 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: chinaboy61
Date: 2007-04-22 22:52
I wanna get metal tenons installed on my clarinet and have a small chip in the wood repaired. Anyone know a good technician...A SAFE one that won't damage my clarinet"?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-04-22 23:22
I assume you mean the bands and not sockets.
In either case, Tomoji Hirakata in NYC can do it, I think. He is quite busy and you have to make an appointment in advance, but he's good.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-04-23 00:25
Small chips on a tenon can be repaired. A good technician using proper technique and materials can make this type of repair absolutely undetectable. Filling the chip with supper glue, epoxy or shellac might be a good idea but this is NOT what I'm taking about.
For instance metal tenon caps on the R13 will drastically reduce the resale value of your clarinet. After market metal cap is usually installed on a shattered/badly-damaged tenon. IMO if your clarinet came from the factory without a metal tenon cap it's better to keep it that way.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: b.roke
Date: 2007-04-23 07:26
Vytas said - Filling the chip with supper glue, epoxy or shellac might be a good idea but this is NOT what I'm taking about
Vytas, please tell me what you are talking about.
thanks
steadfastness stands higher than any success
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-23 09:58
Provided the metal tenon rings are well made and fitted, I can't see how this can lower the value of a clarinet as having them fitted is more beneficial than not having them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-04-23 10:43)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-04-23 12:42
Vytas, I too am curious as to what exactly you are referring to. This forum is a place where sharing is a way of life.
Superglue and grenadilla chips/powder is a VERY successful and pretty standard way of doing this today.
Chris, I too wonder why good caps would devalue a clarinet. Most quality oboes have them, and some top clarinet makers often incorporate them.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-23 12:54
"Superglue and grenadilla chips/powder is a VERY successful and pretty standard way of doing this today."
And that's what is usually done - I can't see a better or more successful way of repairing tenon chips.
Have a look at this, all those of you with little faith in superglue:
http://www.krausmusic.com/adhesive/miscglue.htm#cyano
My recent addition (Selmer Series 9 full Boehm) has a split tenon ring at the top - I'm wondering if it's worth replacing as it's tight (and it's one of those that I've only seen Selmer do that goes into the bore as well), or best left as is and the split filled to stop water getting in.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-04-23 13:40
Gordon wrote:
> Most quality oboes have them, and some top clarinet makers often
> incorporate them.
Even my student Amati has them. (and the better one even on the bell side tenon).
They also serve against swelling caused by spit water, right?
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-23 14:23
"They also serve against swelling caused by spit water, right?"
Yes indeedy! Funny that Amati put them on all their wooden clarinets as standard, though some respected makers only reserve them for their top line instruments (as well as an OPTIONAL LH Ab/Eb lever!)
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-04-23 16:05
I think the metal tenon cap just adds a level of uncertainty to a used purchase. The buyer (if using one of those unmentionably auction sites) may not know how well the tenon cap was installed, or what is lurking underneath (bad fix, etc).
My K/L Selmer i bought for "parts" had a very poorly fitted tenon cap, and they didn't even fully fix the issue underneath !! just covered it up.
plus, it seems, changing something from "original" seems to devalue an instrument.
But if it's yours, and you want to keep it / fix it, I don't see any problem with them.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CEC
Date: 2007-04-23 17:39
My first teacher disliked metal tenon caps. When discussing instruments, he always recommended the R-13 over the Prestige for this reason (among others). He felt that the metal caps made the instrument less resonant and "restricted" tonally. Also, he said that becuase metal loses heat more efficiently than wood, instruments that used metal caps were more difficult to keep in tune in air conditioned venues.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-04-23 17:46
And where, please, would the metal's heat dissipate?
I've rarely read such a BS from a teacher...
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CEC
Date: 2007-04-23 18:00
I would imagine into the air column inside the bore.
Perhaps he was incorrect. However, he taught for more than fifty years, was a wonderful pedagogue, a marvelous player and was like a father to me. To say that I'm angered by your presumptuous, snide remark is an understatement.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-04-23 18:39
I was commenting on the comment, not on the person. Sorry if I upset you, it wasn't meant that way.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CEC
Date: 2007-04-23 19:02
Ben,
Thanks for that.
I'm not sure why his comment is controversial. When doing any kind of doubling work, the horn left fallow will cool off and go flat. Metal instruments certainly get cold faster than wooden ones (though I suppose the thin wall construction of saxes, flutes, etc. is an additional factor). It seems reasonable to me that metal tenons will cool faster than the wooden elements of the bore (particlurly in a cool environment). It's always been my understanding that materials such as metal and plastic are more affected in a dimensional sense by temperature than wood. At the very least, if the metal tenons do get cooler quicker than the wood, but no dimensional changes occur, the cool metal will still cool the airstream at least temporarily as it passes by (just as a bowl of ice cubes cool air passing over it from a fan). I'd think that would affect pitch somewhat, but I admit, I could be incorrect.
Chris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-23 19:18
Not only would metal cool quicker, it's also a good conductor of heat so it will also warm up quicker than wood.
But this half-baked theory and metal tenon rings will have NO effect on the tuning of a clarinet - if they're hot or cold - due to their thickness.
Did your first teacher believe everything he heard? Sounds like he needs to get out more.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-04-23 19:21
Chris,
I too thought about it some more. The metal will conduct temperature changes better than wood, that's for sure. But it will not only transport the heat from between socket and tenon faster into the bore, it will also transport the heat from the bore into between the tenon and the socket.
All in all we might experience some kind of delay (damping) where the metal liner has a different temperature than the ambient wood, but I expect this to be in the magnitude of some seconds.
It certainly is an interesting thought, but I think the mass of a tenon liner is negligible compared to the mass of the wood with which it is in contact. Plus, as Chris P states, why do the upper-end clarinets sport such a contraption while the cheaper ones (who'd benefit from protection against sloppy care and rough treatment) commonly don't?
Which raises another interesting question, maybe one of the friends in here can comment on that - did anyone with a "silver throat" Pruefer (or a Martin Bros. "LaMonte") experience funny pitch aberrations? After all, these beasts have their whole upper joint lined with metal.
(I frankly admit I sometimes get ever so slightly grumpy when I come across things that are filed in my "superstition" drawer. And sometimes I just hit "post" too early. <sigh>)
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-23 19:24
... and there are plenty of wooden flutes and piccolos with lined headjoints and metal tenons - but even metal flutes play sharp.
As my clarinet teacher said, "flutes are sharp, flutes are ALWAYS sharp."
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rsholmes
Date: 2007-04-23 19:25
Since the tenon rings are in close contact with the wood, and both are in contact with the air in the bore, I would expect all three to stay at about the same temperature -- that is, the metal rings, the air in the bore, and the layer of wood closest to the bore. The ice cube analogy isn't completely apt because the metal isn't cold. Metal feels cold to the touch because it conducts your body heat away more efficiently than wood does. To the extent that the wood and metal and bore air are all the same temperature, the metal will not cool anything off.
But of course an instrument in a cool room is warm on the inside and cool on the outside, and the bore does cool off. In a metal instrument (especially a single-wall one), the metal will conduct the heat from the bore to the room more efficiently than wood would -- so all other things being equal the bore on the metal instrument cools down faster (and it's the temperature of the bore, I think, that's most important here).
In the case of tenon rings, first of all the amount of metal involved is much smaller, and second, the metal isn't exposed directly to the room air -- heat still has to go through a (thinner) wood layer. In principle, yes, the bore would cool more quickly than in an otherwise identical instrument without metal tenon rings. In practice I'm guessing the difference would be minuscule, and that most of the cooling would take place at the bell and the tone holes anyway. But that's only a guess. Certainly it'd still cool more slowly than, say, a sax.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CEC
Date: 2007-04-23 20:13
Excellent points all. Thanks for all the thoughtful straightnening out!
Chris P - My teacher was hardly a gullible fellow. In fact, he was extremely conservative when it came to spending his student's money. For instance, he believed that the "premium grenadilla" used in the prestige line was worth neither the cash nor the hassle (he felt that the "better" wood added, if anything, to fatigue and tension due to it's slightly greater weight). He also felt that the metal tenons offset any tonal improvements wrought by the premium wood (for the same reason many experience that ringless barrels resonate better, I'd imagine). And, yes, he did have experience playing on Prestiges.
Perhaps he did need to get out more, but spent too much time listening, practicing, conducting, researching 19th century lit (he's cited in Grove's) and looking after his students
"flutes are sharp, flutes are ALWAYS sharp."
Then that points to design rather than materials, yes? (Not being sarcastic)
Ben - Points well taken, though I'd imagine manufacturers sometimes look for ways to add expense to their upper crust instruments (this is the main reason my teacher took a dim view of the Prestige, I think - it struck me that he viewed the additional features as largely frivolous and a waste of $$$ better spent elsewhere - he also disliked the extra keywork, though he did like the double-skinned pads). It's certainly unfair to say that metal tenons fall into that category though, given that they do have practical advantages.
(and thanks again - I've certainly been guilty of the same! Sorry I became defensive.)
rsholmes - Very cogent and appreciated.
Chris
Post Edited (2007-04-23 21:27)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-23 21:25
"though he did like the double-skinned pads"
These have always been standard features on all clarinets fitted with skin pads (as all skin pads have double layers of skin), from the cheapest and nastiest Chinese CSOs to the most expensive models produced.
And if socket rings contribute to or dampen natural vibrations remains to be seen - all clarinets have tenons and sockets, and all tenons have a cork seal.
Not an ideal solution in the perfect world (as the perfect clarinet would be made from a single piece of wood with no joints at all and with an integral mouthpiece), but it's a fact of life we all have to live with, for economy's sake and for our benefit.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CEC
Date: 2007-04-23 21:38
Chris,
"though he did like the double-skinned pads"
At the time I studied with him (1983-85), the double-skinned pads (the Prestige brochure listed them as "Golden" and/or "Double Bladder" pads) were definitely touted as an upgrade from the plain-jane R-13. I must concede that all pro Buffets at the time may have indeed featured double skinned pads and that this was simply "Marketing Speak". I simply do not know if this was the case at the time.
"And if socket rings contribute to or dampen natural vibrations remains to be seen"
Given. I'm simply passing on *his* impressions.
Post Edited (2007-04-23 23:06)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-04-24 00:05
For what it's worth, I too regard the teacher's notion of temperature instability on account of tenon caps as BS. (Note that I was not commenting on the guy himself, just the notion.)
Yes, theoretically it makes a difference, but so does the moth flapping its wings on the other side of the room.
Most of the heat loss from the bore is by convection, with the warm air rising and escaping through tone holes and past the reed while the clarinet is not being played. Did the teacher tell you to keep all those tone holes closed when not being played? Did he tell you to do resonance fingerings so that more holes were closed more of the time? Did he tell you to avoid clarinets with tenon SOCKET rings, metal posts, and any other metal parts embedded into the timber, hence more rapidly draining warmth from it?
Any notion has to stand the test of science-based, common sense relevance, and surely a worthy teacher should apply this sort of test before passing such notions on to all-believing students. (Note I am not trying to imply that any teacher is expected to be perfect in every way. I just have a bee in my bonnet about the constant BS that comes from even reputable teachers.)
A local flute teacher some years ago got all his students to buy from him, long flute cases so that they did not need to disassemble their flutes. Disassembly damaged the beneficial vibrations that took up residence in the metal or timber! Imagine how a clarinet is damaged when it has FOUR junctions that are taken apart.
Turn your clarinet into a Strad by gluing the tenons into their sockets!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-04-24 03:28
My full Boehm Buffet has a metal tenon cap at the center joint. Its there, I think because the articulated G# tone hole vents through the tenon, and Buffet thought it a good idea to reinforce the tenon.
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-24 09:00
Same with a 1938 Buffet I worked on with an articulated G# - it has a tenon ring on the middle tenon only (and a lined socket). I did fit a metal tenon ring to the top tenon as the wood had been rounded off - I assume the tenon was 'fitted' a long while back.
Selmer and Yamaha (on the few full Boehms Yamaha have made) have the lined middle socket (as on oboes) though this will cause the wood to split between the C#/G# and C/G toneholes when the wood shrinks, though no metal tenon ring.
However, my Leblanc LL full Boehm has an unlined middle socket and no metal tenon ring - so each manufacturer has their own idea of what's best, or what they feel is necessary.
In all cases, the effect of this has no effect on the tuning or playability of the clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2007-04-24 16:37
I'm curious - how much does it cost to add tenon rings to a clarinet (or how much time does it take)?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-24 17:23
It depends if you can get tenon ring 'blanks' the correct size (or near enough) or if they have to be made from scratch.
They can be made by being stamped from sheet metal, fitted to the tenon by glueing and burnishing down (the wood has to be turned down and shortened leaving a raised ring with a recess below it so the end of the ring can be burnished down into it to hold the ring in place) and the outside diameter turned to the correct size.
Or turned from a solid bar to the right dimensions and fitted to the tenon as above, and checked with the socket to be sure it's not too tight or loose.
Another way is like socket rings - having a thick metal ring fitted to the tenons - the top ring of the tenon is turned down to a narrower diameter leaving a step (so the narrower diameter part is still the original length), and the ring fitted tightly and machined flush with the wood at the top, so there's wood still visible at the end (and looks like those found on older Buffet and current Leblanc tenon rings - though these are made from sheet metal).
Another way with sheet metal (if you can't stamp it out or don't have solid bar the right diameter) is to make the tenon ring and hard solder it to join the ends, and then hard solder it to another piece of sheet metal to make a mortar bord shape, cut off the excess from the end so it's circular, fit to the tenon and turn it down to the right dimensions.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-04-24 17:30)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-04-25 07:17
Another option is to make a ring, a few mm too wide, from sheet metal (lapped and silver-soldered), and simply form/burnish the excess width over the edges of that timber lip as a sort of sealer under the burnished part where it springs back perhaps 0.1 mm.
I've done it many times. About 1/2 hour, whatever that costs.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-25 16:56
And is that 30 mins just to make the tenon ring, or 30 mins to make and fit it, or 30 mins from getting the clarinet out of it's case to having it all fitted and finished?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-04-25 23:16
About 1/2 hour bench time from start, to making the ring and fitting it to the tenon. (This excludes the time waiting for the glue to cure). The process is for the purpose of solving the problem of a wobbling (usually centre) tenon, but also can follow up any tenon restoration, for a more robust result, or where diameter needs to be increased.
That is ONE ring, usually for the open end of the tenon. Sometimes a ring is needed at the other end too. Another 1/2 hour.
It does not include filling of chips in the timber, or gluing splits in the timber, or turning the timber from oval to round, or turning a worn timber lip from something like conical to round. However these operations do not add a lot of time to the procedure. It does not include replacing the tenon cork.
1. Measure the diameter of the two lips of the tenon, and the diameter of the receiver.
2. Select an appropriate thickness of sterling silver sheet. (I have these in stock. I have pre-rolled small sheets to a range of suitable thicknesses.) Make sure there is space between the end of the tenon and the bottom of the socket to accommodate this thickness.
3. Mark and cut a strip of silver to appropriate width, on a guillotine.
4. Anneal strip.
5. Cut to length, allowing for a short lap. Good judgement required so that ring is not loose.
6. File bevels on each end.
7. Silver-solder bevelled ends to make a ring.
8. Use dental gear to trim away any excess silver-solder.
9. Check that ring is a firm fit on tenon lip. If too tight to get on, stretch the ring.
10. Use dental gear to remove tarnish form, and slightly rough-up the inside of the ring.
11. Mix up a little epoxy with black pigment powder, and apply to involved surfaces.
12. Press ring firmly over lip and position carefully.
13. Use burnishing tool to form the silver over the plane surfaces of the lip. (Usually 1 - 2.5 mm)
14. When glue is set, trim any unevenness of the edges of the ring, and use a VERY fine linisher sander to get outer diameter to fit the receiver snugly.
15. Buff the ring.
16. Clean up.
Each operation takes 1/2 to 3 minutes. Note that a lot of experience has made this a quick and reliable operation for me. It would take a lot longer, with probably several attempts, for a first time.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
