 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tim P
Date: 2007-05-03 17:05
For my daughter’s wedding reception it has been decided that she wants a string quartet much to her father's dismay. He would have preferred a clarinet choir.
Anyway, what should i expect to pay? i know there are some union advocates who monitor this board. What is customary?
we are thing a 3-4 hour engagement. No hokey wedding stuff just nice classical style music, could mingle in some jazz too. no dance music anticipated.
Location is in the mid-Atlantic area namely Delaware.
thanks
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2007-05-03 17:47
The cheaper way may be to approach a university in the area with a music school. Most must schools have a service where they list and refer gigs to individuals or preformed chamber groups, free of charge to the gig employer.
Out in the professional world, reasonable fees might start around $100 and up, per hour per person. College students would probably demand just a tad bit less.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-05-03 19:16
Each AFM local (well, most of them anyway, see below) has a contract for the area in which they serve, and often has special contracts for other types of entertainment services (i.e., music in church, pit orchestra for traveling musicals). Our's (Houston's Local 65-699) even has a special lower rate for "big band" operations, one that recognizes that few want to pay for such services at the standard rate.
(Oddly enough, in the seven years of membership that I had with the old Galveston local (Local 74, now dead and buried after amalgamation with the Houston local), not once did I see a copy of the contract, nor were rates ever discussed with the membership in mailings and the like. Of course, when your local is being run out of the back room of a wholesale cleaning supplies business, you learn not to expect very much.)
I've not looked at the most recent Houston contract (which came earlier this year, if I recall it correctly) other than a brief glance to verify that I still paid well above the hourly rates. But, in previous ones the rate for "casual music" (the more or less "standard" rate, a catch all rate for most purposes, rather than one of the "specialized" ones) a two hour service on any day other than Friday or Saturday ran at $70.00 per musician plus the concurrent pension fund contribution of 10%; figure a cost of $77.00 for a two hour service per regular musician, plus one extra share for the leader (the "leader's spif", as we used to call it) who has to arrange for the booking, get the music, transport whatever physical plant there is to and from the job, and so forth.
(So the formula runs something like: Total pay = (70.00 + (.1 x 70.00) x number of musicians + 1. Of this, the pension contribution is paid to the union and is not given to the musician.
(And, keep well in mind that this is just the musician's pay/compensation. My gross rate includes a profit for the business, which in turn is reduced by operating expenses, promotion costs, commissions paid (in addition to the amounts covered by the union contract; many of my sidemen (or should I say "side persons" these days) get a nice fat commission check for bringing me a job), parking and towing to the impound lot expenses (don't ask) and so forth.)
Unfortunately, other things can complicate this. For example, the minimum rate for service on a Friday or Saturday evening is the three hour rate. The theory here is that you would normally book for such a period for a wedding reception or dance, and if someone wants you for just the two hours, it makes up for the theoretical lost opportunity for everyone who plays that particular job rather than another.
If you have the bad judgement to book a gig on one of the holidays in the contract (mainly ML King's birthday, Labor Day, July 4th and one or two others), there's a special higher holiday rate. For jobs on the musician's high holy days (Christmas and New Year's Eve), the rate jumps again, along with a four hour minimum booking regardless of the day of the week.
Then there's rehearsal pay (which I have yet to see a penny of in my lifetime outside of working for Bally Corporation back in the 1960's, and when working a cruise ship back in the day), doubling spiffs (a set fee more in the gross pay per horn other than the sax/clarinet double, which is assumed), big instrument cartage (we bass clarinet and baritone sax players, along with the drummer and whoever hauls the piano around, get a little bit more for our troubles) and other odds and ends. If you are dealing with a strict union environment, this sort of thing can add up fast.
The college music booking route may work for you, but I have discovered in the past that college students can be notoriously unreliable when being counted on for musical services. Since they're not in it as a business, their ideas of "prompt", "professional" and "performance" may be different from yours. it might be overall incompetence, it might be that one of the three players has not taken the time to practice like the other two, or it may be something else entirely. Whatever, when it happens, it can ruin your whole day.
A competent professional group will have everything planned out in advance, all of the arrangements made with your cater, yourself, and anyone else that might impact what they are doing. Even with otherwise musically competent people (and there are many such folks at colleges and universities across the United States), you might find yourself mother henning some administrative detail for the "musical group" that's been put together on an ad hoc basis at precisely the time you'd least like to do it. In any event, the time to find this out is not when they screw things up on the day of the event...
My clients get a full expectation of what is needed from them for the performance (the all important equivalent meal for an evening job, any transportation costs outside of the fifty mile radius, chairs, electrical service needed, space requirements, communication channels and the like) at the time of signing.
Once we are contracted, I make it a point to either visit (for a new venue) or contact the management (for one we have played before) to ensure that it all goes like melting ice on Teflon. That's part of the reason I get that extra share (although my wife is entitled to about half of it, to be fair.)
Even with such extensive preparation, things can go wrong.
We did a wedding down in Galveston last year in a historic old structure, the Germania Verein building. It was the last remaining portion of an extensive social structure that immigrants used to maintain in most towns where they settled, and it has been lovingly restored for a meeting or wedding venue.
We did the usual preflight after signing the contract, met with the hall's proprietor, measured everything up. verified that the chairs were there (this one item happens to cause troubles in about every other job that I've done to date), our space and electrical requirements, and so forth.
On the day of the wedding, the "advanced team" (the two of us plus one of my vocalists) showed up at 2:00 PM to do the setup. Naturally, the rain was falling in sheets, so much that both of the ladies had to redo their hair after we had completed the onerous chore of moving it all in and setting it up.
Once it was done, I went for some food for the navvies who had helped me, only to find out when I returned that the caterer had summarily pushed all of our equipment into a heap at the back of the all too shallow stage. This was done so that he could relocated the wedding ceremony inside (it was pouring down rain).
Some hasty words followed, along with a careful reading of our signed contract to him (which specifies the space that we are guaranteed and so forth) after which he quickly relocated his setup (perhaps sixty pounds of props, two folding trellis screens and two tables) to the center of the dance floor while we three furiously worked at setting our stuff to rights again. It was a near run thing, but we pulled it out before the first guest's foot hit the floor, success in my book.
Don't get me wrong; some union groups (I've played for a few over the years) can screw up as badly as a high school garage band with guys named Garth and Stu. Competent musicianship is no guarantee of competent business sense (and vice versa. In fact, most of the business decisions that I've made over the years are learned behavior from watching other leaders do the exact opposite. Learn from the mistakes of others, I always say. It's just that you're more likely to get a professional operation when you deal with a real business.
There's no guarantee that you won't end up with a drunken musician pawing the bridesmaids, or folks that show up dressed like they were appearing at a skaw festival when you are all in morning coats or formal wear. There's always the chance of something going wrong, regardless of the "certification" that someone carries. However, the chances of this happening with a "professional group" (i.e., a real business as opposed to a pick-up team) are much, much smaller.
In effect, you gets what you pays for, me boy.
We might be available. Coincidentally, I just recently worked up a price on having my group do a standard weekend wedding in the Washington suburbs, this based upon an inquiry from our website. I kinda thought that it was bogus, but you never know. We have travelled as far as four hundred miles in the past (a job where the lodgings and the mileage/meal money far outweighed the retail price of the group).
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Tim P
Date: 2007-05-03 20:28
the qoute i got was from a professional group. made up of 1st chair from each of the string groups. not a big city orchestra but a respected regional orchestra that has been around for about 10years or so..
they would have about 1 hour travel each way to the gig.
the gig is outside in a party tent with sides and heat if needed.
afternoon 2-6pm affair
they can indulge in our food and drink.
playfor four hours
$2000.00.
sound reasonable
"saving the world, one beer at a time"
Post Edited (2007-05-03 20:30)
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2007-05-03 23:44
That price sounds good for the musicians. Someone else is going to have to let you know if it's fair for you. I just know that, as a musician, I would jump at the opportunity to make $500 for four hours of playing and two in transit.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-05-03 23:58
I've done a number of 4 hour wedding combo gigs, where we use a sextet (trumpet, trombone, clarinet/sax, piano, bass and drums) and $3000 ($500/man) is about the going rate in my area. If they also want a vocalist, (which they usually do) that would add another $500.
For a 3 hour gig, our sextet might get in the $2000 - $2250 range.
However, I live in a resort area (the Hamptons/Eastern Long Island) where prices are high for everything ...GBK
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Author: dgclarinet
Date: 2007-05-04 01:22
Tim,
After reading Terry's response and remembering my union days, just remember...almost anybody will elope if given enough money.
Seriously......I had two clarinets and a basson play my wedding ceremony, and a 9 piece jazz group play at my reception. People still talk about the music that day more than they ever talk about the wedding...and they all played for nothing (I didn't tell the union about it either).
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2007-05-04 04:33
I suggest you contact an A.F. of M. Local union office in your home state.
All the information you need on fees charged for your event will be provided by the Local.
If you are in Delaware, here's the info from the AFM website:
http://afm.org/public/home/index.php
Local 21, American Federation of Musicians
Wilmington, DE
Chartered March 18, 1907
2316 Baynard Blvd
Wilmington, DE 19802
Phone: 302-777-7780
Fax: 302-777-7757
Email: local21@afm.org
Website: www.afm21.org
Office Hours: MON-WED-FRI 9:30 AM-1:30PM
1-800-207-7274
Dues if Paid Annually: $140.00
Dues if Paid Quarterly: $36.25
Local 21 Initiation Fee (one-time): $40.00
Federation Initiation Fee (one-time): $65.00
Local 21 Officers
William Berger, President
Glenn Finnan, Sec / Tres
John R Egnor Jr, Vice Pres
Barbara Jean Benedett, Exec Board
Donald Brill, Exec Board
Howard A Griffith Jr, Exec Board
Sylvia Annette Jackson, Exec Board
Vernon James, Exec Board
John Lakatos, Exec Board
Vincent Marinelli, Exec Board
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
Post Edited (2007-05-04 04:34)
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Author: William
Date: 2007-05-04 14:53
Out here in the "heartland", our six piece combo usually booked 3 or 4 hour local wedding gigs for about $600.00. For long trips, that rate would go as high as $1200--Wausaw, Milwalkee (WI) or Chicago, ex. Sting trios and quartets usually go for $100 +, per person per hour. And those are all above our Madison, WI Local 166 "union scale" rates. Basically, you are going to be charged as much as the leader thinks they can get for your own area. Don't be afraid to negotiate.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-05-05 00:49
Here in the DC area where there's far more musical talent available than gigs, and where DJs have become much more popular than live musicians, one is lucky to make $300 per player for weddings or private events (this is for non-Union gigs, which are the vast majority around here). The average, I'd guess, is closer to $200.
Sad to say that musicians' pay in the metro Washington DC area has stayed about constant for the last 20+ years, while of course inflation has about tripled (or more) the cost of everything during the same time period. As I mentioned in another thread once, the going rate for non-Union theatre pit work in this area is about $25 per service --- same as it was when I started playing for money at age 16 (that would be, let's see, 33 years ago!).
Maybe I should move to the Hamptons and audition for GBK's band?
![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-05-05 01:44
DS,
I've heard you play on those cool bari recordings and I know how I play. We need to move to the Hamptons, form a sax trio with GBK, find an organ player with a big rhythm unit, and become rich over-night. All of us double multiple ways so we could do about anything.
Sax 5th Avenue! Or We Three Kings of Saxophone Are!
HRL
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-05-05 05:58
I'm reading this thread after having just come in from playing a 4 hour big band gig. The big band that I play with uses 16 musicians.
Or as we sometimes say - 15 musicians and a vocalist ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
The affair was a fire department awards dinner, and although the gig was booked for 4 hours, with speeches, awards and presentations the band only actually played for 3 hours.
The band grossed $6000, which came out to $375 per man.
We also had access to the open bar and were given dinner. ...GBK
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Author: William
Date: 2007-05-05 14:39
Hey Hank, fly bye Madison on your way to the Hamptons, pick me up and we can be "The Four Brothers".
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-05-05 14:42
Can do! We'll be the We Three Kings of Saxophone Are Plus One! Maybe the 4 Others!
Post Edited (2007-05-07 16:18)
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Author: Tim P
Date: 2007-05-07 16:11
thanks to all for the information
looks like i may be at the upper end of the payscale but not crazy high.
they are sending me a contract so once we read it then we can decide better.
this won't be like your normal wedding there will be no chicken dance, announcements, games, special dances.
all we are looking for is classical music in the background while people eat and talk and of course enjoy the beer.
between now and the wedding i certainely hope to have the opportunity to go hear them.
i do not know if they are union or not. I just have also been a bit partial to unions and would be willing to pay union scale if applicable. i suppose with coal miners on both side of my family and one of my wife's this is to be expected.
i'll let ya'all know how it goes down.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-05-07 16:28
Tim P wrote:
> this won't be like your normal wedding there will be no chicken
> dance, announcements, games, special dances.
What? ... No chicken dance?
The Chicken Dance sounds repulsive to you now, but is a whole different thing after three glasses of wine and your grandma saying she really wants to hear it.
It always makes me chuckle to think of the irony in bringing a carefully selected 30 year old R13, a hand picked barrel, vintage mouthpiece, ligature, reed, etc... just to play the "Chicken Dance."
Mom would have been proud.
...GBK (who has also played "The Hokey Pokey" "The Macarena" and "YMCA" at far too many weddings)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2007-05-07 16:30
While I work at or below the DC rates mentioned above, the south is a much cheaper place than the north.
But I would say that the fees involved are actually reasonable--high as they seem. Imagine the fee that you would pay for ANY kind of work crew to come and do 4-7 hours of work. (I include here the setting up and tearing down of equipment) Inflation-adjusted for what we used to make in the '70's & '80's, $300-500 per musician doesn't seem out of line.
David, I sympathize with you DC guys. It's even worse down here in Richmond, although competition isn't that stiff. I often look very carefully at freelance gigs in terms of how many teaching hours they could cost me. I just played for Queen Elizabeth for less than $300 and out of that will be around $100 in lost lesson time and refunds. As with DC, DJ's are now 'performers' and turntables are now percussion instruments. Who'da thought it?
Allen Cole
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-05-07 19:45
You may not have good luck calling the union and getting rate information. You can try it, but when I've done so in the past without announcing my affiliation with the Galveston or Houston locals (mostly to set rates outside of our immediate territory), no information is forthcoming until I mention that I'm a member of Local 74 or whatever.
This makes sense, since anyone who knows the minimum pay for a given period is in a good position to negotiate away every bit of profit by figuring the cost and then lowballing the figure you offer. The union is in effect protecting its members.
I stick by the rate card for the group unless it is being done as a favor to a member of the group. At that point, I'll cut off the gross so it's closer to the net. Otherwise, no.
And, that travel time that was given above is well over a local travel. As I said, I've done jobs where the freight for the bodies and equipment has almost added up to the list price of the gig. That expense money is a "pass through" item, not part of the group's price, and paid separately in the case of my group.
And, non-union groups will work differently. From the prices quoted above, they are working substantially above scale. It may pay to shop around a bit if time is not pressing you too closely.
The contract in use by the Houston local has not substantially changed for the casual rates in the five years that I've been dealing with it. There have been a lot of "exceptions added" (like for the non-union Orchestra X, which finally succumbed to union pressure (and got a special rate in the bargain), but none to the basic elements. As many have said, you can have trouble getting even the union minimums.
A big band group I used to play with did a gig up in College Station TX (about a hundred miles away) this past Saturday evening, and got only a hundred or so a head for their troubles. Since it's fun to play, many don't mind that, but I'd hate to try and live on such an income per week (say three jobs a week).
As for the music:
All of my folks dislike The Chicken Dance (or, to use its real name "Dance Little Bird"), but it's one of the first ones that I ordered when getting arrangements for my group. Ditto YMCA, and ditto a large number of disco tunes (cries of "Disco sucks! overheard in the background).
The reason for this is not that they are good music (although The Village People had some neat stuff arranged for them), but rather that they are music that people want to hear. In this, as in much else, I was driven by what other leaders had done in the past.
I played in one group where the leader refused to do anything but classic big band stuff. He had a minimum number of referrals come his way, just because the audience for the hits of the 1940's is small and growing smaller every day. Blind as a bat, he could not see more people on the dance floor for "I Will Survive" than he ever saw for "Tommy Dorsey's Original Boogie-Woogie". Iffen they ain't dancing, they're probably not having fun, and if they are not having fun, then you are not successful at anything other than selling them a bill of goods
It does mean that we play some music that we don't like. (My particular bet noir these days is anything done by Nora Jones - I'd rather play something from the Ring Cycle than I would one more rendition of Don't Know Why.) But, we aren't performing for us, we are performing for them. A fine point perhaps, but one that should be attended to.
It's a stupid musician/band leader who ignores the desires of his audience. Put another way by that noted musical expert Xavier Cugat, "I would rather play "Chiquita Banana" and have my swimming pool than play Bach and starve."
Smart man, that...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
Post Edited (2007-05-07 20:04)
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2007-05-08 04:46
Players in the Minneapolis/St.Paul area with quality groups make in the neighborhood of $200-$250 for a four hour wedding engagement (plus extra for the leader/booker).
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2007-05-08 22:03
$250 seems to also be the ticket in this area (southeast Michigan).
I feel much better now that some of our more esteemed colleagues admit to having played the Chicken Dance.
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