 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-06 18:37
Hello All,
I am open and willing to hear any advice that can help a student of mine!
Without initially going into excessive detail here's the problem: This student has a huge issue correctly analyzing his own playing. In particular he ignores articulations religously.
We have spent a great deal of time on this issue and the progress is poor at best.
The student has a great deal of potential. Of course it is impossible for him to realize this talent unless he can practice successfully at home (which can't be done because he can't tell when what he's played is correct or not! AARGH!)
PARADOXICALLY the student has one of the best ears I've come across. I actually will not play for him anything they are learning because he can replicate what he hears so easily.
(The student has no reading issues and is an honor student.)
I have run the gamut of ways to help the student improve in this area.
Any suggestions?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: gwie
Date: 2007-05-06 18:53
In my experience, a digital recording device with a good microphone (the most important component) and a hefty set of speakers (studio monitors would be ideal) are helpful in these situations.
I've had a number of kids who tell me they "can't hear" the problems with proper articulation, over-phrasing individual notes, or any of the other issues that I bring to their attention with their playing. Having the machine spit it back at them often has very humbling results.
If they can't identify their playing problems after hearing themselves on a high-quality recording after being taught how to identify specific issues, then I generally conclude that they don't *want* to fix anything (for any number of reasons including ego, laziness, etc.), and that is another problem with a much different solution.
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2007-05-06 19:28
When he replicates what he has "heard" does he have proper articulation?
If so, maybe he needs to listen to recordings by players he admires.
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-05-06 20:15
Tobin wrote:
>
> PARADOXICALLY the student has one of the best ears I've come
> across. I actually will not play for him anything they are
> learning because he can replicate what he hears so easily.
>
So what is wrong with actually allowing him to use his ears to perhaps hear his lack of articulation? Are you concerned he may not become quite the sight-reader he needs to be in order to be a professional classical musician? Then so be it, as he'll never be one anyway if he doesn't articulate properly, but if he learns to articulate properly, by whatever means necessary, then he'll become a nice, competent amateur, or a perhaps a non-classical pro.
Steve Epstein
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-06 21:31
Ahhh. The lessons are done.
As an afterthought I might have titled this thread "FrustratED student."
Gene: This is the only route that I have not had a chance to explore. I lack a recording device and essentially I just need to pick one and buy. The student apparently tape records himself and finds it helpfull. I believe this will be my next step.
The student has endless patience in the lesson to go over and fix passages. He will not be one who does not want to improve. There is a genuine breakdown is his analytical skills.
John: Generally yes, he then gets it right. I refrain from aiding him in this way because he needs to be able to generate accuracy by himself. This is the reason I am confused: he can reproduce what others do but can't hear himself?
Steve: The boy uses his ears exclusively, he is smart and there is no reason that he can't read music properly. He will also ALWAYS hear well, the goal is to increase his intellectual understanding. It is too early to say if he will become a pro or not, but I don't teach two different ways: "going to be great" or "going to be average."
More thoughts appreciated!
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2007-05-06 21:34)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-06 21:53
Tobin,
...then tickle his interest, his interpretative skills. "How do you think it would sound best?" "How would you play it if there weren't any articulation marks at all on the sheet?" "Why so and not so?"
I dunno - maybe he's seeing a reason you're not seeing, maybe he's thinking something when he plays it this and not that way. Difficult to put that into words; for me, music is a gut thing, somehow. Dunno if an "intellectual" approach is working for him as it would for you.
--
Ben
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-06 22:04
Tictactux: Not a bad point. Expressing the musical thought is something we work on in every lesson. One of the many reasons that I enjoy this student and think so highly of him is his natural inclination TOWARDS expression.
I have found that many students do this as an afterthought, not realizing that it is in fact the purpose.
He is not, however, conciously CHOOSING to disregard the directions on the page. If there was deliberate choice then we could discuss when, where and why to alter the music.
He performs a passage and believes that every written detail (and more because of his expressive playing) is correct, not realizing that he has made errors that need to be resolved.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-06 22:54
So...what would he answer to the question "why do you think there is an accent on this note?" or "why didn't you play this accent?"
I know that some people have selective perception. Does he actually see these articulation marks at all or is he absorbed by the notes? (I am, sometimes)
What would happen if you gave him an unmarked piece for free interpretation?
--
Ben
Post Edited (2007-05-06 22:56)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-07 11:50
Tictactux: He would reply..."I didn't?" The fact of the matter is that I'll worry about accents after he articulates every time the music requires him to!
He does actually see the articulation. I can ask him for example, over any given stretch of music how many times are you supposed to tongue and he will get that right.
The boy is 7th grade, having played for three years. That is a bit of a jump start in this area. It is plain that previous teachers did not hold him to any kind of exacting standard.
When he originally came to study with me he did not actually tongue. That has been solved.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-05-07 12:37
I used to have a problem simial to this student. In my case(and perhaps this student's aswell), I thought of the articulations as a suggestion, not as part of the piece.
It might be good to be a little hard on him and stress that articulations are just as important as dynamics, tempi, and the pitches themselves.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-07 12:55
Thanks skygardener: I too thought this was the problem several months ago. It has been stressed, and the student believes, that articulations are to be taken literally.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-05-07 13:09
> I don't teach two different ways: "going to be great" or "going to be average."
I don't think this is what Steve meant (and Steve correct me if I'm wrong). I think he meant that maybe a classical clarinetist is not the direction of this student.
Of course this doesn't mean he shouldn't learn to read music, articulate, etc. (personally I think this is important regardless of what music you play) but do you also do other things that are maybe easier or more fun for his way (and good ears). For example, do you ever do any improvisation, or in any way let him make music of his own? Maybe if you let him make his own music and then explain why he chose to do certain things he will understand better why he needs to do certain when he plays other music. Is he familiar with a lot of different music? Do you give him CDs to listen to? etc.
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-05-07 14:22
He is in 7th grade, which makes him about 13 years old? That may be a bit a bit too young to expect him to make the connection between the proper sound and his own sound. I've played with college students (amateurs) who can't do that, at least not yet. They play violin, need to sound like folk fiddlers, have heard what that sounds like, but can't seem to stop playing fiddle tunes like Bach pieces. You can point out how certain notes are unaccented while others are, you can point out the subtle rhythm shifts, I can demo it for them on clarinet, sounding more like a fiddle player than they do, but it doesn't help -- and some of them are even pretty good at picking up the melodies by ear (which I myself do poorly if at all). In my own evolution as an adult player, I often heard the wrong things first when listening to great players, e.g., the fact that a jazz or klezmer player bent notes but not precisely how he bent them, or that they were still in tune in the part that wasn't bent, or that his notes were still separately articulated and didn't run together, even when slurred.
And as regards my first point, many on this board have remarked at how difficult it is for even truly great players to succeed as full-time professionals, so all I'm suggesting is that he may not be able to be a pro orchestra-type player if he doesn't have all the tools required for the job, even at his young age, but I'm not suggesting that you write him off or not try. Just being "realistic".
Steve Epstein
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-07 15:09
I apologize Steve, for missinterpreting what your thought was.
I don't expect any of my students to attempt the professional life unless it occurs to them to put their hand to that level of performance.
I do expect them to learn "the basics" (and I am implying that reading music is part of the basics) and to be equipped with the proper fundamentals and problem solving skills that they can elect to succeed in the musical circles that they choose to swim in.
"That may be a bit a bit too young to expect him to make the connection between the proper sound and his own sound." It isn't. This is the only young student I have who has this difficulty. Also: (Rhetorically) Why does he clearly hear his note and rhythm errors but not his articulation?
Clarnibass: "...but do you also do other things that are maybe easier or more fun for his way (and good ears) {?}" Yes. Reading music is not the only discipline and I do not ignore others. Although I do not yet teach improvisation I do play ear training games with all of my students.
I do loan students CD's, but I wouldn't say this student has a broad sense of clarinet world. He has directed himself towards playing in a youth orchestra so this problem must be addressed.
Both you and Tictactux have suggested using the student's creative impulse to help solve the problem and this isn't an approach I had considered. So I will give this a try.
Any other thoughts? Has anyone experienced this themselves in their learning or teaching?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2007-05-07 15:39
As an exercise, you could have him tongue every note.
Once he can do this successfully, he can then slur when the music calls for it.
Back in the dark ages, I was taught to tongue a note as the default, and slur when called for. Obviously he missed this lesson.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-07 23:29
Hello John,
I agree. I'm not sure how dark it was back then but I was taught the same way. It would have been nice to have started the student myself but he came on board with me after playing for some time.
I also like your idea and will put it to use along with the other suggestions.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-05-08 01:07
Tobin wrote:
>
> "That may be a bit a bit too young to expect him to make the
> connection between the proper sound and his own sound." It
> isn't. This is the only young student I have who has this
> difficulty. Also: (Rhetorically) Why does he clearly hear his
> note and rhythm errors but not his articulation?
>
1. He simply may not be able to hear that one component of his playing. Despite his ease with the other components, hearing his articulation is too difficult for him at this point.
2. He simply may not care. Earlier you mentioned that he plays expressively; he may feel that's more than good enough.
Steve Epstein
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-08 11:32
Hello again,
Steve: you have spent your posts to this thread analyzing the boy (which is impossible to do throught the internet) instead of the problem.
Although I appreciate your time and your anecdotal experience, do you realize that you haven't posited one method for the solution to the problem?
Presuming he was your student and you didn't think he was too young, too apathetic and too incapable: How would you help him solve the problem?
Thanks everyone!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-05-10 04:45
I don't know, because I am not trained in instrumental music pedagogy; i.e., I am not a trained music educator. So I've been guessing, if it sounds like I'm analyzing the boy rather than his problem.
Steve Epstein
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-05-10 05:04
Dude if he listens by ear, throw him some professional recordings and just tell him to go over passages by listening what professional musicians interpret it. this from what i can deduce from your situation would be a great way to jolt him into playing articulations correctly. sounds like he just needs something to compete against: i.e. recordings.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-10 20:38
Hello again,
C2thew: the point currently is to help the boy learn to read music (and all the details) INSTEAD of relying on his ear.
His aural understading is not going to diminish. His visual/intellectual understanding needs to approach what he can do aurally.
Taking it a step further gwie's advice might be the best, to have him listen to and critique his own playing through a recording device.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-05-10 21:42
couldn't it be that he just doesn't wanna play classical music seriously?
he maybe just want to have fun. i know i did as a kid(not so old now either, but still...)
i didn't care to learn the right way, or the wrong way either. just simply to have a really great time, and grow into the clothes, so to speak. to find the calm in oneself when learning and exploring the clarinet is possible.
what i am trying to say here is that if you just leave the problem for a while, when he has gained more experience, he will play the right way just because he knows what he want to do and are capable of figure out how to do it. if he is just so gifted as you say.
this worked just fine for me anyway...
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-11 01:34
Hello all,
It abolutely impossible for anyone to correctly assess the psychological makeup of a boy they have never met.
If he wasn't interested in classical music don't you think that I would know? (Before you say "maybe he hasn't told you yet", think again....;)
Why would I seek advice trying to help a student who didn't want and need the advice for themselves?
Obviously this is a public forum and it's usefullness would be much less if everyone could control who responds to queries (we would all learn a lot less)...
BUT: Unless you have an actual solution that you'd like to share, you aren't helping much.
I greatly appreaciate much of the advice I have been given,
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-05-11 08:54
Tobin wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> It abolutely impossible for anyone to correctly assess the
> psychological makeup of a boy they have never met.
>
Of course it's impossible, but he is only about 13 or so. How much teaching experience do you have, BTW?
> If he wasn't interested in classical music don't you think that
> I would know? (Before you say "maybe he hasn't told you yet",
> think again....;)
>
No, you might not know; he is only 13 or so. He might not know what he wants, or he might be changing his mind.
> Why would I seek advice trying to help a student who didn't
> want and need the advice for themselves?
>
> Obviously this is a public forum and it's usefullness would be
> much less if everyone could control who responds to queries (we
> would all learn a lot less)...
>
> BUT: Unless you have an actual solution that you'd like to
> share, you aren't helping much.
>
> I greatly appreaciate much of the advice I have been given,
>
> James
>
The point that I and others are trying to make is that this may not really be a technical issue of your teaching, but a problem of maturity, desire, and even lack of ability (that you cannot recognize) on the part of the kid.
If you have 20 years or so of experience teaching kids and adults music or anything else, I'll back off. Otherwise, consider the fact that this is a developing human being here, a non-adult, whose "problem" may to him not be a problem at all, and can't be addressed with a technical fix. HE'S A KID! ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Steve Epstein
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-05-11 12:34
ok, heres an off the wall suggestion:
record several OTHER students (younger) playing simple passages.
say first year kids who are still making numerous articulation errors.
or record some passages yourself , from a beginner book.
maybe play a line 2 ways - once right, once wrong.
play this for this problem student, show him the music, and ask him to tell you what the younger kids are doing wrong. e.g., have him analyze the playing (via recording) of some younger students.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-13 22:57
This particular student will only have one more lesson with me until summer time. I will eventually report back on his progress and which methods in which combinations were helpfull!
Steve: I find it curious that I must have twenty years of educational experience to satisfy someone who has none.
If a different hypothetical student in middle school had difficulty with math, I don't believe that the teachers would offer up ignoring the problem as an option!
And still not one solution!
Paul: Thanks for the suggestion! I will couple this with other thoughts and see how it goes.
Thanks again!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-05-14 01:52
Not my point.
Though I admit that I know as little about you as I know about your student, I bet you are in fact a very good teacher, technically. It's just from the tenor, the tone of your comments, that I suspect you are focusing solely on the technical side of his problem and taking for granted his motivation, ability and maturity.
But enough of that, since you disagree and have made that plain. Instead, I'LL ACTUALLY GIVE YOU A CONSTRUCTIVE IDEA. OKAY?
Ask another, more experienced teacher, i.e., more experienced than you, whatever your level of experience is, to sit in on his next lesson. This teacher doesn't need to be a clarinet player, just an instrumental music teacher. The "ruse" you can use with the kid is that he's so good you want this teacher to hear how well he plays. What this teacher is going to do is observe: one, your teaching techniques, and two, your personal interaction with the kid. He or she should also have a conversation with the kid, perhaps not in your presence. Obviously, this person has to be someone you can trust, and hopefully won't charge you, or won't charge you any more than your lesson fee with the kid, so you can pay him without a loss other than your lesson fee (You should not charge the kid anything extra. This is your tuition, not his.).
From this, you'll be able to figure out a lot more about your student. One thing no one, including you has mentioned, but is a possibility, is that the kid is doing this all deliberately, just to play with your head, 'cause he's only 13 or 14! When he's interviewed by this "neutral" observer, he might actually admit it if that's the case. And if it is the case, don't drop the student. It's something some very smart kids do, to get over on adults they feel are too earnest in their agenda and not paying enough attention to them as people.
Or it may simply be a technical issue. But you'll have a second opinion.
HTH. Really.
Steve Epstein
Post Edited (2007-05-14 01:53)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-05-14 13:02
James-
here's an idea. it might be simple enough to get the kid on the right track. maybe you've tried it already.
- write a few simple phrases with some different articulations. have him play super slow so that there can be no question in his mind as to when he is or is not using his tongue. be really hard on him till he can hear and feel the difference.
it might get him really upset but it's tough love.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-14 14:04
Thanks skygardener,
Anther good idea. As I mentioned earlier (far far back in the thread!) this student has a remarkable amount of patience to work on and correct his problems.
Steve: The tone and tenor of my comments are those of an adult communicating with other adults. Obviously not the same as used with children.
It probably does appear technical...I've gone through lengths to leave out subjective bits that would not be helpful in discussing a solution. Characteristics of the student that I have included were only added to eliminate ideas that would appear likely on the other side of the computer but are not relevant in this situation.
Your idea has merits, but the idea of this student intentionally or unintentionally attempting to deliberately misslead are laughable IF you know the student. My fiance is a cellist/conductor/music educator and was shocked (not in a bad way) at the suggestion (because she knows the boy.)
This seems like a reasonable idea from your end. I know you're attempting to be helpfull.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Katherine Handcock
Date: 2007-05-14 17:16
Hi there,
I have both experienced this problem personally and encountered it in my students...it seems to me that this can be one of the hardest things for students to hear. What worked for me (in both situations) were solutions similar to the one above: short excerpts, played slowly enough to really concentrate on the articulation. They also have to be simple enough (at least at first) that he's not thinking about fingering/rhythm etc. You can use bits of the repertoire he's doing for this--tell him to play the first four bars of his piece with perfect articulation.
I also get students to listen to me play and name the articulation (i.e. two slurred, two tongued). I will also play along with them, exaggerating the articulation, so it's more obvious when their articulation doesn't match mine. As they become more comfortable with it, I will do a drill get them to play a longer section, and stop them IMMEDIATELY if the articulation is incorrect. If you wait until after they've finished playing 16 bars, then tell them the articulation was wrong in bar 2, they've lost the sound of the incorrect articulation; if you stop them right there, it seems easier for them to hear what you're talking about.
I will say, though, that this sort of focussed work should only be part of the lesson, or it will drive both of you crazy! Do five minutes like this, say, and then continue through your lesson. You can reference back (i.e. "It would be easier to make this piece feel light and bouncy, like it's supposed to, if you were tonguing staccato") to keep them thinking about it.
Hope this helps!
Katherine
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-05-15 00:45
Yeah, my idea that he is doing it deliberately is a bit of a stretch.
I like Katherine Handcock's idea of stopping him quickly, if you aren't already doing that. Jump on it right away; don't let him play through because he will just forget.
Steve Epstein
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-15 01:47
Thanks Katherine!
I was hoping that someone who was more directly connected to the problem would respond.
The difference between what you are suggesting and my normal course of action is that I don't interrupting the student. I prefer to ask them to evaluate after they have played allowing them to generate mental markers. This student has no difficulty evaluating notes/rhythms AFTER the fact.
It makes sense to put this method aside until he is fully aware of his "articulative responsibilities".
I would like to thank everyone for their help with our difficulty! (not that I wouldn't love more ideas!)
James
PS...the student performed with his youth orchestra this past Sunday. The orchestra members performed quite well! A really fine concert.
Gnothi Seauton
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