 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-05-18 03:24
Having just finished listening to a number of the advanced clarinet players in my geographic area, and although the chromatic scale issue hasn't appreciably improved (see: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=244486&t=244486) a new problem seems to be common among most students, more than ever before.
They are using reeds which are much too hard for their chosen mouthpiece.
As a result, very few have the ease of control in soft passages, clean tonguing in rapid passages, and immediate note response. As a result of too stiff reeds, the core of their sound is vacant.
I think that many teachers (and students) are trying to achieve a "dark" sound by playing hard reeds. Instead, all they are getting is a diffuse sound which spreads, has no center and very little projection.
Yes - we all want a sound which is rich, round (oops - not a good word) and not edgy or shrill. But, by playing reeds which are too firm, these students are going completely in the opposite direction.
Teachers - listen to your students - not just up close, but from a distance. See if their sound has color, projection and a good tonal center.
If not, think about moving the reed strength lower.
It's a lot cheaper than buying a new mouthpiece...GBK
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-05-18 03:36
for this reason i carry with me a selection of Legere reeds (while i don't personally play on them, my experience is that they sound better than 90% of the reeds students use).
I will suggest that a student play a whole lesson on one that is softer/harder than their current setup- the student is often amazed at the result they can get with a well balanced reed. With a softer reed than usual, they are now able to take more mouthpiece into the mouth... with a harder reed they can support from the diaphragm and don't need to "hold the sound" in their throat.... (if they had become too used to overly soft reeds). It usually only take the student about 10 min to work out that my assesment is correct.
donald
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2007-05-18 06:49
I am, in my first year of college, still recovering from all of the bad habits I picked up in high school by trying to play reeds that were too hard, making my sound stuffy and spread. First thing my teacher did in college was to move me down from Gonzalez FOF #4 to Vandoren V12 #3.5, which brightened my tone a little at first, but the range of tone colors, dynamics and articulations possible with the softer reeds opened my eyes to everything I had been doing wrong for so long. I've since moved up to V12 #4, but now with the right embouchure and airstream (approximately - good embouchure is not so much a destination as a journey of self-discovery).
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-05-18 12:39
> They are using reeds which are much too hard for their chosen mouthpiece...
We were all doing it when I was learning in the 80s. Kind of a macho thing, I remember.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-05-18 12:53
GBK,
you've got it all wrong. all high school kids know that the quality of your playing is directly related to the reed strength. so a player that uses a 4 is 33% better (at least) than a player that uses a 3.
very simple math.
but really, I do think that the obsession with numbers and the fact that all other parts of our culture encourage muscular strength plays a huge role in this. 'if we use a harder reed we are stronger, right? and being strong is a good thing, right?'
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-18 12:53
Shouldn't the thread title read 'STUPID reed mistake'?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2007-05-18 13:03
The funny part of the story is that this problem exists in all countries all over the world.
Maybe we just need to reverse the numbers? Number 1 is number 5, number 2 is number 4 etc? Because I find it pretty damned hard to blow one a number 1 reed
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-18 13:15
Or do like what Vandoren used to do - leave the reeds themselves un-numbered!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-05-18 13:18
Chris P wrote:
> Or do like what Vandoren used to do - leave the reeds
> themselves un-numbered!
Ahh...the good old days. When you could ask for a box of Vandoren "medium" reeds, open it, and pick out just the ones you wanted...GBK
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-18 13:21
Playing on a shingle is ever so manly. Order #5 reeds (don't forget to inhale and to pull your belly in at the checkout) and clandestinely sand 'em down to a comfy #2.5, then brag in some BBoard with "I'm doin' my own reeds."
Has the ban on "whatever works for you" been lifted in the meantime?
--
Ben
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-05-18 13:35
I think that there are issues where many younger students gravitate to harder reeds for a variety of reasons. There are many misconceptions.
Some mistakenly think as you progress, you need to go to a harder reed and that harder is better. Many younger players, rather than use the embouchure to control the reed, prefer to put the resistance in the set up, thinking it is easier to control. As GBK suggests, this leads to a number of other issues. There are problems in acheiving dynamics, tonal clarity, varied colors, articulation, playing longer phrases, projection, etc.
I believe that the concept of removing the higher harmonics from the clarinet sound is also part of the issue. The clarinet may sound good up close, but lacks the presence needed out in the hall.
Of course, this is not always limited to younger players. You will hear seasoned players who do the same as well.
It is a great lesson to listen to the legendary Harold Wright. You can hear all of the greatest qualities of clarinetistry. In close listening you detect that his reed was completely free and responsive. It allowed him complete flexibility to transcend the instrument.
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Author: MichaelR
Date: 2007-05-18 14:25
This raises some interesting points for never ending discussion. The first question that comes to my mind from GBK's original post was "how would they go about determining the right reed strength for their combination of mouthpiece, embrochure, everything else?"
My next step in answering the question follows.
I've been playing for a year and a half and have a consistent problem with altissimo notes. High G and A are not much of a problem, but after that point I have no consistency. Typically I either don't produce sound, overblow, or create a piercing tone that (in my opinion) is best left unplayed.
Last weekend I went through my collection of reeds to do some experimenting. With a Rico 2 I could play any note I knew the fingerings for. The tone was nasty, but I could get the notes. With my standard Vandoren 3 anything above a high A was iffy. I haven't figured out where in the middle ground the right thing is for me. I also realize the problem lies with my embrochure, but I want to be sure I use a reed that doesn't get in the way.
My teacher has long asserted, and restated at my lesson this week, that I _must_ play a strength 3 reed. The support of that strength reed is needed for higher registers.
Legere synthetic reeds have long been of interest. Something that stable might be beneficial by providing a consistent platform to play on. After reading Donald's post I ordered three in different strengths. We'll see how I develop with them over the next few weeks.
What suggestions would you give to a developing player for determining the right reed?
--
Michael of Portland, OR
Be Appropriate and Follow Your Curiosity
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-05-18 15:20
I was glad to see this topic addressed.
What GBK described is exactly what I encountered when I was volunteering a few years ago in my local elementary school. The teacher (university grad in clarinet) wanted her students to go up to a reed strength that they were not ready for to "improve their tone".
Mostly this made it more difficult to learn to play and discouraged them.
Hans
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2007-05-18 15:43
GBK- how do you know that the reeds were too hard rather than being not properly balanced? I'm not sure I could hear that- the audible effect would be similar- spread airy sound, unclear articulation, etc. Did you actually quiz the students about the reed strength than they had and the mouthpiece that they used?
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-05-18 15:51
Liquorice- good point
Sometimes, I find even in my own set up, a reed that feels/sounds too hard is merely too hard on one side or at one point. In addition, some of those characteristics can often be due to a warped reed, which many of the students are unaware of.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-05-18 16:26
Liquorice wrote:
> how do you know that the reeds were too hard
> rather than being not properly balanced?
Certainly a possibility, but the few students whom I questioned about their set up, were using Vandoren mouthpieces with reeds that were higher than the recommended strengths. (ex. - B45 with a Vandoren #4) ...GBK
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-05-18 17:37
one of the issues i see is band directors driving all the kids towards having the same instrument, same ligature, same mouthpiece, and same brand/strength of reed. band directors control their grades, so they do what they're told, in some cases overriding the private teacher's advice.
i know, they all wear the same size of marching shoe too...
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2007-05-18 18:11
I am enjoying this thread. I will agree with GBK in one respect - no one should play on reeds that are too hard. However, unlike many of you, I also believe that some reeds are too soft. And what is too hard and too soft changes from player to player and is also dependent on the mouthpiece. The fact that some people are playing reeds that are too hard (which causes a stuffy sound and biting problems) does not mean that every teacher and every student should consider going softer. Nor does the fact that some great players prefer soft reeds mean that all great players play soft reeds.
I found this remark, though made in jest, spot on - "being strong is a good thing, right?"
What Skygardener thinks of as flippant, I accept as axiomatic. The stronger your embouchure, the better you play. To drive the point home, how many of you play as well in your third straight hour of practice as you did in your first? Tired lips don't play as well as fresh lips. In terms of the point at contention - stronger lips play better than weaker lips.
One way to increase embouchure strength (and just as importantly, the stomach muscles that actually push the air) is to, over time, use harder reeds. Anyone familiar with strength training would understand this as "progressive resistance".
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-05-18 18:23
"one of the issues i see is band directors driving all the kids towards having the same instrument, same ligature, same mouthpiece, and same brand/strength of reed. band directors control their grades, so they do what they're told, in some cases overriding the private teacher's advice.
i know, they all wear the same size of marching shoe too..."
Yap... Teachers can get away with *alot* more things than a Private teacher can... (After you see my band teacher, you'll def. see what i mean....)
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-05-18 19:11
most of what they're told in band is good - dont get me wrong, the band directors do an awesome job - i just dont like the one size fits all concept.
if i say stay on a #3.5 and a band director says 'use #4' - i lose that arguement every time.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-18 19:20
pewd wrote:
> I know, they all wear the same size of marching shoe too...
Now I finally know what George Lucas had in mind when he made "Attack of the Clones"...
--
Ben
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2007-05-18 20:09
I know a good swing band player (50 years as a semi-pro) who uses a 1.5 and a mouthpiece with a huge tip opening so he can get the required volume - based on his experience playing for 1000 people in a dance hall before amplification!
Chris
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Author: MichaelR
Date: 2007-05-18 20:59
Paul wrote:
> if i say stay on a #3.5 and a band director says 'use #4' - i lose that arguement every time.
And your students can't hear the difference? How are you trying to convince them of the benefit of staying with the 3.5?
--
Michael of Portland, OR
Be Appropriate and Follow Your Curiosity
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-05-18 21:09
a passage from the kell studies , played softly and quickly, usually shows them a difference. but if a band director says 'do this...', they will, regardless.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: tdinap
Date: 2007-05-20 03:07
It's a shame that some band directors are too ignorant/proud/lazy to defer to private teachers on matters as personal as what strength reed to use. I have had directors who make generalized suggestions, such as "you should all try playing #3 reeds" and the like, but they never forced anyone to do something that hindered their playing significantly, and they generally wouldn't fight a private teacher over the matter. Actually, I think the last time a band director made a suggestion about reed strength to me was in middle school. Then again, I've been lucky enough to have some very good band directors who, while not clarinetists, understand that they are not the definitive authority on clarinet-related issues. It's also slightly different in schools in my area, as we didn't have the option to take band as a full-on class until high school, so there's not much grade-related fear instilled in the students.
To go back to the original topic, though, I find it very interesting that this was posted now--I myself have been thinking for a few weeks about trying some softer reeds. I've been using V12 3.5's on a 5RV, and I recently realized that I just don't have the control and response I want unless I'm playing the softest reed in the box. I'll probably order some 3's to see if that can help the situation a bit, although I'm mildly worried that they'll be too soft for the mouthpiece, for which Vandoren recommends strength 3.5-4. I already have some Traditional 3's on order, which I believe are supposed to be just a tiny bit softer than V12 3.5's (although probably too close to consistently tell the difference, given the amount of variation in your average box of Vandorens).
Tom
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Author: voggorb
Date: 2007-05-20 13:32
> To go back to the original topic, though, I find it very
> interesting that this was posted now--I myself have been
> thinking for a few weeks about trying some softer reeds. I've
> been using V12 3.5's on a 5RV, and I recently realized that I
> just don't have the control and response I want unless I'm
> playing the softest reed in the box.
This is EXACTLY what I am experiencing now. I also play V12 3.5 (though on a Grabner K14), and I am struggling a lot with my reeds. Usually only the softest ones in the box play nice, and I can get clean tones in all registers (throat tones are the biggest difference) without a lot of effort. The rest of the reeds (unless they are bad) give me a very nice covered/round sound but requires a lot of effort and it's hard for me to play at pp. And since I'm also struggling with articulation - especially above the break - these reeds sometimes make me so frustrated that I won't practise!
When reeding what I just wrote it seems pretty obvious that I should go down in reed strength to 3 instead of 3.5, but I'm afraid of my tone becoming more shrill and edgy, sometimes even buzzy like a bee which I have experienced with soft reeds..
And also, I LOVE Eddie Daniel's tone, and he plays V12 4.5 reeds which he scrapes down to 4, and it seems I would be going in the wrong direction by moving down in strength as I want to sound more like him.. But maybe I still should go down to V12 3, and focus on improving my embouchure to keep a round sound.. What do you think?
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-05-20 14:35
voggorb,
You asked --> I think you should go down in reed strength. Try a stiffer reed occasionally. Eventually you may find that the softer reed no longer feels right to you and the need for going to the next stiffer reed will be intuitively obvious.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-05-20 14:38
Actually I expect a /new/ reed to be a bit hard. You play them in the practice room, for a few minutes at a time. It breaks them in, it toughens you up a bit. A reed that plays straight out of the box is too soft - it'll settle after an hour or so and be no good. Having said that, a reed that's still too hard after an hour or so is a too-hard reed.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-05-20 16:16
I think a certain sort of legend works against young or beginning clarinetists. You hear that Harold Wright played #5 reeds and you think, Gosh, that has to it. That has to be the right thing to do.
Lately I've been reading stories that jazzers used hard reeds ... on wide-open mouthpieces!!! OK.
The problem is resolved for me medically. With two abdominal hernias in my past, I cannot endure too much blowing resistance.
Bill.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-05-20 18:07
Voggorb,
Just cause you go down in reed strength doesn't mean your tone must suffer. I find that I can make a very soft reed sound just as good as my 'normal' strength reed. However it usually takes a softer embouchure on my part and much more air going through the instrument.
I actually PREFER a slightly softer reed than what I should probably be playing. Just so I can vary the sound. I have the OPTION of sounding a little harsh and edgy during certain parts of pieces if I so choose, instead of playing a harder reed, still getting a nice sound, but not being able to vary my sound.
ALSO, you can also 'change' the strength of a reed with your embouchure placement and ligature placement. If the reed seems a little soft, take in slightly more reed and/or move your ligature up towards the top of the mouthpiece. I have two ligatures that I switch around in order to manipulate the reed strength. I use a slightly soft reed for the mouthpiece, with a ligature that 'deadens' the sound of the reed. It seems (at least to my over-analyzing ears) to make it retain the instant response and articulation of a soft reed, while deadening the harshness of the sound leaving me with a pretty good sounding, well-responding setup.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2007-05-20 18:55
Must be a different culture -- LI, NY vs FX, VA! Competitions I have adjudicated down here have seen more students playing reeds that are too soft (usually Mitchell Lurie!) than too hard reeds.
My pet peeve here is school band directors who hit the ceiling when kids come in playing on Legere (plastic) reeds "OK for marching band, but don't let me see you playing this in Symphonic Band again!" I guess even though the quality of some plastic reeds has improved close to the quality of cane reeds, the lessons these bozos learned in their college "woodwind methods" classes are fixed for life. Same thing with "flip" fingering throat F-F# in chromatic scales: even though most pro clarinetists I know now use the flip fingering instead of 2 side keys, most of these educators adamantly tell the kids that they are "doing it wrong."
Educators in some disciplines are required by their school districts to periodically take refresher courses in their subjects. Does this apply at all to band teachers?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-05-20 19:05
Larry -
The beginners (1st, 2nd and 3rd years) often do play with reeds that are too soft, but I attribute that to 2 factors:
1. They play on reeds well past their usefulness. Using the SAME reed (without taking it off the mouthpiece) for weeks/months at a time. "Hey...it still plays and isn't cracked"
2. Teachers who initially start their student on a #1 1/2 or #2 reed, and the student continuing to play the same strength for the next 3 years.
However, the advanced players who I was referring to are those who try to darken their sound (take off the edge) by using reeds which are much too stiff for their mouthpiece.
As a result - control, focus and quality of sound suffer greatly...GBK
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-20 19:23
> reeds that are too soft (usually Mitchell Lurie!)
ISTR that Vandoren's are 1/4 to 1/2 notch stiffer than some others with the same nominal size. So if the teacher says "use a #3 reed" (having a VD in mind) and the student buys a #3 ML or RR etc, then I'm not at all surprised they appear too soft.
--
Ben
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Author: tdinap
Date: 2007-05-20 21:58
"You hear that Harold Wright played #5 reeds and you think, Gosh, that has to it."
Did he really play #5's? For some reason I had a feeling he played on soft to medium reeds, but maybe it was just an assumption based on his unbelievable control. I've heard he practiced standing up for huge amounts of time, though, so I suppose it makes sense that his chops would get that strong. I guess I'd better run out and get some 5's!
I can confirm that pretty much everything GBK has said is quite true. In my high school, the beginners and the kids whose only exposure to clarinet was through school band invariably played the same ridiculously soft reed until it was either moldy or broken--often a period of two months or more. On the other hand, auditions for honor bands and the like always used to drive me nuts; as someone said before, the strength of your reed seemed to become a measure of how good a player you were. I don't think they were even consciously trying to "darken their sound" or do anything to that effect, it seemed to be mainly that they wanted to brag that they had the chops to play a two by four.
Tom
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2007-05-20 22:58
The ten years that Harold Wright was my colleague (1960-1970) he did indeed play #5 reeds, but with a very close facing Kaspar mouthpiece -- tip opening about 101. I know he used Vandoren reeds, but I think he also dabbled with Moree reeds, too.
GBK -- it's not just the beginners I find using too-soft reeds, but also some of the high school kids playing grade 5 and 6 solos. And some of them are from the studios of popular local private teachers.
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-05-21 14:57
Michael of Portland,
The Legerre synthetic reeds are a good option, but they work best with very close facing mouthpieces. A 3.25 or 3.5 Quebec cut works well on a Richard Hawkins B blank (tip opening about 95, short facing). The harder strengths don't vibrate very well, and these reeds don't seem to be a good match for the medium to long facing Vandoren mouthpieces.
Another option is to get a teacher to show you how to balance your cane reeds. Legerres are a good option if you don't want to go through that trouble, as long as you have a mouthpiece that fits the reed. I have a teacher friend who has all her band kids use them and it has eliminated sound problems due to not knowing how to balance and pretreat the cane reeds. Maybe I'll have some of my advanced kids try the same to see if it helps. They do get frustrated with reeds sometimes.
Good luck, hope this helps.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-05-22 03:20
JessKateDD- "What Skygardener thinks of as flippant, I accept as axiomatic. The stronger your embouchure, the better you play." And "One way to increase embouchure strength (and just as importantly, the stomach muscles that actually push the air) is to, over time, use harder reeds."
I would like to ask you- what is the relation between having strong muscles and making a good sound?
Having healthy, toned muscles that are firm and supple is a good thing, but simply having **more powerful** muscles has no relation to the quality of sound that you make. If it were true, then all great musicians would be big, burley men, as they all have more powerful muscles.
Muscles are tools for manipulating the instrument. Using the comparison of tools- Having a bigger screwdriver and a bigger saw does not mean that you can make a better chair.
The tools must fit the purpose for which you use them.
-----------
As to the idea of band directors giving everyone the same mouthpiece and reed- I am not really against this idea. It is not ideal, but the band directors have a bunch of kids (on every instrument, not just clarient), many of which have no interest in playing music after High School, many of which do not practice at home. In this situation, is it better/easier/more time wise/etc. to give everyone the same equippment. It eliminates a lot of variables. If you've got 10 players with 10 different instruments with 10 different mouthpieces and 10 different reeds and they are squeaking, where do you start? But if you have 10 kids playing the same clarinet, mouthpiece, reed it is a little easier to deal with.
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-05-22 07:38
i would just like to point out that in my posting above i didn't intend to promote the use of Legere reeds- i use them (in my teaching) to evaluate what strength reed is suitable for a player, and to demonstrate to young players how great it is to play a good reed (young players who insist on using the 1 year old 1.5 rico that is chipped and mouldy are often amazed at how much pleasureable the whole experience is when hey get a good reed)
it also, of course, makes MY DAY nicer if i don't need to listen to the 1 year old mouldy chipped rico 1.5!!!!!!
I don't use Legere reeds in public performance or rehearsal, and seldom for practise and teaching. I believe this is because the cut doesn't suit me- past experience has proven to me that the material they are made from has the potential to sound great.
donald
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-05-23 11:48
"As to the idea of band directors giving everyone the same mouthpiece and reed-"
Throughout the early days of the School Band program there was no regimentation regarding instruments. Each member provided his own equipment...at least for the Bb sop clarinets and there was no attempt by most Directors to mandate reeds, horns etc etc. The result was some excellent performances. I do not buy the theory that having the clarinet section members play identical equipment represents progress or excellence.
Bob Draznik
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-05-23 11:54
BobD wrote:
> "As to the idea of band directors giving everyone the same
> mouthpiece and reed-"
Although on saxophone, I've seen identical twins who did not find the same mouthpiece/reed combination satisfactory.
One size definitely does not fit all...GBK
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-05-23 13:11
BobD-
It may be different in different states, distrects, etc. but when I was in high school band in the '90s everyone was issued the same mouthpiece by the band teacher. We were given 3 or 3.5 reeds to choose from. IF you wanted to use something else it was ok, BUT if you didn't know or care then you would get the economic mouthpiece that the teacher decided.
I think it is a good system. Let's remember that not all of the kids care to be the next star pro musician.
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