 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2007-04-18 17:30
MarksMusic.com displays a selection for Morre reeds for sale but their E-mail address doesn't respond.
Does anyone know if they sell anything online.? I wouldn't mind trying a box of Morres if I could get them.
Thanks all.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: martind
Date: 2007-04-18 19:33
I believe Morre reeds are not being manufactued anymore. It has been sometime since I last made a purchase. Also, Marks Music may be out of business. Good luck with your search.
Martin
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-04-18 20:06
From what others have written before, the Morre reeds which Marks Music is still selling for almost $50/box (up from about $35/ box a few years ago) are not the same as those from the mid 1960's to early 1970's.
The infamous #2 1/2 German Cut with a 12.5 tip width (as favored by Marcellus) are long gone by now and any Morre's which still remain have been picked over and are not even close to resembling the qualiy which we who were fortunate enough to use them, fondly remember ...GBK
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-04-18 21:20
I got a few #2-1/2 Morre Bb clarinet reeds stuck in a clarinet case 'won' off That Auction Site last year, and I'd guess they were the most recent version because they STUNK. They were so soft I had to clip more than 1/8" off the tip to play them at all, and after fooling with them for a while I realized it was a waste of time and so discarded them. I assume the originals were far superior.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-04-18 23:27
Isn't the sole purpose of the vandoren V12 reeds to copy the cut of the morre reeds when morre destroyed his equipment so that his reeds could never be copied again?
talk about covering tracks....
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-04-19 03:01
C2thew said:
"Isn't the sole purpose of the vandoren V12 reeds to copy the cut of the morre reeds..."
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That may have been their intention but the result is, as usual, uniquely Vandoren. The Vandoren family never copies *exactly* what has been successful in the past. Their philosophy is to make their products "better" than the original - their reasoning being that otherwise they would simply be making copies and not be viewed as uniquely Vandoren.
I've found that they have made a somewhat close copy of that *style* of reed - a hybrid of the old French and old German reed - that has an excellent consistency out of the box, especially in the new Flow Pack version. I play them exclusively myself because they are the closest thing to the old Morre that I can find (and I'm not a Vandoren artist).
Do they help impart the depth, tonal weight, shape, and depth of articulated sound of the old Morre that Marcellus, Karl Marks, and Viennese maker Karl Firstl collaborated to make? The Morre reed that was an integral part of the Moennig Buffet R13/Moennig hand made barrel/Kaspar 11 or 13 (Chicago or Cicero)/Bonade inverted ligature/Morre reed part of the sound?
Not even close.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
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Author: doublej
Date: 2007-04-19 14:11
While the Morre reeds that marks sells may no be the best ever made, they still have unique measurements. Upon balancing and measuring them they have provided me with a great model for making my own reeds.
jeff
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2007-04-19 15:25
I found a seller on e-bay yesterday that had 7 boxes of Morre reeds up for auction. There was only 9 minutes left and by the time I rummaged up my ebay ID etc. they were gone...$30.01 a box. The boxes looked antique enough to be the originals. Only the buyers know now...I hope they weren't disappointed.
Marks Music has two apparently active web sites online. I impulsively sent them $39.99 via PayPal for a box. Since then I'm unable to contact Marks Music at all. My email messages either time out, or there's no response at all. I wonder who got my $39.99?
Clarinet Redux
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-04-19 15:43
"I wonder who got my $39.99?"
thanks for lunch!
kidding =)
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2007-04-19 17:57
I believe the Morre reed, when it was good, was perhaps the best commercially available reed ever. As Greg so juicily describes their “depth, tonal weight, shape, and depth of articulated sound,” is something that is to be admired.
I feel that the Morre cane was the main source of the above attributes. The additional time that was invested to make their designs correspond to their wonderful cane was more than icing on the cake, but to me, less important than the material itself. Sometimes a good reed would “pop” right out of the box, but in my opinion, even the famed Morre frequently benefited from adjustment. I remember in Marcellus’ studio, a photo of him sitting at his reed-covered desk, (with a look of “great-reed-frustration”) next to an ash tray overflowing with cigarette butts. It was a wonderful snapshot representing the trials and tribulations the search for sublime clarinetistry could bring to the fold. (As I understand it, the photo was actually staged, but I am sure it expressed many truths nonetheless).
Marcellus, used Morre reeds but he adjusted them, and had magnificent results. Sure, he played them out of the box from time to time (when their Lolipoptitude was sufficient) but he worked on reeds too. Let us not underestimate the merits of reed-work. I feel that it is a fundamental part of playing the clarinet…much like double reed players learn to make reeds, clarinetists should learn how to adjust reeds, or better yet, make their own.
Morre was a wonderful source of commercial reeds because they had GREAT cane, and they were flexible enough and good enough with their manufacturing process to adapt their designs to their cane. They didn’t always succeed, but when they did, something special was the result.
Vandoren on the other hand uses cane with very different playing attributes. They do not make a copy of the Morre nor should they. They have determined what is best for their cane and are very successful in so doing. Could they be improved by hand? Yes. If Vandoren copied the design of the Morre, their reeds may be improved, but I doubt they would achieve the magic that Morre is known for. Why, because their cane is different.
I like Vandoren cane. If I could buy it in tube form, I would be thrilled. I think it is far better than most of the tube cane I have received in recent years and this is why I recommend Vandoren reeds. Their cane is very good. If I had cane that is as good as what Morre reeds were made from, I would probably make reeds that have a very different shape than what I currently make, because the nature of their cane is so different. It was softer, yet it had a wonderful clear, vibrant and deep resonance.
So the quest continues.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-04-19 22:37
I got a box from one auction for about $27, so close enough to a box of Rue Lepic to warrant the once-in-a-lifetime trial.
The strength was #2-1/2 which translates to #4 VD or so
They appear very old, brownish or reddish.
In shape, they resemble the Gonzalez FOF cut, but perhaps not has tapered at the base. There is a lot of material in the mid vamp.
I have thus far tested/played about 6 of them. Of these, right out of the box, 2 played well....one being very good. Of the four others that I tried, 2 were fair, and 2 unplayable.
This sample is "not statistically significant."
They broke in slowly, like Gonzalez. The best one lasted a long time, and is still in my rotation.
I expected to see a nice, evenly dispersed, pattern of "veins" but instead they were somewhat random. The balance between sides was ok.
Were they any better than the best VD? No.
I have 4 untried ones remaining. Eventually I will sample them, but for now I am sticking with VD blue box or v-12.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-04-19 23:24
If you want to reach Marks Music, a relatively small store that I have always found responsive, try calling them:
(800) 330-6510
(724) 347-7629
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-04-19 23:42
The reeds in the staged photo taken for the old clarinet magazine is from Marcellus' first years (the early to mid 50's) in Cleveland before Morres were in the picture - in this case, literally. They were all Vandorens.
But then again this was at a time when he was struggling to find his own sound and equipment - a process that was bound to lead to frustration. One can sense and hear this in the earlier recordings. He told me that he didn't even feel that he really started to "get it together" in the orchestra until the late 50's. I don't know that the staged picture was so much about the quality of the Vandoren cane as it was Marcellus trying to present a sympathetic image to fellow readers of The Clarinet magazine.
One has to keep in mind that Morre reeds went downhill very fast in the years after 1973, the year Marcellus had to resign from the orchestra for health reasons. There was no more collaboration with the parties that were constantly keeping the maker (Firstl) on his toes.
After that time, the modifications in cut (perhaps to fit the cane, but it can be plausibly argued that the cane was chosen to fit the *existing* cut, no one knows for sure), went unsupervised and were confusing to manufacturer Karl Firstl. That is why he finally gave up in frustration about a decade later. He was receiving mixed advice or confusing advice from several different and varying sources - none of them from the caliber of a Marcellus.
Personally, I had been given and have acquired older vintages of Morres from the circa 1960 - 1973 era, most of which I still have in my possession. The evolution of the reed in both shape and cut is astonishing to see and hear. The one constant seems to be the density of the cane as measured by certain pressure techniques. Density doesn't always translate to quality so again, I know of no way that any objective claims can be made that the quality of the cane would necessarily supersede the importance of the design or cut. I would call that kind of relationship a symbiotic, 50/50 one. But we seem to have had that type of discussion on many occasions here.
BTW, many ENTIRE shipments - they seemed to come every few months or so - were useless and no amount of work on them would produce results. This included all vintages of the Morre reed. Carl Jr. would set aside the very best shipments for his most valued customers, doling them out as he felt he could spare them. He gave his best customers 20 - 30 boxes of 12 and the rest, 2 - 6 boxes if they were lucky. Shipment #47 stands out as a highlight.
One of the wonderful things that Marcellus instilled in his students was the need to keep up on reed work - that the quality of one's playing was reflected and could directly be traced to the quality of their reed work. He taught some simple rules of carpentry that would bring many of the reeds to life. Many of those rules are universal in nature and many of them were directly related to the Morre in particular - the techniques for Morre's being translatable to the V12 reed of today.
If you read my prior postings about Morre reeds and their history, including how they evolved from the early 60's to 1973, a common theme is that the design AND the exact sources of cane seemed to interchange to fit the highest standards that were being demanded by Marcellus and Carl Marks Jr. (Marcellus' first student in Cleveland and then long time friend after Marks became a businessman because of asthma problems).
Morres were manufactured just outside Vienna and were completely dismissed in the world of European clarinetistry as junk. It wasn't until Marcellus and Marks understood the opportunity to shape the design and create a market for Marcellus' students (and then everyone else in the US) that Firstl even had a serious business to run.
BTW, one interesting thing that my colleague, Larry Combs told me while I was then a student during those wonderful, golden years at Northwestern was that he had been given some Morre basset horn reeds by the then CSO bass clarinetist George Weber which he shaped into soprano clarinet reeds. To this day he repeats the story that the result was some of the best reeds he could ever remember playing.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
PS. One can visit the Marks Music website and view numerous pictures at several different links showing Marcellus, Bonade, Marks and another with a thumbnail sketch of the history of Marks Music and Morre reeds.
Post Edited (2007-04-20 00:32)
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2007-04-20 15:55
Yes one can visit the Website but emails are returned address unknown etc.
Their website is apparantly an empty front!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: energia eolica
Date: 2007-04-20 22:59
It may be true that nothing today measures up and is similar to the old Morres, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Clarinet playing has changed, in my opinion in a good way, and the demands are different. All this nostagia for lost products is just that: nostalgia.
Mouthpieces, reeds, and clarinets are constantly evolving. To stay rooted to the past on ideolicial grounds is to miss all the advancements that have been made. Vandoren V12s are excellent reeds that are relatively consistent and can be made to produce incredible sounds. To me, that's all that matters.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-04-21 00:28
ee wrote:
"Clarinet playing has changed, in my opinion in a good way, and the demands are different."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Looking back on my experience over the last 30 years of playing professionally, it occurs to me that drawing from the past is an entirely different thing than being stuck in the past. Certainly nostalgia for it's own sake is not an endeavor that is very productive.
While the one sentence I've quoted from your post is most certainly true, it doesn't necessarily follow that the demands of today's clarinetists wouldn't be met (or even superseded) with the best Morre reed, original Kaspar or Chedeville mouthpiece, or older vintage Buffet R13 clarinet. It's just that many of those original products have been used up - their lifetime coming to an end like everything else.
I would hope that some knowledge of the history and descriptions of first hand experience (having played these products at one time), would be of some benefit and enrichment to you and others. Everyone is most assuredly a product of their past as well as a representation of their present.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
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Author: energia eolica
Date: 2007-04-21 01:45
Greg,
I don't think we're as far apart as it might seem, and it's my fault for not elaborating further. I'll draw upon what you just said.
I absolutely believe that clarinetists today could achieve the same result with original Kaspars, older R13s, and Morres. Plenty of people still play all of those pieces of equipment, with the exception of the reed. But when I say they'd achieve the same result, that's just it. While the reed-mouthpiece combination is an incredibly important factor in production of sound, I believe that a player will achieve their desired sound no matter what they are using. I believe this because I've seen it happen many times with players through various equipment changes.
Seeing as about 35 years have passed since you reference Morres being in their prime, I find it hard to accept a comparison that imparts a concept of "depth" and "tonal weight" upon the reeds. I'm sure they responded differently, but put them in the hands of today's players and after adjustment (internally) the player's going to sound the same. It is on these grounds that I say that we run the risk of waxing too nostalgic about a product. If we try and make a comparison of our reeds today vs. our perception of reeds 35 years ago, it's too easy to remember the best of what we had.
I certainly don't mean to disqualify any of the discussion about Morres. They were considered an important part of a particular school of clarinet playing in this country and are the main reason we have V12s today. For that reason alone, it is incredibly important to know about them. I maintain, however, that we sometimes place too much emphasis on how good they supposedly were.
I will also admit that I have only played Morres of a slightly later vintage: a German cut that is extremely similar to current V12 dimensions. For this reason, I freely admit that your knowledge of the particulars of these reeds is far more intimate.
-Adam
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Author: Wes
Date: 2007-04-21 02:21
When the person selling me oboe cane died 9 months ago, I found that using other sources of cane were not really ok. Reeds were much harder to make. Recently, I found a source for that same old cane and reeds became much easier to make. Dimensions seem to be the same but the good cane was from wild plants growing in ditches or wherever as opposed to being grown on managed plantations. Who knows?
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-04-21 16:24
Wes,
What kind of cane are you getting? I've been getting good results with glotin...but I imagine there are better types out there.
Chris
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