 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2007-05-03 03:25
Hi all, I'm normally over at the oboe board, but once again I'm here with a question on behalf of my daughter.
She is a junior in high school, plays clarinet (a Selmer Bundy) in her high school band, she is 4th chair out of six players, tonight was the Big Spring Concert, and she says that (a) she is the only one with a plastic clarinet (insert Teen Drama here, "I'm the ONLY ONE with a PLASTIC CLARINET!!"), (b) she is frequently flat, being singled out by the director upon occasion, and (c) if she only had a wooden clarinet she wouldn't be flat.
Now, before this flatness issue came up, we had already had her Aunt Janet's wooden Normandy clarinet from the early 1970s refurbished, but she tried to play it when it came back a couple weeks ago, and the octave wouldn't jump (if that's the term I want). Overblow? On the oboe, you push the octave key and you get an octave higher; I understand that on the clarinet, you do this and you get a 12th higher. Anyway, she says it won't go there, so the next step is to contact the music store that did the refurbishing and have her play it for them, see if they can figure out why it won't jump.
Anyway, does she really need a wood clarinet to not be flat? Plastic oboes by certain manufacturers are well-respected; it isn't a "given" that you need a wooden oboe to sound good. Is the same true for clarinets?
I told her I would ask the Clarinet BBoard, and would (probably) abide by their decision. If a Selmer Bundy is really hopeless, then we'll look into a good used wooden clarinet. The thing is, she's only going to be doing this another year--she's not going to be a music major in college--so I don't want to spend a lot on it.
ETA: She's using Mitchell Lurie reeds, if that makes a difference vis-a-vis the Normandy clarinet not playing the octave.
Post Edited (2007-05-03 03:28)
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-05-03 04:08
I will want to see other more experienced players explain their thoughts, but my own is that I would think there are plenty of other variables to look out for before you need to go out and buy a new clarinet. I would also tend to think that no, it isn't just the fact that it's plastic.
My advice: Start with the source of the sound. Mouthpieces, reeds, and barrels are relatively cheap compared to a new instrument (I'm talking mass produced, non-professional stuff here , not hand made, etc...you know what I mean), not to mention the most important aspect of sound and tuning. Perhaps you need a shorter barrel for that instrument. Do you know the length of the barrel by chance? Sometimes there is a small number written on the side. If you know, post some information on her mouthpiece, barrel, etc...
I'm afraid I can't relate perfectly to a plastic clarinet - Even when I started playing in 3rd grade, I started with my good ol' Selmer Signet, a wooden clarinet.
Also: This may sound stupid, and I mean no discredit, but are we certain she isn't relatively in tune while every else plays sharp? I know it sounds funny, but playing once in high school band myself, I know for a fact that the entire band used to play almost ridiculously sharp without the director caring. I found it particularly bad in the clarinet section, because some kids play with minimal air support and incredible jaw pressure which sends the pitch waaaay up North.
CA
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2007-05-03 04:09
Plastic or wooden won't make a difference in basic intonation tendencies. The particular instrument/embouchure/mouthpiece will make more difference. As a senior in high school next year, she would be well-served to have at least a step-up from the Bundy. They are great for beginners, but can hold a player back in a way a better instrument - either wood or plastic - would not. I'd go with a used wooden clarinet myself.
johng
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: glin
Date: 2007-05-03 04:10
Without being to see her play or assess the condition of the instrument, it is hard to say. Best to have an experienced player and woodwind technician listen to her and check out her instrument. It could very well be her embouchure, mouthpiece, or reed instead of the Bundy clarinet.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-05-03 04:12
My friend plays on a old selmer bundy too, and she too had the same problem. She was playing flat and bought a buffet barrel (first) then bought a robert scott barrel that corrected the problem. There's a lot of mental stress when people are telling you that you are doing something wrong when your really unable to correct it without the right equipment (in your daughter's case, it would be needing a shorter barrel) But now that she is a junior in highschool, she would probably benefit from an upgrade to a wood clarinet (unless she marches frequently, then you should look into reputuable rubber clarinets: Lyrique by Tom rideneour, and the Forte clarinet that Omar the clarinet doctor sells)
Other issues: pad heights are screwy or pads aren't sealing correctly. use the search function at the top of this post and search under "fixing leaks" and you might find some answers.
also remeber this old saying: 90% of the sound comes from the mouthpiece, barrel, reed, and ligature combination. the rest of it comes from the actual clarinet.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2007-05-03 04:18
Simply put, the material a clarinet is made from has no affect on the pitch. The sources of her problem could be any of these things:
- She may be playing flat because of an undeveloped embouchure, especially if she's using soft reeds ("Soft" is relative, but with a mouthpiece with a "standard' opening, soft would be 1/2 or 2 reeds.)
- The instrument may have been sloppily manufactured, with the tone holes "off," though this isn't likely with a Bundy, which is a good student model and has been produced for years. (Note that I write, "isn't likely," not "impossible."
- The mouthpiece may play flat, though this also would be unusual.
These are three major things, but there are other things that could cause the problem.
Get a lesson for her with a competent player who can evaluate her embouchure and reed choice. Also have him/her play her clarinet to see if the pitch problem is there for that player too. A competent player will be able to tell immediately what part of the system is at fault (not that it may not be more than one part.)
If she were playing one of those cheap imports, I might look at the clarinet first, but not in this case.
It's PROBABLY true that MOST wood clarinets are manufactured to higher tolerances than the cheaper lines of student plastic clarinets, but it's not the material that makes a difference, it's the engineering. I've played many Bundys, Vitos, etc., and never found one that was grossly out of tune. Some of them have actually been wonderful instruments.
Find a good player to check out the entire system, from your daughter, to the reed, to the mouthpiece, to the clarinet, first. And don't fall victim to the wood/plastic myth.
Hope this helps. Contact me off-list if I can help further.
Bruce
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-05-03 11:08
I would say that "voicing" could be an issue. That is one must form their oral cavity as if saying "eeeee" to get the best pitch and projection.
Also, there ARE mouthpieces that play lower or higher. I have an expensive custom mouthpiece that plays consistantly 10 cents (on the KORG) lower than (for example) a Vandoren NON-series 13.
That being said, I dislike the Selmer student line clarinets the most, Yamaha being my prefered weapon of choice. Although I never advocate running out for new equipment to solve problems, hopefully the fully restored Normandy will work better for your daughter.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2007-05-03 12:53
Wow, that was fast for overnight! Thanks, all. I will look into finding a good clarinet teacher to listen to her and give some feedback. She actually had six lessons last summer with the local pre-eminent clarinet teacher, but never came home and practiced any of what he told her, so I'll give him a call and see if he has an hour to spend with us.
The barrel is the original Selmer Bundy. She's using a Van Doren mouthpiece on the advice of the aforementioned teacher, and her reeds are 3 1/2. He also recommended a Rovner Dark ligature, but I told her last summer that until I saw some determination to improve (as in "practicing") I didn't feel like popping for that, after already having spent $65 on the mouthpiece.
And when she had her lessons with him, I was sitting there in the living room listening (well, ostensibly I was reading a book but...), and when she played little duets with him, matching his pitch wasn't an issue.
I doubt whether it's that the entire band (this is a big high school, and a big band) is playing to A 445. It's much more likely that it's her own personal issue that she'll need to resolve, by "practicing".
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2007-05-03 13:25
A lot of good advice here. A few other thoughts. You could borrow or buy a tuner and check for yourself. If she was in pitch with her teacher then it may be that she is holding back in the group and not using enough air, or someting has changed with the carinet since playing with her teacher.
...Jim
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-03 14:01
"She's using a Van Doren mouthpiece on the advice of the aforementioned teacher, and her reeds are 3 1/2."
Has she tried playing on softer reeds? It seems to me that she is using too hard a reed than she's comfortable with, and it wouldn't do any harm to try a softer reed.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-05-03 14:22
If she's not practicing, why buy her a wood clarinet? (May sound harsh, but it certainly sounds like this may be the case.)
As far as Chris' suggestion on softer reeds, I'm right there too. Using 3s will probably help. Reed strength does not equal ability!
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-05-03 15:09
If she were my child, and if the equipment she had now turned out not to be defective, then I think I'd tell her we'd wait buy new equipment until she learned the habit of practicing what the teacher sends home. If she's not coming home and practicing her own choice of music, either, then lack of practice may be the whole cause of the flat pitch. Loose, flabby embouchure gives a husky, unfocussed tone quality and also flattens the pitch. She may have "no lip"--her embouchure may not be firm enough because the muscles supporting the embouchure are so out of condition.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-05-03 16:30
If it's not the embouchure (as mentioned above), then it could be the instrument. The barrel may be a bit too long and a shorter barrel would help fix the immediate need. However, I also think it's time to upgrade or you're going to end up with a discouraged kid who starts to hate clarinet. I would also ask her instructor if it would be possible to meet one on one with her to try to figure out what's going on. Paying for several private lessons might be another solution and perhaps a cheaper one.
Without playing the instrument or being with your student to evaluate the problem it's hard to give a good answer to your problem.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-05-03 19:37
At the risk of more teen angst, I would deal with the problem in this order:
Change/look at the mouthpiece/reed combination. Despite being the inventor of a unique ligature, I would not bother with it at this point, just the reed strength and the mouthpiece facing, which are the most likely factors to matter (other than the player herself).
2) If that doesn't produce results, look at barrel length. A little more expensive to correct, but certainly better than a whole horn
3) If that doesn't produce results, sub in the other clarinet. There has been nothing wrong with the Noblet horns I've encountered in the past (it's an intermediate instrument; similar to the Selmer Signet line), and almost any clarinet player could coax a good sound that was basically "in tune" on one of these.
One other thing that always bothers me about "student level" clarinets. While the tone hole seats for the pads are always well done, very often the rings (which are much harder to adjust well) are set too far above the cylindrical finger seats protruding from the body of the clarinet. Particularly with slim feminine digits, they can be set too high to allow for a good, tight seal without clenching the hand; this it turn plays havoc with the fingering technique
Of course, you could always use the ultimate threat on here: "Either grin and bear it or I'll have you take up oboe!" Some might view this as child abuse, however.
(I'm just back from a long lunch with my son, who used to play bassoon, and we spent the dinner hour rehashing my current experience with that instrument. He's a firm advocate of the "No seal hand rest" school, and the discussion got pretty animated at several points. One wonders what the folks at the neighboring tables thought...)
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-05-03 21:48
A couple of observations from a parent of a teenage clarinetist:
You said: "She actually had six lessons last summer with the local pre-eminent clarinet teacher, but never came home and practiced any of what he told her, so I'll give him a call and see if he has an hour to spend with us."
Right there this tells me that buying a more expensive clarinet will not make that much of a difference. If she doesn't care to try to get any better when you spring for (relatively) inexpensive lessons, what makes you think things will get better when you blow a minimum of $1000 for a good Lyrique and mouthpiece, or a more for an E-series Buffet, or (God forbid!) three grand on an R13? Unless she is planning on continuing past high school, she has not invested the effort that would justify you laying out the bucks for a decent horn. Call me an ogre if you will, but that's the way I see it. Certainly the Doctor's very reasonably priced Forte or the less expensive of Tom Ridenour's two Lyrique models would be a s much as I would ever *consider* spending in that case. And if she is only going to be playing for one more year and refuses to practice anyway, you would be wasting even that amount of money.
For info on the Lyrique RCP-576b: http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/Bbclarpg.html
For info on the Forte: http://www.forteclarinet.com/horns/bflat.htm
I suppose you could go for broke and try your luck at finding a used bargain on EvilBay, also, but your chances would be better geting a new horn from one of the two gentlemen listed above.
As to the Mitchell Lurie reeds, that shouldn't be the problem. My daughter uses them on her Vandoren M13 mouthpiece while playing my old Buffet R13 several hours each day, and she always sounds great! The two of us play in an adult band together.
Jeff
Post Edited (2007-05-03 22:04)
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2007-05-03 23:38
Get her to practice more with the understanding that she can only have a nice, new instrument if she can prove that she's dedicated enough that you won't be wasting your hard-earned money.
I would say that, if you can get her to practice, a Buffet E-11 for a little over $1000 would be a good instrument. WWBW is even selling it with a decent Vandoren mouthpiece and their Optimum ligature (I would use one of those if I could afford it).
If she won't practice, then she doesn't get a new clarinet. That's fair. I think she will come around to practicing if she really cares. I do understand the stigma associated with plastic clarinets in High School bands.
Another good option would be a wooden Noblet off of eBay. Those are good clarinets, I hear, and they're often sold for CHEAP. We're talking under $150. I've considered, at various times, getting one as a backup for when I need to bring my R-13 to the shop.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-05-04 00:07
I had never heard of the "stigma associated with plastic clarinets in High School bands" before this last post.
When I was in H.S. (82-86), plastic clarinets were de rigeur and not an issue. I was the only one with 2 wood clarinets! I used the Signet for marching and the R13 for indoors. Noone thought any better or worse of anyone based on wood vs. plastic. Now, specific brands...if you had an Artley you MUST be better than if you had a Bundy...
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2007-05-04 01:15
Katrina wrote:
> I had never heard of the "stigma associated with plastic
> clarinets in High School bands" before this last post.
Oh how times have changed. Around here, if you don't have a wooden clarinet, you aren't the real deal. You go to a district clinic and this year I definitely paid more attention than last year and the say first 12 clarinets or so were wooden, most of them were Buffet E-11s. Then you get to All state and this year I did not see any plastic clarinets.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2007-05-04 02:24
Besides all of the other possibilities listed for flatness, poor air support is a very strong possiblity. I was working with a lady in our community band who was extremely flat on the higher notes. Once I got here to improve her air support, the problem went away.
As the others have said, the material makes no difference in playing in tune. In my batch of horns, I have a plastic Vito that is beautifully in tune and a wooden Conn Pan American that is horribly out of tune. My main instrument is a Leblanc Symphonie II from the 1950s but I use the Vito as a backup.
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Author: D
Date: 2007-05-04 13:54
I vote for getting someone to check the instrument. Perhaps you know someone who plays well yourself from your own musical connections who could have a quick blow and see if it really is playing flat. From what you say about your daughters playing habits it does sound rather like it is lack of practice and the consequent lack of muscle strength in the diaphragm and mouth that are causing the problem.
One thing you might try (and it might help her believe you are taking her problem seriously), is to get your hands on a few vandoren reeds. The problem 'could' be that the Mitchell Lauree are not quite right for her particular mouthpiece. Vandoren should be a better fit for their own mouthpieces, although we could debate all year about the quality of various brands and their consistency. If she has been using a ML 3.5 then a vandoren 2.5 or 3 is perhaps the same relative strength. If you can have a look at her mouthpiece and see which particular VD it is then go to the vandoren website and have a look at the charts on there. There is one really good one which tells you how open various mouthpieces are and what number and style of reed is recommended for it. I found that they generally know what they are talking about! Nothing wrong with ML reeds, but trying VD is the second cheapest thing to try, after getting the instrument checked by someone else.
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2007-05-04 15:51
Many thanks to everyone for the very helpful input.
I checked her against the piano yesterday when she came home from school, and yeah, she was flat. And her dad's considered judgement vis-a-vis a new clarinet was, "If she wants a new clarinet, she can buy it herself", since she is eminently employable, being nearly-17 and with 3 months' work at Walgreens this past winter on her resume.
She couldn't get Aunt Janet's Normandy clarinet from the 1970s to play above the lowest octave, so yesterday we took it back to the music store tech geek who refurbished it, and he said in surprise that he himself had played it for "hours" the afternoon before we picked it up. But we walked in with it assembled, and she whipped it out and stood there and couldn't get it to play right there in front of him, so he was, like, "Hmm..." and said that maybe there was a piece of shellac caught under a key, so he's going to look at it.
Our hope was that this would be a feasible instrument for her to take to school, but he remarked that it has a bore like a Buffet and is harder to blow, so maybe it's just that she couldn't play it, not that there was anything wrong with the clarinet.
She did clarinet through middle school, from 5th to 8th grade, but then for 9th grade her high school made her choose between choir and band, so she chose choir for 9th and 10th grades, but then got fed up with the choir director, who was kind of a ditz, and went back to band for this past year (11th grade) after the short 6-lesson course of refresher lessons last summer.
So I suppose that basically her embouchure is still kind of "frozen in time" at the 8th grade level.
Anyway, our next step is definitely going to be to look for a teacher for the summer, and this time she swears she's going to practice. I suspect that what brought this on was the sudden acute perception that next September there are going to be a flock of sophomores moving up into Wind Symphony from Concert Band, and that she might very well end up as last chair behind a bunch of...[gasp] little kids. Especially if she's the only one who's chronically flat, and the director spent all last year telling her so.
Last fall, when she ended up at 4th chair out of 6, without ever practicing, I asked her what she thought was going to happen her senior year, and pointed out with some foreboding that she shouldn't expect to get so lucky twice in a row. And she said casually, "Well, the 1st and 2nd chair are both seniors, so when we all move up, that makes me 2nd chair." Evidently she forgot that there were going to be incoming sophomores, or thought that chair assignments went through seniority, not merit.
And yes, she is kind of "blonde" sometimes, why do you ask? ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
So maybe that will provide some motivation to take her teacher's precepts to heart this time around.
Anyway, once again, thanks.
Post Edited (2007-05-04 15:55)
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Author: D
Date: 2007-05-04 18:10
hang on, she's chronically flat, never practices, and there are two kids WORSE! oh dear, my ears hurt from here and I am a considerable distance away!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-05-04 19:14
Well, she would be able to afford the Forte easier than the Lyrique if she's going to pay for it herself. And, I would say either would be a HUGE improvement over what she's using now and would probably last through her clarinet career. Especially since you say she doesn't particularly care for practicing, this gives me a clue that she probably won't be a clarinet major in college or trek off into the professional world of music.
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-05-04 22:28
"I doubt whether it's that the entire band (this is a big high school, and a big band) is playing to A 445. It's much more likely that it's her own personal issue that she'll need to resolve, by "practicing" "
^ In no way did I think that this is likely, I guess I was ranting more about my fellow players in the band more than anything else :-)
Good that you have so many ideas now.
CA
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-05-05 13:40
"I had never heard of the "stigma associated with plastic clarinets in High School bands" before this last post."
----------------------------------
Depending on the group, it is absolutely there. Plastic Clarinets are looked at as the starter clarinet or the marching band clarinet and not for the advanced players. Pitch wouldn't be a factor at all though - tone would.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2007-05-05 18:58
> "I had never heard of the "stigma associated with plastic
> clarinets in High School bands" before this last post."
It's bad. I remember when I was at All-State band in CA (I went on bass clarinet), a clarinetist friend of mine was the only one in the entire clarinet section who didn't have an R13, and he spent the whole weekend complaining.
I got my R13s from my dad so that I would have better instruments to play in college, and I know that when I was auditioning for colleges, I was usually the only one in line who was still playing on a student clarinet (Buffet E13, a nice instrument). Looking back, I have sometimes wished I had the R13s for college auditions, but then I really think about it. I just wish I was as motivated and hardworking as I am now. That's the real key.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-05 19:10
When we see kids singled out when they can't afford certain brand clothes, why should it be different with instruments?
Sad thing to see that the logo on the gear seems to count more than the one operating it...
--
Ben
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Author: Katelyn
Date: 2007-05-05 19:45
""I'm the ONLY ONE with a PLASTIC CLARINET!!"), (b) she is frequently flat, being singled out by the director upon occasion, and (c) if she only had a wooden clarinet she wouldn't be flat. "
I remember using similar lines on my parents, my argument was tone, though.
I'm glad you're making her work for a clarinet. Until my junior year, I only had "Roxie," my Artley and drooled over Buffets at the music store. Eventually my parents and I came to an agreement the summer before my senior year - they would buy me one, but I had to get a job and pay them back before I graduated and pay for any more clarinet paraphenelia (reeds, etc.) and continue to play in college as long as it didn't interfere with my major. Now I have "Lestat," my R13 and two hundred dollars more to pay before the end of May.
A wood clarinet will indeed help her tone, but not whether or not she's in tune. But really, it is possible to make a plastic clarinet sound good enough to place high in the chair rankings. Experiment with reeds, mouthpieces and ligatures. I've found that a worn out Mitchell Lurie won't react as well on the higher registers as a new one.
If she's used to playing one clarinet, she may have developed some 'habits' that are unique to that instrument. It's possible that she's using a level of air that was okay for her Bundy, but not for the Noblet.
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-05-05 21:40
I made All-Virginia Band on a plastic bundy in 9th grade. Had only played Clarinet for 2 years and was glad to make it. But I was the only one there with a plastic clarinet.
1st chair that year was San Francisco Sym Clarinetist Luis Baez
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Author: MichaelR
Date: 2007-05-05 22:23
Is she enthused, or afraid enough of playing behind sophomores to make a practice commitment? As in "30 hours on your current clarinet down" and "six hours a week through next spring". (Out of the air numbers!) So she can "buy" her clarinet by working for herself and her parents practicing? I have a bias toward always using the best tool you can acquire.
When you revisited the shop with the aunt's clarinet did the technician play it in front of you? It didn't sound like it, but after your daughter demonstrated the problem I'm curious about whether the tech. was willing to pull out his mouthpiece and give a demonstration.
I can emphasize with her wanting to escape from the plastic clarinet stigma dungeon. Last winter I bought myself a Lyrique to get away from my plastic Bundy. I certainly don't have the best practice history either. The Lyrique does help too. If nothing else I have a no excuses instrument. (The mechanism is easier to play.) The problem is me or ... me.
It is a great relief to have no excuse.
--
Michael of Portland, OR
Be Appropriate and Follow Your Curiosity
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