 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-05-04 02:00
Dear Board,
The subtitle of this brief rant is.........Yamaha CSG-H revisted seven months later.
Over the years I have eaten away the silver plating (and nickel plating) on more than my fair share of instruments. I don't know if there will ever be a difinitive answer to why, but the oils (or sweat) of my skin happen to be particularly acidic. As a defense against this EXPENSIVE problem I was forced to develop the habit of wiping off the keys of my axe every time I finished practicing for the day (SOOOOO hard to keep up some days). This did stem the problem but could never completely stop the oxidation.
My current horn, a Yamaha CSG-H utilizes an ultra thin (only a few microns) exterior plating of nickel/gold which Yamaha refers to as Hamilton Plating. After the first month I decided to sacrifice all reason in the spirit of experimentation and NOT wipe off the keys at all.
There is virtually NO visible wear at any point on any key to include the thumb tube, register key, "A" key or pinky keys. At this point down the road the keys of my Selmer 10G looked like the Blue Grotto.
So what I wonder is, if Yamaha can come up with a key that is (so far) impervious to corosion of any kind, why is it that this had not been discovered by other manufacturers heretofore, and why haven't other manufacturers not jumped on this bandwagon.
Are we as consumers insistant upon "Silver" keys to the exclusion of gold or gold alloys or are we just not informed of this benefit?
............Paul Aviles
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-04 08:24
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Are we as consumers insistant upon "Silver" keys to the
> exclusion of gold or gold alloys or are we just not informed of
> this benefit?
Quote Yamaha: The YCL-CSG-H is the same clarinet but with a 'Hamilton' plate finish on the keys. Hamilton plating consists of gold with some nickel and copper added. Many players find it darkens the sound while at the same time giving tonal clarity and projection. They feel it also helps create a creamy smooth texture to both the sound and the response.
That's why. I don't want no creamy notes.
Seriously - I don't know. Maybe the colour is a deterrant because it might look like a mailorder CSO at first sight, or simply because manufacturers and consumers are arch-conservative in this regard.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-04 09:21
There's always Rhodium plating.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-05-04 11:51
No way a few microns on the /keys/ is going to change the sound, surely?...
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-04 11:59
Not at all - plating is purely cosmetic.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-05-04 12:49
My experience is that the plating is NOT purely cosmetic in the above anecdote. It also does affect the "FEEL" of the keys, whether you prefer slipperier keys or having a tackier resistance.
I would think that durability and carefree qualities should trump lesser considerations...........ie cosmetic.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-04 13:02
I meant cosmetic in that it has no influence on the tone (which was in the question), not in how it feels under the fingers.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-05-04 13:04
Cosmetics and durability, yes, but I hope you are not suggesting that you actually believe the BS that the plating of the keys might affect the sound?
Post Edited (2007-05-05 07:06)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-05-04 13:26
Paul, you are a realist with specific needs for plating that does not get destroyed easily by acidic sweat. There are more than a few people who produce sweat and surface skin oils that more easily attack the nickel and silver plating on keys.
Unfortunately the woodwind community is very conservative and steeped in tradition and very slowly embraces new innovations and products. IMO silver keywork has a better, less slippery feel than nickel but indeed is difficult to take care of because of the propensity to tarnish. Tarnish inhibitors in the case help a lot but keywork should be wiped off after playing and some tarnish will inevitably happen.
With the new innovations in plating technology a plating of rhodium or other non-reactive metal in many colors is possible and very plausible. Instrument manufacturers unfortunately usually only react to overwhelming demand for a new feature and go by the motto: "Why change it - we still sell bunches of them". It is expensive for a manufacturer to offer a new plating option and probably would only come to pass with a significant demand by customers.
I agree with you that the Hamilton plating (although only tried by me on a couple of test drives of the CSG) is a very positive feature. I could care less what color the keys are if the feel is good and I do not have to take special measures to protect them.
Of course we have had many discussions on the effect of plating on sound and IMO it is minimal if at all present. IMO the practical aspects of feel and ease of care far outweigh any other aspects. The other Big 3 will probably only offer it if they see a significant commercial advantage and demand by a large group of potential customers however. "Better" is not necessarily what the manufacturers offer us.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-04 13:46
Plating of any kind is applied to protect the base metal and to give a uniformity to the finish of the keys of which each piece can be made in several different alloys, and no-one wants keywork looking like it's all in different metals (brass, bronze, nickel silver and solid silver). So from that point of view, plating is cosmetic, no matter what kind of plating it may be.
But each player has their own like or dislike, and can choose what kind of plating they like for several reasons - resistance to corrosion, resistance to oxidisation and how it feels under the fingers. Some people like their keywork to be slippery so they opt for nickel or chrome plating. Some people want more drag in the keywork, so they opt for silver or platinum plating. Some people have more acidic perspiration and want resistance the plating, so they opt for gold or rhodium plating. But there are people that also prefer the general look of the plating and will choose the one which has the appearance that appeals to them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2007-05-04 14:04
The clarinets I'm playing are mostly vintage, with unplated 'nickel-silver' keys. When I have them repadded or overhauled I request that the keys not be buffed, but other than that I do nothing to protect them.
Should I start wiping them off after I play? Should I get them plated?
Does the key plating process include removing post-mounts and such, and plating them? If not, it will look like crap; if so it seems invasive and expensive.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-05-04 14:09
The point however is that we, routinely, are offered a silver colored keywork whether it be silver plated, nickel, or chrome. Other than Yamaha on their CSG model offering Hamilton, there are no other routine options. Plating with exotic metals must follow the electromotive scale and therefore the base metal and subsequent plating metals must therefore be different, and more expensive to set up initially, for the more exotic platings both because of the EM scale but also more practical plating logistics considerations. Cost is also a factor and platinum or pure gold would add significant cost. Rhodium requires a different plating sequence. The Hamilton plating formula only contains a small amount of gold but maintains the non-reactive characteristics - a very unique and IMO practical application of plating technology without disrupting the usual plating steps. Perhaps with more options in the marketplace a clarinet with non-silver colored keywork would not seem out of place - look at the saxophone options?
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-04 14:49
"Does the key plating process include removing post-mounts and such, and plating them? If not, it will look like crap; if so it seems invasive and expensive."
Yes, if having a clarinet that's nickel plated or unplated you will have all the (removable) non-ferrous parts plated, othewise it's not having the whole job done. Though you can only have the keys plated and the rings, pillars and other fittings left as is and it will look like a half-arsed job as they won't match with the freshly plated keywork.
And it is expensive as it means a complete rebuild, and all the keys and screws will all need fitting after plating due to the amount of plating in the pillar holes, key barrels and screw threads.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-05-04 15:40
Dr. Henderson,
Thank you for a better understanding of Hamilton Plating. I am only trying to get the word out and some feedback on good, cost effective alternatives that may help the masses.......eventually.
Chris P.,
The neat thing about the Yamaha is that it is ALL plated this way to include posts. Plating in and of itself is not the issue I am addressing, only the metal that we see and work with. For example, my Wurlitzer 100Cs utilize solid silver......but cost is a factor here. I also am not addressing POST production work as much as what the manufacturers can offer in a production horn.
If no one really cares whether the keywork will last without sigificant maintenance, the point of the post is mute.
And finally, I really hate that we dragged the "sound of plating" into this even if it does come from Yamaha itself. Can't really blame them for trying to make their product "sound" more sexy.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-05-04 15:46
But if the plating isn't cosmetic, why not just play with tarnished keys? Sure your fingers might eat up the keys, and sure it doesn't look right, but the grip is great and the clarinet still plays the same.
Alexi - previous owner of a very tarnished, three repaired cracks, selmer 10G who thought the sound was gorgeous and didn't notice any flaws in the feel of the keys/rings due to the wear.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-04 16:01
> And finally, I really hate that we dragged the "sound of plating" into this
> even if it does come from Yamaha itself. Can't really blame them for trying to
> make their product "sound" more sexy.
<hangs head>
Sorry.
You asked for reasons. I gave you one.
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-05-04 16:15
Alexi,
Good point. I did mention, however, that the keys of my 10G looked like the Blue Grotto. To explain, the keys actually started getting eaten away in irregular crater or valley like formations. The surface of the keys became not only rough, but sharp edged.
That having been said, I don't know why anyone wouldn't pefer to keep "that new car smell" if that were a proffered option.
It may be a good time to re-post the annecdote about Richard Stoltzman wearing out the keys of his nickel R13 to the point were he needs to have new keys refabricated for him every now and then.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-04 16:31
> To explain, the keys actually started getting eaten away in irregular crater
> or valley like formations. The surface of the keys became not only rough, but
> sharp edged.
That sounds very much like electrolytic erosion. Do you often play on nylon carpeting (or other flooring material that is subject to electrostatic charging)? You sure that sparkling mood came from your playing?
--
Ben
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-05-04 18:52
I have switched to Hamilton plated Yamaha YSg clarinets and have used them all season long with great success. The tone is very even and has a super ease in all registers..The key work is excellent And I have had not one drop of tarnish whatsoever!!! the keys feel very nice under the fingers and touch is very immediate and clean.
.I think Yamaha are on the right track and have improved their clarinet line greatly....
. However, I am sure others will think Buffet is the only way.
That is fine...I just think for my own reasons Yamaha makes a fine clarinet worthy of professional use...I get comments all the time on how fine I sound.
Joaquin Valdepanas in the Toronto symphony is also using them and he sounds absolutely marvelous...(this did not influence my decision.)
Bill Jackson sounds very good on his and I have recordings to prove it.
On top of it the Yamaha YSG clarinets are very realistically priced and have a excellent five year warranty. I
I have had not one iota of trouble with the clarinets since I started using them last fall...(this is not an endorsement) In fact they play better now then at that time.
What Yamaha have done here is quite remarkable...many freinds of mine have tried them are quite impressed. I use V12 #4 reeds and a Hite mouhpiece and play in tune throughout all registers with great ease and comfort.
ps these are not R13 like in any way...so if you are expecting an R13 like copy forget it.
David Dow
Post Edited (2007-05-04 18:55)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-04 19:51
If they ever make the CSGs in full Boehm configuration I could be swayed (and I have seen an older 80 series Yamaha full Boehm set listed on you-know-where) - I play Yamaha saxes anyway and these are gems, especially the Custom series which are flawless.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-05-05 06:57
> So what I wonder is, if Yamaha can come up with a key that is (so far)
> impervious to corosion of any kind, why is it that this had not been
> discovered by other manufacturers heretofore, and why haven't other
> manufacturers not jumped on this bandwagon.
If you are also asking why other manufacturers haven't dicovered this before, then you could ask that about any discovery in history. If you are only asking why other manufacturers haven't added this option after Yamaha, then there are probably many reasons. Maybe they'll have to raise the prices more than they want, maybe they don't want to add another plating (will take them too much time/money), maybe they don't use ideas that come from outside sources (I know for a fact some companies have this rule), etc.
> Are we as consumers insistant upon "Silver" keys to the exclusion
> of gold or gold alloys or are we just not informed of this benefit?
Definitely not. Some clarinetists (including professionals of the highest level) play nickel plated clarinets and prefer them over silver. I'm also guessing that the number of people with the problem you describe is minimal. I have silver plated clarinets and the plating hasn't worn off in almost three years that I play them, and I never wipe the keys after playing.
A few other things I noticed, is eventhough when I try to slide my finger on a key I can feel a difference between nickel and silver (nickel is more slippery) when actually playing the clarinets there is almost no difference.
Plus there are many other reasons why some people prefer some platings and not others (for example I would never buy gold plating) and I'm sure these are different for many different persons.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-05-05 10:55
Quote:
If you are only asking why other manufacturers haven't added this option after Yamaha, then there are probably many reasons. Maybe they'll have to raise the prices more than they want, maybe they don't want to add another plating (will take them too much time/money), This and what else was mentioned above about clarinetists being so used to sliver/nickel are probably why. Many clarinetists would probably not want to deviate from what they are used to and what they 'know' works. This is probably why the R13 dominates the market like it does. People know others that play R13s and sound good, so they assume that if even though there are other options out there, why bother? They 'know' an R13 is great.
Reason it hasn't caught on basically is probably due to the marketing aspect. It's different and clarinetists (as far as I can tell) are all about tradition and not deviating from the given path. In general, the ultimate setup includes a WOODEN clarinet (cause no other material would be as good of course), NICKEL or SILVER plated keys (gold or anything else is 'just for show'), BLADDER SKIN pads on bottom with maybe CORK pads on top (too much contreversy with other materials such as leather, valentino, etc), with a CHEDEVILLE or KASPAR style mouthpiece. Cause that's what's worked since the dawn of time.
I wouldn't expect the plating or pads or materials or anything else to change on clarinets that much. Cause makers know their clarinets will sell with what they're making now and probably are reluctant to spend on the money on machinery, materials and advertising to HOPE to make sales when they're doing fine as is.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-05-05 10:59
"Be not the first by whom new things are tried / Nor the last to cast the old aside" -- Alexandre Pope.
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-05-05 13:33
I use the Vandoren Cloth (felt like material) to wipe off my keys. The Silver treated cloths remove the silver from the keys in very small amounts, but it does add up so I avoid that unless there is tarnish, etc.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-05-05 14:40
Once, as a much younger man, after having spoken Pope's little adage to my mother regarding some long forgotten matter, I will always remember her retort. "So, now planteth he, the seed of mediocrity." For the past 40 years I have avoided quoting Pope to my mom . . . she remains a quick wit and scathing tongue that I dast not test. Eu
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Author: YoungFlarinet
Date: 2007-05-05 16:19
I too have an acidic sweat problem. It does make my skin so soft (everyone is always jealous), but it tarnishes my keys so fast. We took my old noblet 45 to a shop to be adjusted one time after we had it for about three years, and the guy was like "there is no way you bought this new three years ago, keys don't tarnish that fast, it was used and already a little tarnished and they told you it was new." I'm pretty sure it was new, and it wasn't tarnished at all.
With my new clarinet I got a few months ago, I wipe off the keys with a yellow feltish cloth that came with the noblet 45 that I never used. Apparently there was one key I never polish (one of the banana keys on the top piece) and it shows signs of tarnish.
Me, I will always polish my keys, no matter how obsessive my friends and director think I am.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-05-05 17:20
Before I put my clarinets away in the case, I always polish the keys and body using one of those super soft "micro-fiber" face towels. I carry one in each clarinet case for that purpose. Eu
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-05-05 17:26
If I'm not mistaken, Hamilton Plating is a Gold Nickel mix. It is supposed to resist tarnish and corrosion better than other metals.
Chris
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2007-05-06 01:27
In a discussion about firearms, a man wrote that his skin caused such severe corrosion problems, he hated to handle anyone else's firearms. When he reduced the amount of salt in his diet, this problem went away.
I do not know if any research has been done on this issue, but it might be worth trying for those experiencing corrosion problems with their musical instruments.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-05-06 12:35
I cannot find any reference to Hamilton plating being used on flutes. I wonder why.
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Author: old999
Date: 2007-05-06 17:09
My Buffet R 13 is about a year and a half old. I have never wiped the keys (silver) and they look as though they were brand new. I wonder if they have some sort of proitetive finish. My 35-year-old Amstrong Heritage flute (not silver), by comparison, is badly tarnished, and got that way early on. Polishing helps a little bit
Al
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2007-05-06 23:37
Two more thoughts on key corrosion:
If you are dehydrated, your skin oils and sweat are going to be more concentrated, and therefore, more corrosive.
Metals corrode faster as humidity increases. A case humidifier might be good for the wood clarinet, but bad for the metal keys.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2007-05-10 21:57
Apparently, there is not one standard alloy composition for Hamilton gold. It seems to be 14k gold, and is listed as being harder and more durable than other gold platings in the 12-24k range.
My new Woodwind & Brasswind catalog lists the Yamaha clarinet with silver-plated keys as $250 more than with nickel-plated keys. The Hamilton keys are $200 more than the silver-plated keys. I would hesitate to pay $450 (retail) over nickel-plated keys, but your needs and wants may differ.
For people with nickel allergies, gold must be at least 18k in order to remain passive. Therefore, these people may still have a problem with Hamilton gold.
Although 316 stainless steel contains nickel, it remains passive and is unlikely to cause problems. That is why it is popular for medical implants and body piecings. Solid 316 keys would be my ultimate choice, because of its hardness and because there is no plating to wear through or flake off.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-05-10 23:53
You wouldn't consider Liquidmetal? Very accurately and cheaply cast-able, lighter, stronger, etc etc than titanium. Seemingly it's only downside is that it may be too brittle for adjustment bending, and breaks (if they occur) may not be solderable or weldable.
http://www.liquidmetal.com/
And imagine the BS advertising on the acoustic advantages of one of its unique properties... For ball bouncer: Click on “Media Center”, “Multimedia”, Ball Bouncer Demonstration – DSL/CABLE
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Author: Wes
Date: 2007-05-12 06:14
The nickel plating on my quite new R13 feels too slippery to me, so I paint the touch keys and rings with clear nail polish. This feels great to me and I expect that it may also minimize the wear of the plating. Later, I'll recoat it if needed, a simple task.
However, I had a gold plated instrument for a while and loved the way it felt.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-05-12 23:53
Wes,
WOW!!!! Nail polish is tacky to the Nth degree. I tried that on one key once and thought it a foolish mistake (for me), but if the feel works for you that would indeed completely seal your keys from exposure to oxygen and finger grease.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-13 00:08
Paul,
I've done this in a number of cases (the Ab "fly-by" key is a good example). Works great, costs next to nothing and is easily undone.
You decide - a tarnished near-black key or a procedure your wife can just mildly smile about...
--
Ben
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-05-13 15:16
The amount of silver or even gold used to plate keys is tiny -- certainly under an ounce. I assume the cost of applying chrome and silver plating is about the same, so the $350+ differential Buffet charges for silver plating is a rip off.
Still, if I bought a new clarinet, I'd pay the extra for silver, since I'm allergic to nickel and hate the slippery feel. Fortunately, my sweat is not acidic, so the silver plated and unplated German silver keys on my clarinets don't deteriorate.
Powell makes flutes of Aurumite, which they say is alternating layers of gold and silver with outer gold plating. What I wouldn't give for an Aurumite-body clarinet, made to Powell construction standards!
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-13 15:36
Silver plate is the thickest, and is usually applied to 25 microns for a good quality finish - though makers can specify on the thickness, some makers only apply 8 microns or less of silver which isn't durable at all.
Nickel plate is only a few microns thick (usually less than 10 microns) and silver is often plated onto nickel due to the smooth finish, and gold plate (usually applied over silver plate) is only around 3 microns.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-05-13 15:50
(Disclaimer - I am designer of the Forte' Bb and C clarinets)
Yes, the actual cost differential for silver over nickel plating is small but just like "wanted" accessories on cars the markup is large versus the actual cost. The selling price is commensurate with the demand. Silver plating scratches more easily than nickel and more care has to exercised during assembly which may add to the cost.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
Post Edited (2007-05-13 15:53)
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