 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-05-06 01:02
Pretty much in the title. I mean blue needle springs don't have a little notch at the end to keep the spring in place so the spring doesn't catch onto anything. so how on earth do they set up the springs? Weld it in?
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-05-06 01:29
cut the spring to length, then you flatten the end of the spring on a jewler's anvil, creating a little flat notch, then you press the spring into the post using a spring pilers
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-05-06 01:38
How do you flatten the end?
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-05-06 01:42
pewd wrote:
> cut the spring to length, then you flatten the end of the
> spring on a jewler's anvil, creating a little flat notch,
> then you press the spring into the post using a spring pilers
And don't forget to wear eye protection...GBK
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-05-06 01:47
Hold the spring flat on the jeweler's anvil and tap it with a small hammer until it flattens out a little. This flattened end will hold the spring in place as it wedges tightly in the hole in the post. Eu
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-05-06 02:51
>How do you flatten the end?
with a hammer.
yes what gbk said, glasses or goggles.
and i firmly close my eyes when snipping the spring, or place a towel over my hands prior to cutting them
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-05-06 04:40
the more eye protection the better. I have a full face visor that I also use for soldering. the goggles often fog up.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-05-06 06:41
I kinda got the gist of it. Didn't quite make sense as if you laid the spring flat on the "anvil" or just any flat metal surface, the spring would slide away when you would hit the end with the hammer. is your left hand holding down the pin or are you sandwiching the spring with the anvil in order for you to pound the spring?
those blue needle springs should come pre bent in those repair kits. the steel ones already do, why not the blue steel?
there's no instructions for the blue steel springs in kits either. thanks for the tips.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-06 09:49
You only place the blunt (or cut) end on the anvil to flatten it. Make sure you have the length right before you cut it and then flatten it - there's nothing worse than seeing an instrument with needle springs that are miles too long, or have a blunt end on the free end rather than the needle point.
They inflict less damage by accidental stabbing when they're sharp than if they're blunt.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-05-06 11:40
A jeweler's anvil is very small, only about 4" square and an inch high. I put the anvil near the edge of the workbench and secure it to the bench with a C-clamp. That way I can place the needle spring with the point facing toward me, reach in and hold the sharp end of the needle spring with a pair of pliers to keep the spring from rolling (with my hand below the level of the workbench, in other words, so that the needle lays flat on the anvil) and bash the other end once, hard, with a heavy but small-sized hammer. That usually does the trick without bending the needle.
Also, there's no reason the sharp end has to be so lethal: I blunt it by clipping the tip with a wire-cutter. It's that sharp because it really is a needle with the eye-end cut off. I know because in every batch of 100, a couple will still have the eye! I've tried buying needles in fabric stores, but it's hard to find good sizes in plain steel that can be blued. If you can find plain steel, you blue the needles (temper them) by heating them red-hot. Let them cool very slowly or else they'll be brittle. I've decided that blueing my own is false economy. I buy them pre-blued from Ferree's.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2007-05-06 11:47)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-06 12:15
I've got a 10"x5"x3" anvil I use to flatten springs on and just hold them between my fingers when flattening the ends on one of the corners that has been rounded off.
Needle springs are always straight when bought, and you put the degree of bend in them that you need.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-05-06 12:39)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-05-06 12:20
I made an anvil which I think is superior. First I got a somewhat larger block of hardenable steel, and rounded off an edge to a radius, say 2 mm. I then red-heated and quenched this area to make it really hard.
I hold the spring and lay it at right angles to this edge, on the top, such that the length I want flattened is on the flat top of the anvil, just past the radiussed part. Incorporating this radius means that when using the hammer, I have much better control over the shape of the flat, and where it ends.
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2007-05-06 21:20
Any flat metal will do for an anvil. I have a large metal vice and a short piece of railroad iron.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-06 21:30
> I have a large metal vice and a short piece of railroad iron.
Clarence,
you don't happen to know anything special about the shuttle train derailment, do you? ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-06 21:44
> It depends on how you define shuttle.
As in "NASA" or "space".
--
Ben
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2007-05-06 23:25
Lelia,
Glad to see you're posting on the forum again. You've been missed! I usually read but post seldom these days since by the time I get to read the posts someone has already answered!
Oh, forgot to add that if you place the jewelers anvil on small end and use it you get better results. Use the larger flat unblemished surface to finish faces of pad cork using micro mesh paper.
john butler
Post Edited (2007-05-06 23:29)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-05-07 11:44
Hi, John! Thanx for the kind comment--I've been here off and on. Re. the anvil, mine's square (not "anvil-shaped") and so small that I can't really stand it on edge (it tips), but I do keep one side clean for things like cork and let the other side be the dirty-work side, for bashing springs and so forth!
I didn't make clear above that when I hold the needle with the pliers, I'm holding the sharp end of the needle off the edge of the little anvil. I use the pliers in part because I get a stronger grip with them than with my fingers, and in part because I find that I'll bash the needle much harder with the hammer, and usually only need to bash it once, if my fingers are nowhere in the vicinity! I know that, even if I held the needle with my fingers, there's almost no chance my aim would be so grossly bad that I'd hit myself, but I've noticed a psychological barrier against bringing the hammer down full-force that close to anything I really don't want bashed!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-05-07 14:36
"I've tried buying needles in fabric stores, "
Brings up an interesting issue. I've been under the impression that all sewing needles are "blue" at the intermediate stage of manufacturing and that the blue oxide is removed later for one or more reasons. There is no need to "blue" a sewing needle in order to use it for a clarinet spring...imho. I suppose you could even cut to length from the pointed end and use the "eye" as is since it's already flatted. Blued springs are left blued for corrosion protection and the blue color oxide comes from the tempering operation. "Steel" springs...no blue...are made from stainless steel. I suppose one could anneal the blunt end of a blued spring to make flatting and bending easier. I have used sewing needles for springs but my wife finally caught me.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-05-08 11:46
Bob, I agree that fabric store needles probably would work just fine, and they're available in many sizes. They'd certainly be an option in an equipment emergency, while travelling, for instance. Depending on the clarinet, I think sewing needles with the eyes instact might still need some flattening, because the eye end isn't as flat as a hammered end. I don't use the sewing needles because I'm a fussbudget about making old clarinets look as original as possible. If the clarinet originally came with blued springs, I want the replacements to look the same. So far, I don't own any clarinets with bright, stainless steel springs.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-05-09 04:48
Steel springs are first hardened, i.e. heated red hot and suddenly quenched.
Then they are really hard, but also really brittle. Totally unsuitable for springs... more like the tip of a wood chisel.
The next step is "temper" them, i.e. to heat them to a CERTAIN temperature, to remove the brittleness. The hotter the temp, the more the brittleness is removed.
The needle springs we use have a different purpose from sewing needles. We NEED to bend the springs to a permanently distorted state. Sewing needles do not have this requirement. Therefore the temperature that is ideal for our springs is different form that for sewing needles.
Colour: When heating STEEL the colour changes (from oxidation) are an indication of the temperature reached. Blue is suitable for our springs. (But most bought "blued springs" these days are closer to grey, and are often too brittle, as are sewing needles.)
Note that once any plating is applied to the sewing needles, the colours that reflect temperature for steel are no longer valid.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-05-09 11:33
Thanx for the information on tempering. If tempering metal is anything like tempering glass (voice of experience: I'm a retired stained glass designer-builder), then the annealing temperature is indeed crucial and so is the s-l-o-w cooling process. Bringing glass up to the annealing temperature and then cooling it very slowly (in an annealing oven) tempers it and makes it stronger, but bringing it up to exactly the same good annealing temperature and then cooling it *quickly* guarantees it will be extremely fragile, and may craze or even explode when the artist makes any attempt to cut it or grind it.
Once when I opened up a new crate of glass from a wholesaler, I had suspicions about one particular sheet of glass (it just felt wrong), so I put on a welder's helmet, a heavy leather apron and gauntlets before I tried grinding the edge of that glass as an experiment. It began to *wriggle* in my hands as soon as I pressed the edge into the grinder bit, and then the whole sheet suddenly crazed and exploded all over the shop--just seemed to disappear right out of my hands, so fast that it took me a couple of seconds to process what had happened. Weirdest thing, like something you'd see in a science fiction movie. The tiny shards were so full of static electricity that they spun, twirled and even jumped around. I found them dancing around many yards away from the grinder. I found some stuck edge-on *into* the glass faceplate of my helmet, too. Without the visor, I'd have had shards in my eyes. Clearly, we don't need clarinet springs behaving like that!
However, I think fabric shop needles are well-annealed and pretty tough. Ny husband and I do a lot of sewing (he does all of his on leather--he's a book binder) and we're not nice to our needles. The hand-needles dull eventually, but rarely break. The only needles I've managed to break have been on the sewing machine, a 1957 Bernina pro model that can just about sew through a brick. I think the better-quality hand needles (reputable brand names such as Singer) should be strong enough for clarinet springs. However, I still plan to buy my clarinet needles from Ferree's. It's just not worth the very small savings of money to go to the trouble of finding non-coated needles, then clipping the eyes off and blueing them myself.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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The Clarinet Pages
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