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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-30 15:02
How do you perform trills?
I usually start the trill by beginning the note, then introduce the trill slowly and then speed up and maintain the faster speed for the duration of the trilled note (starting and finishing it according to the period of the piece).
I prefer it this way rather than the perfectly measured trill which in the worst cases can sound like a pneumatic drill when executed by players with no regard for musicality.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-04-30 15:23
It depends on the style of music you're playing. Mozart trills can sometimes start on the note above the written one, and end with grace notes. These I start slow, after a tenuto on the upper note, and speed up. Occasionally I add another "tenuto" on the main note right before the graces, but this, as does the rest, depends on the rhythm and situation.
A trill in a contemporary piece I would probably play more "robotically."
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-04-30 16:11
Trills are apparently ignored by many players in all media. In order to render them correctly , a thorough study of music history is really necessary, as they differ from style to style and throughout the passage of time.
The only problem with that is after,or during the study, you keep hearing the mistakes that many players make from the historical view, and the funny thing is that the trills sound so much better when they are played correctly.
As a young man, I could have cared less about trills, though I hope that I didn't play them like they were Black and Decker , but after studying and getting into the ways that these folks executed, my playing improved tremendously, and the trills became easier.
for what its worth.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-04-30 16:15
Katrina wrote:
>> It depends on the style of music you're playing. Mozart trills can sometimes start on the note above the written one, and end with grace notes. These I start slow, after a tenuto on the upper note, and speed up.>>
As you say, it depends on context. Actually, Leopold Mozart said that trills should always start on the upper note, and it's instructive to consider why. (Yes, there is a reason -- compare what Nitai said in another thread about a performer's need to UNDERSTAND THE REASONS why music is written in a particular way:-)
Coming to terms with a past style is often thought to involve considerable study and scholarship. But I think it's very often possible to take a more practical approach in which we can see that a stylistic rule is just a description of something that obviously 'works' in the best music of the time.
The seemingly isolated rule about trills starting on the upper note is nothing more than common sense -- once we observe that in classical music the first note of a trill begun in this way always functions as an appoggiatura (because of the way in which classical composers habitually harmonise trills). Beginning on the upper note therefore provides a player with the opportunity to use to good effect the variety of degree of perceived dissonance, nuance and lengthening that is offered by appoggiaturas -- including, if required, the opportunity to make the appoggiatura so brief as to be imperceptible. So we can see that the reason the rule evolved is just that, at that time, it was a description of the most musically productive way of approaching a trill.
Putting it another way: when the rule is translated from the language of rules into the language of good practice in a classical context, it becomes obvious.
If you still don't find it obvious, that may be because you don't fully understand appoggiaturas.
An appoggiatura is a note that lies outside the harmony and then resolves into it. Therefore, it is a structure that already speaks of the relationship between 'not belonging' and 'belonging', surely one of the most powerful springs of human emotion; and a sensitive player will understand that the challenge of reproducing it may therefore call for a choice from within a quite wide variety of nuance. The Italian instruction to 'lean' on the note may need be done in any one of many ways: lovingly, gently, dramatically, defiantly etc; and be achieved by modulating either dynamic, tone-colour or both, depending on the context in which it occurs. Moreover, this choice may both depend on and have consequences for how the player shows other structures, such as the phrases that precede and follow the appoggiatura (see Phrasing in Contention:
http://www.woodwind.org/klarinet/Study/Phrasing.htm)
Using highly 'shaped' phrases and appoggiaturas allows the music to 'bounce' more, and thus be more lively and good-humoured -- or alternatively, turbulent and dramatic, again depending on context. 'Flatter' phrase shapes and appoggiaturas tend more towards sostenuto, which is often a marker of deeper emotion. As the mood of a piece of music changes, signalled either explicitly by the composer's markings or implicitly (by their use of harmony, say) we very often need to make a corresponding change, either sudden or progressive, between different ways of playing a sequence of appoggiaturas.
So there is no unequivocal thing that an appoggiatura means -- they're not all the same! Encountering an appoggiatura is always to encounter the question of how it should be played. Again, sometimes the answer is that it isn't expressive; but that is an important decision too.
And the same, to a lesser extent, for trills.
Tony
Post Edited (2007-04-30 17:53)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-30 16:41
In Baroque playing (on oboe) I do tend to hold accented apoggiaturas for around half the note value they're tied onto - especially in adagios where it can prolong the sense of resolution, and with trills I start them with a slight pause on the upper note before starting the trill.
Though in Classical I feel there's more of a sense of perfection in this era, so the trills are almost as Baroque, though executed in a more tidy manner (and usually end with a turn) - not necessarily perfectly measured out, but cleaned up more than in comparison to Baroque. Starting the trill on either the upper or lower note depending on how you feel it should be.
As for Romantic, I feel the accented appoggiatura has really made this era what it is. And I'd start the trills on the written note, again starting with a slight pause then beginning the trill slowly and building up speed and end them with a turn if that's written in, or ending the trilled note if it's at the end of the phrase by fading out - not coming to the end of the beat and stopping dead.
But it all depends on what sounds right for any given piece, but I feel the slight pause to begin with then starting the trill slow and speeding up seems to fit most periods - even in dance band playing.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-04-30 16:44
I have done a pause on the note, eighth note upper neighbor and then the pneumatic drill for many a year. I tend more to just the pneumatic drill of late and even prefer starting ON the note in Mozart much to the shagrin of my associates who find that "uncouth."
........Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-04-30 17:03
I play a lot of recorder, partly because this lets me perform pre-classical music. The Germanic treatises -- Quantz, Leopold Mozart, CPE Bach -- unanimously say to begin on the upper note, on the beat. They also say that the appoggiatura should take half the length of the note before the trill begins. It took a while to get used to it, but then it doesn't sound right unless I lengthen the appoggiatura at least a little.
By the time of, say Schubert, the trills begin on the lower note.
The important note in a trill is the note you're trilling from -- the lower one.
On a string instrument, the lower note sounds whenever the trilling finger is not on the string. The upper note sounds only when the finger is down, and immediately goes back to the lower note while the finger is making the rest of its motion.
On a wind instrument, it's the opposite. The lower note plays, then the finger rises, and all the time the finger is moving up and back down, the upper note is sounding. This unbalances the trill, giving too much of the upper note. Wind players must learn to keep the finger down most of the time during a trill. On piano and harpsichord, the note lengths are equal, but good players hold the lower note longer.
This is something you hear all the time once it's called to your attention.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-04-30 17:48
Ken Shaw wrote:
>>I play a lot of recorder, partly because this lets me perform pre-classical music. The Germanic treatises -- Quantz, Leopold Mozart, CPE Bach -- unanimously say to begin on the upper note, on the beat. They also say that the appoggiatura should take half the length of the note before the trill begins. It took a while to get used to it, but then it doesn't sound right unless I lengthen the appoggiatura at least a little.>>
In most cases, certainly -- especially when you're used to hearing it that way. But there is still a great variety of nuance possible, as I said above, that you want to be able to take advantage of, especially in classical and later music. The fact that you have two notes to play with (:-) gives you greater scope. That you can MODULATE a gesture like an appoggiatura, by changing length, dynamic and tone colour, is one of its great strengths as an expressive device.
Those treatises, like the 'treatises' of today, weren't written for the great player-improvisers of the time, but rather for their students, who required rather more direct and unequivocal guidance -- as you show you appreciate by not always following the letter of the 'half the length of the note' instruction.
>> The important note in a trill is the note you're trilling from -- the lower one.>>
Again, in most cases, I agree. But I'd rather think of it in another way, that allows me a greater variety of trills. I don't say that I've always availed myself of it, but I often conceive of trills as being either 'on coming off' or 'off going on -- I talked about that in:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2000/02/000399.txt
The bit of that post to do with trills includes your idea, certainly; but further allows you to produce, say, an ANGRY trill, or at least, a more dramatic trill if you want, because you can modulate the degree of dissonance with the harmony by including more or less of the upper note.
Tony
Post Edited (2007-04-30 18:31)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-04-30 17:59
What a fine, educational discussion, TKS to all ! The indices to Brymer and Lawson, didn't specify a "discussing location", perhaps Al Rice does in his "Classical Period". My OLD Klose, C F Edition, "Newly Rev. and Enl. by C L Staats [1898]" has some 10 pages of trill fingerings, with notations which may possibly answer Chris' questions. I recall a trill lecture by an orchestral conductor specifying the trill-down, most of our "modern" trills seem to be indicated as triill-up. I do realise that "I'm in over my haid". Help, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-04-30 19:25
I suppose the others who've added on to my minimal and sleep-deprived post have clarified what I meant to say.
I would also beg to offer that there may be different types of trills in even the same work. In the Mozart concerto, I would suggest, timidly in the face of such genius as has also posted here, that depending on the approach to the trill, you might even start on the note in one phrase and on the appoggiature in another. (NB: I do not have the score in front of me and have not thoroughly studied the piece; I'm just thinking here.)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-04-30 19:37
Katrina wrote:
>>I would also beg to offer that there may be different types of trills in even the same work.>>
Yes, that's what I mean by 'modulation'. I didn't mean changing key, which is the usual use of the word in music. I meant that you can change how you do a trill, 'modulate' how you do a trill, to expressive effect. An accent is another musical structure you can 'modulate' -- This accent is more gentle than THAT one, which is more gentle than THIS FINAL ONE!
Notice that 'always starting on the upper note' becomes essentially indistinguishable from starting on the lower note if the appoggiatura is very short -- but you can still have a greater proportion of either upper or lower note in the trill, however you do the appoggiatura.
Tony
Post Edited (2007-04-30 19:40)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-05-01 08:44
One thing I do is towards the end of the trill, I make sure to hold out note that has the trill written so to 'remind' people what note is being trilled. Yes, the duration/speed of the trill depends on the music, and how long the note is that is being trilled (meaning I would trill differently depending on whether it's a half-note, whole note, sixteenth note, etc.), but I do try to 'end' the trill just before the next note is played. So the trill doesn't run directly into the next note (unless I think the piece SHOULD sound like that, but rarely).
And sometimes I think it's a nice effect to start the trill slowly, speed up to pneumatic drill, then slow it back down before resolving or ending it. Much as you would crescendo/decrescendo a note with a trill, I would match the speed of the trill with the phrasing of that note.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-05-01 08:55
Just a small diversion on accented appoggiaturas here - imagine what is lost if they were never used.
Think of the horn theme early on in the 2nd mvmt. of Tchaikovsky's 5th - without the accented appoggiaturas it just wouldn't have the same impact. Same with the oboe theme that follows - the accented appoggiatura has made this work what it is.
And this is just one of countless examples.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-05-01 08:57
sfalexi wrote:
> And sometimes I think it's a nice effect to start the trill
> slowly, speed up to pneumatic drill, then slow it back down
> before resolving or ending it. Much as you would
> crescendo/decrescendo a note with a trill, I would match the
> speed of the trill with the phrasing of that note.
ACK. Especially when it's a really really long trill (whole note) that sits between a series of short (eights) notes. Adds some kind of rubato without actually slowing down or speeding up. Of course it also depends on the other voices.
But it's more of a gut feeling. I might as well be wrong.
--
Ben
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-05-01 15:43
A thought:
Many of the contributors to this thread report having a "rule" about how to execute a trill.
It might be worth customizing those rules to each individual trill encountered.
I've just gone over all the trills in the Mozart Concerto 2nd movement with my teacher, and we conclude that starting on the written note or playing the appoggiatura "works". Complexities in acceleration, duration of on/off the base note, termination flourishes, all need to be explored in the context of the performance.
For my part, the subtleties implied by the harmonic progression are a new and shocking dimension of the music. I'm playing too much alone in my practice room and not enough in ensembles!
Bob Phillips
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-05-01 20:29
Quote:
Many of the contributors to this thread report having a "rule" about how to execute a trill.
It might be worth customizing those rules to each individual trill encountered. Precisely. I've played trills with the apagiotorra (excuse the spelling . . . pretty much theoryless background and too tired to search and correct), but mostly in the circumstances where the trill is approached from a note above it and resolves down (mozart 2nd movement has an example). If the note is approached from below and resolves up, I would start right on the note and trill up cause I feel that would keep that continuous 'upward' motion. And the mood of the piece I take into account when trilling. I wouldn't take a relaxing, slow piece like the second of mozart and trill as quickly as possible. I'd keep it a little slower, maybe speed up a bit, but still not trill furiously. I'd make it sound more like 32nd notes at it's fastest. But maybe at the end of the Weber Concertino I might do a much faster trill as the mood is more aggressive.
Play around and make it sound good and fit the context of the piece. Whatever your interpration of 'sounding good and fitting the context' might be.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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