposed to counting the dots and dashes) method of morse code instruction seems to be the dominant one today. I learned via a packet that would send characters at rates of 5-15 wpm, but the speed of each individual character was 20 wpm. This was intended to prevent me from counting dots & dashes, and force me to recognize the character as a unit. It was the most effective method I ever tried and I believe that the ARRL adopted this methoc for their own packages.
I believe that scales and arpeggios (particuarly arpeggios) are handy to work as a single character. Students can be taught to do some neat things with arpeggios if they can do so without getting into levels of detail that hinder execution.
I agree with Clarnibass that a more detailed examination of intervals, etc. provides more complete coverage of the situation, but I would consider that an advanced study, not a basic one when instrumental performance is part of the package.
Allen Cole
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Author: Markael
Date: 2007-05-24 15:35
Allen is onto something when he says to start right away with ear training.
Music is aural. Written sheet music is code to identify the musical sounds we produce and hear.
I also like the analogy of the three types of combs. Now, tell me, what is the best way to represent those “combs” musically? Why, on the piano keyboard, of course! You can see and feel how far apart the keys you are playing are spaced; while at the very the same time you can hear the sound.
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-05-25 11:27
Allen
Thanks for your further comments. It will be boring for most readers, but the method you describe for learning Morse code, is called the Farnsworth method. The overall speed of code produced is low, but the individual letters are sent at a higher speed to encourage pattern recognition, but with a consequently greater interval between letters to let the brain " rest"! Of course proficiency in the code is now ( recently) not a requirement of the FCC to obtain a ticket in the USA, mirrored in most parts of the world. The U.K. has been that way for about 5 years or so now to reflect international regulations. I can sort of relate these developments to playing a musical instrument. Many people love music and listen to it intently and often quite expertly. However, recent researck in the U.K. has shown that if asked what talent people would most like to have, the overwhelming favourite is to be able to play a musical instrument. Of course this takes effort, training, and dedication, sadly not talents found widely in our "couch potato" cultures in the West < / SOAPBOX>!
I am encouraged by your approach, and will certainly therefore persevere in trying to play simple tunes by ear, whilst simultaneously following more conventional reading practices. I think it would be circumspect for me not to say too much about this to my teacher ( only on my fourth lesson btw) since he is imbued with classical reading techniques, and does not recognise the process of playing by ear at all.
Markael, I also like your description of written music as code to describe the music we make and hear.
Clive
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Author: Carson
Date: 2013-09-21 06:21
I think another aspect of playing by ear needs touching on. (Didn't read every post.)
Some people just have a knack for being able to create music on the fly.
When I was younger, I hung out with a guitar player that had an uncanny ability while jamming to take the tune in new directions. He would come up with the best stuff naturally.
Once I was showing him my clarinet and he asked me how to play a scale. From that little bit of knowledge he was able to go off on it playing some incredible stuff. It was really disgusting!
I can read music so I can pretend I can play my horn. He just seems to have it built in.
I often daydream of getting together with him again for a music lesson. The dreams never include him touching my instruments. :-) Someday maybe I'll get good enough and get back together with him and be able to get something out of another lesson.
Then again maybe your just born with it. ?
Post Edited (2013-09-21 06:34)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-09-21 12:17
I'm always surprised to eventually discover that I'm reading posts from several years back. On this one I was especially surprised to see Don Berger posting.
Thanks Carson.......and I wonder how Clive is progressing!
Bob Draznik
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2013-09-21 14:01
I'm also very surprised at reading old posts. I can't believe how bad my post was back then. My guess is I'm just as confusing now.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Carson
Date: 2013-09-21 15:19
You can blame reading the old post on Google I suppose.
I'm also trying to learn to play by ear better so I did a search on the topic. This thread came up and seems very helpful.
I recently started doing one of the things mentioned. I'm breaking one of my rules and I have my oldest clarinet set up by the television so I can try and play along. It's wood and I know leaving it wet is terrible for it.
Actually the reason I came back to this thread this morning is I was thinking about another aspect of playing by ear.
The wall!
You know how when your just doodling along whistling and someone can shut you down by joining in whistling off key or a new tune? You can shut someone down doing this also. Somehow it erects a wall. I suppose you stop to listen to be able to join back in. Maybe if they are just messing with you it isn't going to happen.
Well I find myself against this wall often trying to play along by ear. Nothing seems to come to me and if it does it doesn't seem to fit. I can play with others reading music without the wall. Try and improvise and there it is again. I can't really understand how to break it down.
I'm hoping getting better playing by ear will help me over it or around it.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-09-22 12:24
Carson...I'd like to recommend a book that has helped me a lot in many ways:
"The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory" by Michael Miller. I now have both editions. I'm working on "intervals" now, trying to embed them in my brain.
Your comment on "shutting down" makes me think of people who are on their cell phones while driving. They must be shutting down some aspect of their driving alertness. I think perhaps what you are experiencing is that what you are trying to play along with is in a different key and you don't realize it. You're trying to play along in "C" and they are playing 4 sharps.
Bob Draznik
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The Clarinet Pages
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