 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-04-29 09:51
Beyond this simple question lie a few other points, so I hope you'll indulge me.
I am a complete beginner, and a "mature" student, which may have implications.
I am the bloke who posted earlier about an embouchure problem. Well, I do have that problem, because I simply am physically unable to execute single lip. However, having recognised this, and having accepted that double lip is much more natural to me, this is not my main "squeak" problem.
In a process of progressive revelation, it became clear that problems were much more serious when playing the right hand notes. This was because as I used the fingers of the right hand, my left ring finger was leaving the C hole partially uncovered. This was an involuntary action, but once recognised was correctable.
Then, playing down to low G was not a ( consistently) serious problem. Whilst playing low F is often not a problem when going down the F major scale, trying to finger this note from scratch is fraught, and invariably results in a squeak, because I am not covering all the right hand note holes completely. I have tried using the left hand F key, but this doesn't seem much eaier. I do find the alternative fingerings a tad confusing, and as a beginner would prefer to be told " do it this way", and deviate only if this causes me a serious problem ( as in embouchure).
So the original question: is there a preferred F key, left or right, or is this "student choice"? Please forgive me if this is a pdq, but I have not seen it addreesed in the literature.
An ancillary question is: What is the recommended angle of the fingers of ( particularly) the right hand to the tone holes, vertical, horizontal, in between? This may be important to someone with less than perfectly pliable digits!
tia
Clive
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-04-29 10:26
Check out these fingering chards; the "main" fingering is usually at the top of each list.
The "finger angle" is not easy to answer without having seen your hands. For me it's roughly a 30° angle from the horizontal position. This is where my finger tips are "roundest" and seal the tone holes perfectly.
I'm not sure whether or not you mentioned it already - do you have a teacher? Do get one, it's money well spent. Certain basics need to be demonstrated from person to person. If for some reason you can't do that, check out this book; it helped me over my first teacherless weeks. Good pictures, good advice. It is, however, not a replacement for a real teacher.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-29 10:30
Hold your fingers so they're roughly perpendicular to the clarinet, though slightly angled upward if that's more comfortable and secure for you - it really depends on your physiology of what works best for you, and the thumbrest position can play a critical role here as well.
As for the F key, use the right F key as your main one. On all woodwinds they have used the same system from high to low - LH 1, 2, 3 - RH 1, 2, 3 and 4 - so the RH F key is always the best one to use as the primary fingering.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-04-29 10:46
Thanks gents.
I will check out the references supplied.
Yes, latterly I do have a teacher ( one lesson so far!). Slight problem is that he is very much younger than me, and all his pupils are even younger, so perhaps stiff finges are not something he has encountered much?
His instruction for thumb rest position is at the knuckle, but in that position my fingers just won't bend around to cover the tone holes. However, that is comfortable and well balanced, whereas at the fingernail position, whilst I can cover the wholes, the instrumnet is not at all well balanced. I think this is something I will just have to work through.
Clive
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Author: D
Date: 2007-04-29 11:19
something that works for me is to put the pad of the thumb on the thumb rest so the pad is effectively pointing straight up. Then put the fingers on the finger holes. The thumb turns a little and ends up in pretty much a normal position. For some reason I find this vastly more comfortable than putting the thumb on sideways to start with.
What sort of thumb rest is on your clarinet? If you do not already have one I would recommend trying a thumbrest cushion. Not everyone likes them but it is cheap experiment. I particularly like the wide squashy ones, rather than the harder smaller ones. Fortunately the squashier ones are cheaper.
If I may, for purposes of illustration mention - there is one for about a £1.20 on the Dawkes Music website by thum-eez which I find useful.
I am sure most music shops also sell them.
I you happen to know a good physiotherapist you might be able to get some exercises to do before you play to warm your hands up, make playing easier, and help you avoid injuries.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2007-04-29 12:17
Note that stiffness may be due to tension from trying too hard rather than age. It is a common problem.
Also it takes time for your "muscle memory" to learn exactly and precisely where the holes are so that you can cover them each and every time. So at the beginner stage it is quite normal to have squeaks from not getting the holes completely covered.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-04-29 15:00
Hello Clive,
The problems you describe I find commonly in the beginning clarinet classes that I teach. It is the independence of the ring fingers that is in question. The most important way to solve this problem (which you've accomplished) is to recognize it! With time (probably quicker than you think) your ring fingers will attain enough independence to seal the hole everytime and depsite what other digits are doing.
I agree with Chris that the right F is most common. I do teach others to use the left F but only when their pinky's are too short to use the right, a problem they solve by growing.
If placing the thumb rest towards the nail allows you greater success but increased instability, then buy a neckstrap. (I think the BG product is the best).
The angle of curvature to the clarinet, and shape of the fingers down to the hole is variable based on the size of your hands.
Each knuckle of each finger should be bent, so that the fingers curve down to their hole. It is common to see individuals whose knuckle closest to the hole is depressed and GENERALLY speaking those players will be sacrificing accuracy and legato.
My fingers (left and right) approach the clarinet at an angle far from the perpendicular recommended above (left is 45% and right is 35%). But I have short fingers!
Good Luck, and have fun with the lessons!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-04-29 16:11
Hey,'
i've been playing at the clarinet for like50-years, and still manage to open leaks under my fingers while reaching for those keys.
The keys in the "woodpile" are duplicated because you'll need to have alternative ways to make successive notes. Say going from F to E. You play F on one side and then E on the other. Say Left F followed by Right E, or Right F followed by Left E. Same for all of the other sequences of notes around there, involving G#, F, F#, E.
When you punch the register key, you shift this cluster of notes to the middle of the treble cleft staff: D#, C, C#, B
Bottom line: you'll need equal facility in reaching all of those keys --while still keeping those danged tone holes covered with your fingers.
It'll take a while, but it will come. I hope you have a fast passage through this learning rite.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-04-29 17:08
Thanks people.
D:
Thanks for you thumb alignment tip, which I'll try when I next get the beast out!
Difficult to describe the thumbrest in words, but basically it is an asymmetric L shaped bracket. The longer side is slotted and can slide up or down about an inch and a half on a securing screw on the triangular bracket in turn fixed to the clarinet body. The short side is only about half an inch maximum and projects at right angles to the clarinet body, and is covered in a hardish rubber material. I must say that it seems the invention of the devil to me! I will follow your Dawkes link and see what gives.
Dee:
Yes I am known as very intense in everyting I do, so I will try to relax a bit and see if things improve! Yes my fingers do need to learn where to go automatically for sure.
James:
Glad that I have recognised the problem of the indepdent ring finger!, and I now believe that training my right ring finger may be as impoortant as doing so for the left was. Your point about curving both knuckles is quite profound I think, and I will try this in my next practice session.. I guess this should look rather like the claw/talon of a bird of prey?
Like you, ther is no way that I could hold my fingers perpendicular to the clarinet. Like you I have rather stubby fingers.
Bob:
Well glad it can happen to an old hand as well! Of course I still have to venture outisde the chalumea register, but I take your point about the need to be flexible.
All:
I can "see" as I'm typing this that my right ring finger is very lazy, which effectively means my little finger is as well. Whereas I'm using most all fingers on my leaft hand, I'm probably only using thumb, index and middle on the right hand. Paradoxically if I try to use more, then my speed is reduced, but I suspect that in the long term that provide beneficial for the clarinet, so I must be disciplined!
Clive
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-04-29 22:47
Ring fingers are the weakest of all your fingers. Weaker than pinkies, even! They require much babying and patience.
As a recommendation for an exercise to improve your RH ring finger: Play low A and then slur to low G. Slur back and forth between these two notes, very slowly AND VERY EVENLY. Repeat this AGAGAGA...until you run out of breath. Take another breath and repeat. Resist any temptation to speed up until muscle memory is more solid. This, not necessarily adjusting your pinky fingering, should help!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-29 23:02
I'm too heavy using my ring finger - maybe years of bari sax playing has caused it to be the finger I slap down the hardest without thinking.
My oboe teacher noticed it everytime I went from A to G on the left hand and E to D on the right when playing oboe/cor, and commented on that it should be the weakest finger, not the heaviest.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-04-29 23:45
Katrina and Chris thanks!
Katrina, I'll certainly try that training exercise you suggest, sounds good!
Chris, not sure I have the same heavy handedness on the ring finger ( yet), but I've never picked up a sax, although if I ever master the clarinet, I'd certainly like to give it a try- told it's easier than clari.?
I'm slightly amused by youse guys' use of "pinky" finger. I can guess what it means, but over here we'd never say that. I remember when I was in the US a few years back, I was asked how long my stay was, and I replied a fortnight, and nobody new what I was talking about! We'd simply never think of saying ??? ?????. Can you guess what it is!
Divided by a common language?
Clive
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-30 08:28
I only ever use the word 'pinky' on here since it seems to be the general term for 'little finger' - and is quicker for me to type with two fingers (and not THOSE two fingers!).
And I'll be in Portsmouth Virginia for a fortnight soon - will make a change from our Portsmouth (Hants) where spending two days is enough!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-04-30 11:58
" Your point about curving both knuckles is quite profound I think, and I will try this in my next practice session.. I guess this should look rather like the claw/talon of a bird of prey?..."
Not that curved!! Pads on the opposite sides of the fingers from the nails are still flat on the ring keys and holes. More like the curve that they naturally take up when your hands hang relaxed at your sides. Don't use TIPS of fingers.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-30 12:10
And make sure your hands are held in such a way so there's an upward angle formed between the backs of your hands and forearms - this is done by holding your elbows outwards, and not tight against your sides.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-04-30 12:23
This is what I was taught:
1. Fingers horizontal. It's natural to let the hands sag - don't do this, it'll get your forefingers into trouble hitting the trill keys and the G# key and causing awful squeaks. Clarinetists eventually develop thumbs of iron (and a natural talent for massage :-D )
2. Play the hole with the soft pad of the finger (near where the whorl is in your fingerprint) not the fingertip like a trumpet.
3. Elbows: I wasn't told where to hold these, but I was taught not to flap.
As for the C/F key: I tend to favour the left, though it's less intuitive. This is because in flat keys the right hand has to be free to find the Eb/Ab.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-04-30 12:49
Excellent advice above, of course one's own hand structure must be taken into account, by hours of practice. I tend to prefer the Rt hand F/C, but frequently deliberately use the Lt, so if playing a cl without the "alternate Ab/Eb lever" and finding a cross-fingering "problem" my keying "memory" is renewed. When into music of many #'s/b's, I use my Full or "3/4th" Boehm cls at least for practice-acquaintance. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-04-30 22:46
Chris, Gordon, Bassie and Don.
Thanks for the further advice.
Today I've had some success with the fingers of the right hand much flatter and horizontal than previouly, as suggested above by Bassie. I'm conscious of the fact that I'm still a lot more angled on the left hand, so need to tackle that next.
I'll know I'm getting there when I can finger and blow low F from scratch ( easy when going down the scale) without getting a squeak.
If I go on like this I might be playing a melody by xmas rather than boring F major scales all the time ;-0
Clive
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-30 23:41
If you think of a woodwind instrument with no keys and just open holes (such as a recorder or Highland bagpipe chanter), then the holes will be covered by most of the fingers on each hand.
So with the descant or treble recorder in mind, the left hand is uppermost and the thumb, index, middle and ring fingers cover their respective holes. Then the right hand is below the left and the index, middle, ring and little fingers cover the remaining holes to completely close them all to get to the lowest note.
As there is no keywork at all, the lowes note can only be made to sound by the lowest finger covering the lowest hole so the lowest note issues through the footjoint. The left hand little finger is too far away to close the lowest tonehole.
This system has been used on nearly all woodwinds, and (most) non-Boehm system clarinets, flutes (to low C), oboes, bassoons and saxes have the low C (or F) key for the right hand little finger only. Except for the bassoon, the left hand little finger now controls the keywork for notes below this (there's a James Galway LP with him pictured on the sleeve with a gold flute that has a LH low B key, though flutes now generally have all the low notes - C, B and even Bb operated by the right hand little finger only).
It's only since the invention of the Boehm system clarinet where the right and (most of the) left hand little finger keys have been duplicated, so it almost eliminates sliding the little fingers which is why you see most non-Boehm clarinets, most modern bassoons, saxes and more expensive flutes fitted with rollers on both or all the RH little finger keys so it makes sliding from F-Ab or C-Eb much easier as these keys are operated by one finger only. But there are some Boehm system clarinets with rollers fitted to the RH F/C and Ab/Eb key touches - Louis (Chelsea), Couesnon and Marigaux have been a few makers that have done this.
As for clarinets, the 5-key clarinets had a fingerhole for the right pinky with the Eb key curling round above it which is why the Ab/Eb key is higher up the joint on modern clarinets (as well as saxes and flutes).
Only on oboes and bassoons is this trend reversed, and that arrangement can be traced back to the 2- or 3-keyed oboes (the 3-keyed oboes had two Eb keys so they could be played with either the left or right hand uppermost) where the low C touch is above the Eb key touch, and the 5-keyed bassoon where the low F key touch is above the Ab key touch.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-01 00:22
Thanks for the historical perspective Chris, you pointed out some things that I hadn't considered but were kind of floating around in the back of my head.
Bassie: One of the things that always complicates discussions like this we have to describe things that I would rather just see. Your fingers are horizontal to what? Do you mean parallel to the ground and perpendicular to the instrument?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-05-01 09:26
Chris:
Thanks also for your encyclopaedic history of woodwind instruments. As a complete novice, some ( much?) of this flew right over my head. However I have printed it out for future reference.
James:
You are clearly correct that semantics can confuse matters in such discussions. In fact I was immediately thrown when you wrote
<snip>
Your fingers are horizontal to what? Do you mean parallel to the ground and perpendicular to the instrument?
<snip>
I interpret "horizontal fingers" as being in a plane ( along their length) common to the instrument. Equally I would take "perpendicular to the instrument" to mean that the fingers ( below the knuckles anyway) are in a plane perpendicular to the instrument. That is the way I interpreted Bassie's "horizontal fingers", and indeed isn't that the only way that the whorl could be covering the hole; what say Bassie!
Sorry if this further complicates the matter, but I am a scientist not a musician; well I hope they are not mutually exclusive anyway!
Clive
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-01 10:13
My clarinet teacher pointed out that I have 'sax-player's fingers' in that I held my fingers at a downward angle when I played clarinet. Maybe because my main instrument is sax that I did this, and also with oboe playing the fingers are held at a downward angle as opposed to being completely or roughly perpendicular to the clarinet body.
With early clarinets (including 5- to 13-key clarinets), Albert or simple system, German and Oehler systems and the wider finger spacing these have (as well as the way the keys are mounted) it's better to play with the fingers held almost perpendicular to the instrument - especially the left hand so the LH levers (for E/B, F#,C# and the auxilliary Bb/F and Ab/Eb keys) are within reach.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-05-01 11:19
I also find the descriptions rather confusing. "fingers perpendicular to the clarinet" could mean a number of things. First of all most teachers say the fingers should be lightly curved....in which case none of the finger sections would be perpendicular. If one keeps the fingers relatively straight rather than curved then for the "pads" to cover the holes the fingers would be "tangent to the holes". If one kept the fingers truly perpendicular to the clarinet one couldn't cover the holes. At least that's how I see it.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-01 11:35
If you're observing from the front (as in a photo - in 2D), the fingers will appear to be perpendicular even though they are arched.
By perpendicular, I mean when viewed from the front the angle of the fingers along their length forms (almost) a right angle to the vertical centre line of clarinet body - viewed from the front. Like the letter E (formed by three fingers), but as fingers radiate outwards it is only 'like' the letter E. No-one has parallel fingers when stretched outwards.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-05-01 11:41
Horizontal = Parallel to the ground. Like holding a glass so the water doesn't spill.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-01 12:55
I would find horizontal finger alignment very hard to commit to.
As opposed to describing what my hands do in some geographic alignment with the clarinet, here's another way to describe the situation:
I hold my left fingers at an angle that allows me to cover the required tone holes, as well as being able to touch and activate the A and Ab keys with my index finger and the three lower joint keys E, F, F# as they are required. Generally speaking my left "little finger" rests on the E key.
To do this my fingers are at a 40+% degree angle to the downward line of the clarinet.
My right hand doesn't require QUITE the same angle because the index of the right hand doesn't have as many responsibilities. The index does touch the right hand Eb key almost always and the "little finger" generally rests on the F key.
About 30% of angle.
Does anyone have a good picture of Klose (from the beginning of his method books) that they can upload? (and he had much bigger hands than I!) I have to run off to teach...
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-05-01 14:07
> The index does touch the right hand Eb key almost always ...
Sounds quite extreme to me. But then, that's the key that gives me the most trouble personally. I find myself favouring the other fingerings for Eb/Bb, even though the trill key is the best sounding one and that little 'banana' key for the LH ring finger leads to all sorts of trouble.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-01 14:35
I would love to take the banana key off of some of my student's horns!
In this case maybe we should split the difference, Bassie. I never use the "one and one" Bb fingering! (please take never to mean almost never).
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-01 14:45
"I would love to take the banana key off of some of my student's horns!"
Even better still, take the key off, plug the tonehole with a cork pad and put the Eb cross key back on - as there's no note issuing from there anymore, they'll soon stop using it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-05-01 15:11
> I never use the "one and one" Bb fingering!
Well, it IS almost always flat.
Which means you really need one-and-two... which makes jumping to clarion F-natural or low Bb messy. Or one-and-three, or one-one-Eb key, or one-one-RH banana key, but they're all just a bit messed up if you ask me.
But I still find smooth jumps to the trill-key Bb difficult. (Any suggestions? If this is getting off topic I'll start a new thread.)
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-05-01 16:03
Bassie:
It's certainly gone off topic, but as the originator of the thread, I am lapping it up, so afaiac carry on.
It's ( mostly) gone over my head now, so you'll have to bear the burden!
Clive
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-01 16:32
Bassie,
The solution is to adjust your hand position so that you don't feel like that "trill" key is that great a stretch. If you begin you hand position so that your index finger is touching that key in the first place you will eventually become more comfortable with its use.
Yes, the "little finger" of the same hand will have an adjustment period because it will be subsequently a bit out of its normative position.
I put "trill" in quotes above because I've never thought of it as a trill key. I do understand why it could be thought of that way.
After that it's just a matter of doing simple exercises that use that key. The Klose short finger exercises come to mind, although you could just make up your own.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-05-01 17:15
I've just been practicing for a while and I've spent a lot of attention on some of my comments, and I'd like to modify something that I've said just a bit concerning right hand position.
Bassie, et al,
I do not find that my right index finger touches the Eb "trill" key as continuously as my "little fingers" keep their home keys. I do find that my index finger is always within 2-4 milimeters of the key.
I do think that it is unreasonable to develop the concept as I originially presented it. I am certain, however, that I would not have the ease of playing that I have if my fingers were not angled and gentley curved.
There! All done, back to the horn....
James
Gnothi Seauton
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