 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2007-04-18 12:35
Just wondering if anyone has had instant or lasting problems with stage fog rolling into the band pit.
I ask this, as we are playing for a new musical which opened last night and has a dry ice machine making fog for the complete performance. I have to say that the fog is not very dense, but I feel I 'm a bit wheezy even today.
Our flautist had to remove her contact lenses, and several of us decended into (albeit minor) coughing fits. (not great if you're playing wind instruments). A keyb'd player did say she seemed v sleepy, but may have been unrelated.
I've played in bands where the occasional burst of thick stage fog appeared and no probs, but not a low level constant exposure such as this.
Can anyone (eg John Moses) expand on regulations/experiences.
Should we gently protest ?
Bob T.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-18 12:50
As it's CO2, it will cause oxygen deficiency.
You should check to see if the venue has proper ventilation in the orchestra pit - as CO2 is more dense than air it will fill a sunken pit if there's no means of escape at ground level, and as the players are in there for over 2 hours, then the CO2 levels will build up and can't be doing anyone any good.
I would say take a cigarette lighter or matches to see if the flame goes out, but neither are allowed in theatres.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-04-18 12:54)
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2007-04-18 13:50
Dry Ice, or commonly called CO2, is often used on Broadway and other NYC venues. It is, if fact, used every night at WICKED. There are strict guild-lines, established by the Union, to regulate its use. The Governmental agency, OSHA, has also established safety rules about the use of CO2 in theatrical productions, where it comes in contact with humans. You might check the rules for its use at your Local Union office, or contact OSHA directly, or online, for their rules to help you with your current problem.
As far as a "protest"...get the facts first, get Union support. Then act according to your information, and have a Union representative file a complaint.
I realize that you are in the UK, but you must have similar problems over at The West End, in their many theatrical productions. And you can find a similar Government agency to our OSHA over there.
Good luck,
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-04-18 16:11
A word or two of correction here - just wait until I get out of lunchtime mode and put my work hat back on...
OSHA (more properly the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, a sub agency of the United States Department of Labor) does not have a specialized standard for the theatrical use of carbon dioxide. Unlike the California Department of Safety and Health, which runs their own program under what is call the "state plan" provisions of the OSH Act, there are only a very few industries that have their own "special" OSHA standards, and the theater is not one of them. (California does have special standards for the film industry, but none for theatrical productions that I am aware of.)
The established standard for all industries, including the theatrical one, is (and has been, since 1971 or so) the level of 5000 parts per million (ppm) by volume of the breathing air in a given situation. This is a relatively high level, some ten times that of carbon monoxide, but that is because CO2 is only an asphixiant, not toxic in the same sense as the monoxide gas.
Common situations for excess carbon dioxide in the workplace include the kill floor in pork packing plants, and any confined space or compartment such as wine or vinegar vats and barrels. It also occurs in silos holding ensilage, food for cattle.
Poor ventilation of a "normal" workspace, such as an office, may result in very slightly elevated levels, but never high enough to trigger a violation. The main problem with CO2 is when it is confined in a container, or is allowed to accumulate in a pit (such as an orchestra pit). As pointed out, it is heavier than air (for the most part; air is composed of a large number of gasses, some of which are lighter and some of which are heavier than "normal" air).
This level present in a given area is measured in a number of different ways, the most practical of which is the so-called from their original manufacturer Drager detection tubes. Using one, it is a simple matter to see what the level is for a short term exposure.
Legal requirements are somewhat different than direct reading instrument requirements; we use different means to determine the eight hour "time weighted averages" that we base our actions upon.
While the limit of 5000 ppm is a relatively high one, it does not mean that those exposed to less cannot suffer some sort of symptoms. Headache is the most common of these, and may indicate elevated levels, but they are almost certainly nowhere near the action limit set by the standard.
(Similar problems can occur with the slightly elevated levels of carbon monoxide created by cigarette smoking. However, second hand smoke does not reach anywhere near the 50 ppm level permitted for carbon monoxide.)
By the time there is enough carbon dioxide to reach the "no flame from a lighter" level, it is already too late to be worrying about it - i.e., you will already be lying on the floor. That's why there are exposures on the kill floor at packing plants - the hogs are first knocked unconscious by the elevated levels of the gas in a stunning pit, then the worker chain them by their hind legs to a conveyor system where they are then "stuck" and allowed to bleed to death.
However, from a musician's standpoint, the "dry ice" fog is of far less hazard in nature than the "fog oil" fog. This is produced by most commercial fogging machines (such as those used by DJs in their entertainment efforts), and it consists of a finely divided "smoke" of oil droplets dispersed through the air.
While on the dance floor or theatrical floorboards this has little impact (as the stuff drops to ground level rapidly, hence its use for the effect), for the poor schlubs down in the orchestra pit it is a big problem. Current OSHA standards have no exposure limits for this material, and the process whereby we regulate "all other contaminants" not already covered by a specific threshold limit value is a very cumbersome and hard to apply.
The AFM and the stagehand's union have both dealt with the fog/smoke issue in the past, but I don't recall anything other than informal agreements that have results from same. The few times that I have been exposed to his over the years, informal complaints have resulted in extra ventilation being added (fans with long ducts) to dilute the concentrations.
Should you be exposed to either type of fog, and should it rise to the irritant level, you have the right (as an employee) to file an anonymous complaint with your local office of our agency (or of a state agency that takes our place in some states, such as California). Although it is unlikely that any established threshold limit value will be exceeded in such cases, usually such complaints prompt immediate corrective action by the employer regardless.
(My qualifications for explaining/correcting this are (when I'm working my "day job") that I've been with OSHA for over thirty years, and am a manager of our programs in the Houston South Area Office. Even more than that, I've actually been involved in a few enforcement actions with theatrical employers over the years, pretty rare in OSHA outside of NYC and California. Believe it or not, people do get killed at the opera outside of the plot of the Lloyd-Weber musical...)
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2007-04-18 17:08
Thank you all for these words of wisdom. I'll let you know in a few days how the situation progresses. In the meantime, wish us luck for the remainder of the show.
BobT
BobT
Post Edited (2007-04-18 17:10)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-18 17:15
Take an oxygen cylinder and mask with you!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2007-04-18 17:50
One thing yet to be mentioned here is that you always have the CO2 in your lungs that is being produced by your body. The air you exhale contains a substantial quantity of CO2 and an excess of CO2 in the lungs, rather than a lack of oxygen, is what causes you to feel like you need to take a breath.
The CO2 is beneficial to wind players as it helps counteract the effect on tuning that occurs due to the higher temperature of the gases being exhaled.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-18 17:57
Yeah, but you don't want to be inhaling larger quantities of CO2 than you need to be.
Is it nitrous oxide that's given to casualties in A+E and ambulances? That's pretty dense as it made my voice drop about a 4th.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2007-04-18 18:53
Nitrous oxide, also known as laughing gas, is used by dentists for tooth extractions, so maybe its also used by EMTs. Its nearly 60% heavier than air which would have a sound speed roughly 30% slower than air which can lower the pitch quite a bit, depending on the concentration.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-04-18 19:38
With CO2 being the major component of "Greenhouse Gases", For Those Interested In Atmospheric Chemistry [FTIIAC ??], I'd suggest a bit of Google Searching, via these several subjects. Some 15 copied pages of "CO2" in Wikipedia has quite satisfied my chem curiousity, and I am better educated as the result. Also a good "run-down" on Al Gore and "An Inconvenient Truth" is well worth reading. For those who "passed-by" Chemistry in H S/ Col.UNV, gas density is related to composition, air 20% O2 [16 {atomic weight}]+ 80% N2[14] and has an average "molecular weight" of about 29. CO2 [carbon is 12] is 44 [heavier than air]. Re: the several nitrogen oxides [Chris], prob. the most prevalent is NO [nitric oxide {MW 30}, the winter brown cloud over Denver et al !!{NO2, dioxide}, when oxidized by sunlight] M W about 46 about the same as CO2. Of course "thermal mixing" of these several gases tends to produce uniform composition . 'Nuff Chem?, MC/GBK, Too Much??. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-18 19:48
The more science, the better.
As science means 'truth', there's nothing to argue about, and plenty to understand.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-04-18 20:45
An interesting phenomenon that I first noted as a youngster was to allow a belch after you have drunk (consumed?) some carbonated soda, into the bore of the instrument. (It can be done without making a horrid noise, I assure you.)
You will immediately notice a flatting of the pitch, which will drop markedly for the period of time that it takes to move the CO2 through the horn. Once its gone, the pitch returns to normal
Scientific fun with a bass clarinet. The wonders of music never cease...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2007-04-19 06:11
Thanks for eveyone's input. All very interesting as usual.
Update........ severely restricted use only to the "graveyard" and "hanging" scenes.....yes you've got it ......... this show's a laugh a minute !
Anyway that solved the problem. I suspect the reduction in use was more an economic than health issue.
Bob T (Playing a very sinister bass cl this week as you can imagine)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-04-19 15:31
One more thing about dry ice (solid carbon dioxide, a material which does not, under normal pressures, have a liquid state, by the way) and the handling of same.
I once took home a cooler left in the lobby of my office building that had a large chunk of dry ice in same. Apparently someone had had some steaks or other food delivered by mail, and they had dumped the shipping container after unpacking same.
Dry ice can produce all sorts of effects and such. For example, placed inside the mouth in a vented plastic capsule, it gives the effect of smoke issuing from your pie hole. Down here, you can walk into most any grocery store and purchase blocks of the stuff, the better to preserve your dead deer meat or sausage. While there are some low key warnings on the freezer in which it is kept, they mostly pertain to the thermal burn hazard of the stuff. In theory, I have enough other knowledge about it from work to deal with it carefully and safely.
However, while i was doing the "Watch Mr. Wizard" bit for the kids ("Look how it bubbles in water!" and "See the radiation tracks when it produces fog in a large glass jar! - this last being one of the neater tricks that you can pull off - the passing particles actually will leave a trail through the vapor that you can see with the unaided eye) when I decided to make the point that the stuff was odor free and indistinguishable from regular breathing air.
As I was making this point, I broke the plane of the top of the cooler as if to show how smelling ("taking a sniff" is how I remember putting it) didn't give you any indication of whether or not it was even there in excess quantities.
As I did so, I probably made the mistake of taking a real breath. The concentration in the cooler cavity (it would have been about a cubic foot or so all told) was (of course) well above the 5000 ppm level, probably up in the 500,000 ppm range instead. As I sniffed, I literally started blacking out (I figure that I had been talking a lot during the "demonstration", and used the break in my patter to take in a full breath.
The sensation lasted only an instant, and most likely I would have fallen clear of the cooler's cavity had I blacked out all of the way. But, it was a wakeup call for me to remember never to do it again.
I've always been tempted to take a Drager tube reading in one of the freezers at the supermarket, just to see how high the concentration gets. Never had a good set of the detection tubes around where I got the urge, though.
The "silo" cases that my agency occasionally gets involved in usually involve a farmer who has reached down too far in to a silo to clear a conveyor outlet, only to get into the O2 deficient atmosphere and then pass out. Often, one of the family members will try to enter and get a rope around him to pull him out, whereupon that family member goes down as well. The worst one of these that I have every heard about involved no less than three family members plus a volunteer fireman, all of whom did not realize that what looked like air was actually not.
The professional theatrical productions that I have been exposed to (either as a musician or as a safety and health professional) have all involved the oil "smoke" fog production machines. I would imagine that most pro companies would not want to bother with the issues involved with dry ice (primarily cost and handling hazards). But, those fogger can be a real pain as well, particularly for vocalist and musicians who have to move a lot of air through their lungs.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: CJB
Date: 2007-04-19 16:30
I'd always wondered how pit players cope with dry ice. When I'm in the audience I usually find myself grabbing an inhaler within seconds of hte 1st wave of it reaching my seat.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-04-19 16:51
Very interesting comments/experience on your "contacts" with CO2 [dry] ice, Terry. Yes, it can be VERY hazardous, both for diminishing the O2 content of what we breath, and its low "sublimation" temp of --109 F can cause freeze-burns. The "phase diagram" in the Wiki CO2 article shows that it can be a liquid at some conditions of T and P. I recommend SERIOUS consideration of these hazards in any uses, fog generation, freezing of meats, demonstrations to students et many al "situations". TAKE CARE, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-19 16:51
Blimey! I better make sure I take my inhaler with me if I'm doing pit work.
Though most theatres have smoke machines as they're cheaper and easier to use (but noisy), but don't have the same dramatic effect as solid CO2 dropped in hot water making an eerie carpet of vapour.
I know hydrogen gets me going - the experiments at school with lithium, sodium, potassium, etc. dropped in water gave off enough H gas to irritate my pipes. Though it's unlikely that H has any applications in theatre work due to it's volatile nature.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-04-19 16:53)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-04-19 17:44
BLIMEY is rite, Chris. Sounds like Chem 101, where we generated H2 by "wrongfully" dropping small [I hope only} particles of metallic Na [again, I hope} into water [in a sink?] to attract our [harried] teacher's attention. More chemical hazards, as H2 is very combustible. I recommend it only in the common form as CH4 [natural gas], which to me is the best hope for CO2 reduction from fuel combustion, as the heavier-liquid hydrocarbons presently used have a much higher ratio of carbon to hydrogen C[n]H[2n+2]. Are we too-far afield, GBK? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-19 17:57
Jumping Jack Flash, it's a gas, gas, gas!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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