 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Library Geek
Date: 2007-04-13 01:14
In my community church orchestra, I am one of 4 clarinets. They are almost always in tune (we tune at A=440), and I am almost always flat. I've tried various remedies: "tightening up" my embouchure, pulling the clarinet closer to my body, making the corners of my mouth more round--all to no avail. I'm flat even after 1/2 hour of steady playing (both at home and at orchestra). My tuner is a Korg CA-30. Usually, I'm within the "-20" area when I tune.
This is my setup
--Buffet Ell wood clarinet (manufactured fall 1992--if that helps)
--Vandoren 5RV MP (just basic mouthpiece, no "series" or anything--I don't think)
--The barrel is the barrel that came with the clarinet. It is 64.5 mm
--Reeds: I switch between Vandoren V 12's and Vandoren Rue Lepic 56--both 3.5. Neither seems to be better than the other. I've not tried "doctoring" the reeds yet (sanding, clipping).
I realize that 99% of this difficulty with flatness is probably me and my embouchure. But, would a shorter barrel help at all, do you think? Also--if my current barrel is 64.5 mm--does that round up to 65 mm or round down to 64 mm when looking through catalogs (i.e. WWBW). Should I be looking at 64 mm? What about barrels for "A" clarinets (they seem to go shorter)?
Also--what companies for Barrels should I be looking at? What has seemed to work good with Ell's: the Buffet barrels for the R-13's, Ritenour, Moennig, Chadash? Maybe I should try a Click barrel and see how short I go until I'm in tune.
I live within 45 minutes of WWBW, so I guess it wouldn't hurt to go and try some. It's always fun to try new equipment, anyway.
Are there any other "embouchure exercises" I should try?
Also, there's this: after the fall of 1996, my clarinet basically sat in closets for the next 10 years. would this have something to do with me being flat (some of the closets were on outside walls)? Also--do Mouthpieces go bad after awhile? I don't see any obvious chips or scratches or anything.
Well, thanks for taking the time to read this, and for any advice you good people could give me. I have searched the board a bit, and tried some of the things.
Thanks,
Ann
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-04-13 01:39
Buffet E11 is build to 442HZ. These clarinets usually play sharp and not flat.
I think you need a 62 mm long Buffet barrel to bring your pitch up 20 cents.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-04-13 06:31
Have you tried any other clarinets or mouthpieces? When you go to WWBW try some other clarinets and mouthpieces too. Also try other instruments with your mouthpiece, and try other mouthpieces on your instrument. Don't buy a barrel (or anything) before you know that is the problem. That's like a doctor recommending a cure before he knows what's wrong with you.
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Author: Library Geek
Date: 2007-04-13 10:59
Thanks for the advice so far. I will definitely try other mouthpieces and clarinets. Mouthpieces--would it be worth trying some of the Vandoren 13 Series (i.e. 5RV 13 Series), which is pitched to A=440? Also--are barrels tuned to a certain pitch? would it be worth finding and trying some that were pitched to A=440?
Ann
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2007-04-13 11:36
Ann,
I'd be interested to hear how this resolves for you, since I have a similar problem -- though with a 67 mm barrel, so I have a good deal more room for mitigation that way! I'm a pretty recent returnee to clarinet, so my embouchure is likely the main problem, though my pitch seems pretty insensitive to anything I can do with my embouchure. I did try two clarinets and three mouthpieces with little difference.
I also ordered a Click barrel, partly to address my general intonation and partly because it seemed potentially a useful tool anyway, but had to return it. It did not fit on my Evette (plastic, West German, ca. 1980) clarinet -- the bottom socket was too small to receive the upper joint tenon. I don't know if the Evette has a larger than typical tenon, or if the barrel was defective, or what -- of course a solid wood or plastic barrel could be opened up, I would imagine, to accommodate a larger tenon but the Click's socket is a hollow wall of thin plastic, so that presumably wouldn't be a good idea.
One thing I haven't done yet, and should, is to have an experienced player play my instruments and see if they can play them in tune.
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2007-04-13 13:48
A442 Barrels are tuned at 64.5mm. A440 are tuned at 66.5. You need a shorter barrel. The VD13 series mouthpieces would lower your pitch more as well.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-04-13 14:26
SVClarinet09 wrote:
> A442 Barrels are tuned at 64.5mm. A440 are tuned at 66.5..
That is not necessarily true.
The Bb Amati clarinet (for example) comes with factory supplied barrels at 60mm and 62mm.
However, most American players move to slightly longer barrels - measured at approximately 63.5mm ...GBK
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Author: Library Geek
Date: 2007-04-13 17:43
I called WWBW, and set up a time tomorrow to go and try some equipment.
--The barrels I wanted to try (Buffets--2 shorter Moennigs(63,64) and 2 shorter R-13 (63,64) are all out of stock or on back order. I am going to go ahead and try the Original Click--just so I can shorten it and try to see if that helps (tone might not be greatest). I wanted the international Click--but it also is on backorder.
--I'm also going to try some mouthpieces--Vandorens 5RV (series 13), a traditional %RV, and an M13.
--Clarinets--I'll try another Bb Ell, and a Bb R-13, just for fun.
Thanks for all the comments. I hope to go back and try the shorter barrels when they come in.
Ann
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Author: D
Date: 2007-04-13 20:20
Perhaps one or two of the other clarinet players in your group might be prepared to try and play your clarinet in tune. Or let you try theirs.
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Author: Library Geek
Date: 2007-04-13 20:46
D--Thanks for that. I might do that next week. Actually, at practice last night, we were all flat. I thought the temperature in the room was a bit cold, so that might have had something to do with that.
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Author: Detru Cofidin
Date: 2007-04-13 21:46
Forget the "13 series" mouthpieces since they lower the pitch. Do try other mouthpieces and barrels etc.
Nicholas Arend
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Author: Library Geek
Date: 2007-04-13 22:45
Just looked at Vandoren's website. Is the M13 considered a "13 series" --pitched at A-442? I've done a search here, and it looks like people like the m13 with E11's. What about the M13 lyre?
I like a dark sound (though, not flat).
Ann
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2007-04-13 23:08
It seems to me that you probably are playing with a loose embouchre, which tends to make you flat. The easiest way to test your setup would be, as others have suggested, to have someone else in your group, who usually plays in tune, try your equipment and see if it plays flat for them. If the reason for the flatness is your embouchre then a different instrument won't help.
A shorter barrel is the easiest way to raise your pitch. Get one a couple of mm
shorter than what you have now.
In Vandoren mouthpieces the "13" series is made to play slightly flatter (440)
than the non 13s (442), but a shorter barrel would be the quickest, easiest fix.
Post Edited (2007-04-14 14:11)
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Author: DaveKessler
Date: 2007-04-14 00:38
Like everyone here said, you can go shorter barrel.
However, 64.5mm is short already. I would highly recommend trying to fix this with reed and mouthpiece as it sounds like lazy embochure is the real culprit here.
You may also want to explore the idea that there might be a small crack. This can lead to pitch problems as well.
Dave Kessler
Kessler & Sons Music
http://www.kesslermusic.com
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2007-04-14 01:34
Library Geek wrote:
> Is the M13 considered a "13 series" --pitched at A-442? I've done a search here, and it looks like people like the m13 with E11's.
Series 13 Mouthpieces are tuned at A=440 lowering pitch. The M13 and M13lyre are both tuned at A=440 because they are ONLY series 13 mouthpieces if you look on vandorens website.
As for what I said earlier, GBK, what I meant was that many makers(including his clarinet) set barrels at A442 by making the length 64.5mm. As always there are exceptions.
I'm suspecting it might be your embouchure. Try getting up with a teacher. Your equipment to me seems very much in check. What note are you exactly tuning on? It could also be lack of air support. I would check all that before suspecting equipment issues. I recently went throught a problem and found out that my clarinet is just made this way so some notes are more flat than others thanks to Tom Ridenour.
Quick edit:
Are you SURE you're tuning to A=440 or whatever your local group tunes at? What do they tune at? Might sound stupid but once I was tuning at A=452 by accident. Stupid school tuners ;]
Post Edited (2007-04-14 01:41)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-04-14 08:56
"what I meant was that many makers(including his clarinet) set barrels at A442 by making the length 64.5mm. As always there are exceptions."
With what player, mouthpiece and weather do they tune barrels like this? I think a specific barrel length never has an exact tuning unless it is matched specifically to a player and their setup.
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Author: Library Geek
Date: 2007-04-14 10:50
Melvin: I checked with my orchestra director the other night, and he said we did indeed tune to A=440. My tuner (a Korg CA-30) says 440 when I tune to it. the other day, I played around with it, and I was actually in tune at A=335. I tune on both open G and the next C above that (is that "concert C?).
I didn't bring this up earlier (sorry--but the comment about the crack (Dave)made me think of it): when I first got the clarinet in high school (1992), I had to return part of it because of a crack. I don't remember what part. It might have been the barrel. On the barrel i have, there is a line (both inside and out) where it might have been patched (do they patch barrels?). I thought at first that it might have just been a line of varnish, but I stood outside in the sun yesterday, and discovered that this line is both inside and out. So, that might indeed have something to do with it. I don't remember what we tuned to in high school, or even if my director used a tuner much.
I took some lessons last spring and summer (a former high school band director). she told me my embouchure was ok. Then again, she never had her clarinet out when I was there to demonstrate things. So, not sure how good that was. For better or worse, I never asked why she didn't have her clarinet.
thanks for all this. I know I need to work on my embouchure more (and in general, play more--which will help).
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-04-14 11:29
Have someone else (a player who is in tune and plays well) play your instrument and see where the pitch is.
Sounds like you might have an HP
clarinet (no, not Hewlitt Packard, but a High Pitch species).
If so, well, check the piggy bank and the cookie jar.
Also, is there a good instrument tech. near you? It might be prudent to pay a visit.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2007-04-14 11:31)
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Author: Library Geek
Date: 2007-04-14 18:05
Thanks all.
I went to WWBW this morning and emerged 3 hours later with a new Vandoren 5RV mouthpiece and Vandoren traditional ("Blue Box") reeds (3.5's). Yes, the MP is the same as my old one, just new. I tried 3 new 5RVs and took the one I liked best.
I did this because: I tried the "click" barrel--didn't change anything--I was flat from short to long barrel. I put the 5RV on my own barrel and clarinet, and I was in tune when I played a very low E, the lowest C, open G, and the C above that. When I played other high, middle, and low notes, I wasn't always on tune, but I was Not always consistently flat either. I was closer to "in tune" on most of the notes. Is anyone ever on tune always on every note?
The real proof came to me when I tried brand new clarinets: an E11 (what I have now), and a Buffet R-13 (might I just say, WOW!!). I was on tune (same notes) on the new E11--with the new barrel from it (64.5 mm with my handy dandy calipers). I was even in tune on the R-13 (with a barrel lenght of 65.5 or 66 mm). When I put my old mouthpiece on these instruments, I was flat.
One thing that worries me--I only really was in tune with the Blue Box reeds. (although, I was not in tune with the blue box reeds on my old mouthpiece). The Vandoren 3.5 Rue Lepic and V12's didn't work.
Has anyone found this with the 5RV--Blue Box works, other reeds don't.
Well, I have 30 days to return it, so if I find I'm not satisfied, I can return it. I'll try my new mouthpiece on bandmates' clarinets this week, just to try.
I guess I'm back to basics--5RV, Ell, and Blue box (although 4's instead of 3.5's) were what I played in high school (too bad I don't know if I was violently sharp or flat back then).
So, thanks for listening to my ramblings.
Post Edited (2007-04-14 20:38)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-04-14 18:24
Measure the inside exit bore of your OLD mouthpiece.
Betcha it is narrower than the new one.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Library Geek
Date: 2007-04-14 18:33
Using calipers, I got 10 mm for both new and old barrel (measuring the inside of the round part where the cork is.)
Ann
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-04-14 22:09
LG,
I am talking about the exit bore of the mouthpiece....the inside diameter of the OLD mouthpiece vs. the new...measure it in thousanths of an inch, eg.
0.590 might be the NEW one, but the old one might be 0.585....a BIG difference when it come to intonation, as is the distance from the throat of the mouthpiece (constricted inside area just beneath the window) and the exit at the very bottom.
in mm it would be approx 14.9 vs 14.85mm or so, big enough to effect pitch, so measure carefully.
See the picture attached to the next post in this thread (I resized it for ease of viewing)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2007-04-14 22:18)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-04-14 22:16
Attachment: IMG_0003.JPG (72k)
Measure like so, at the same spot on each mouthpiece, just at the exit (I had to let the calipers rest higher up into the bore so that I could take the picture...it should be just at the exit, and try in several diameters....yes, they might not be perfectly circular)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2007-04-15 00:31)
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Author: Library Geek
Date: 2007-04-14 23:03
Alseq--thanks for this. I will do that and post the results. I am in the middle of a project, but maybe I'll get it posted by early tomorrow a.m.
Ann
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-04-14 23:04
>Has anyone found this with the 5RV--Blue Box works, other reeds don't.
for some students, yes. others, no.
if that combination works for you, cool, have at it.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Library Geek
Date: 2007-04-15 00:48
About the blue box reeds. I was looking on Vandoren's website--they have a "reed comparison index". The Traditional 3.5 appears to be stronger [harder?] than either the V12 or 56. The Traditional 3.5 is equal with a 56 3.5+. So, it seems I've been using softer reeds. So, if I got a reed trimmer, I could start experimenting with making 56 and V12 3.5 reeds a bit harder.
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Author: Library Geek
Date: 2007-04-15 17:09
Alseq--see attached (I hope) picture. I measured the inside of the exit bore (where the piece starts to go into the barrel. It is 10mm on both clarinets. I think I am measuring in the right spot. My calipers have notches on them, so they cannot go all the way into the mouthpiece. The pic. shows the old mouthpiece, but I did the same thing for both.
Ann
oops-I tried to attach a picture, but it would not let me (I'm probably doing it wrong). I thought I was measuring in the right spot.
Anybody know where I can find a diagram of a mouthpiece, so I can match labels with a "picture".
Ann
Post Edited (2007-04-15 17:24)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-04-15 18:26
While you are fixing the picture dilemna, somehow 10mm is NOT right for any measurement in that area that would give a meaningful dimension for what is going on.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Library Geek
Date: 2007-04-15 21:26
That's why I want to find a diagram of the inside and outside of a mouthpiece. I was looking at Tom Ridenour's article on mouthpieces--he has a lot of vocabulary in there I'm unfamilar with--as far as mouthpieces go--chamber, bore, baffle. If I could see a diagram with the parts labeled, I'd better understand where to measure.
Oh well, this is turning out to be a great education.
Thanks,
Ann
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-04-16 01:03
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/nomenclature.asp
This link shows two good pictures (one at the top, the other, more conventional one, at the bottom of the page) of the innards of a mouthpiece.
The part labelled "bore" and "exit bore" corresponds to the picture I uploaded several postings above.
That is the diameter to measure.
Measure it on your NEW and your OLD mouthpiece.
I will wager that the OLD one has the narrower exit bore.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him bark.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2007-04-16 01:08)
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2007-04-18 03:58
OK, the bit about playing flat with one type of reed and not another interests me -- I seem to have a hole in my knowledge here. Does reed strength affect pitch? I.e. would a given player with a given instrument, mouthpiece, etc., play sharper or flatter with different strength reeds? And what direction does it go? Stronger reeds -> sharper pitch?
Or is pitch more affected by other characteristics of the reed -- and if so, what?
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Author: old999
Date: 2007-04-18 08:36
This may be off the wall, but I, too, was slightly flat with my R13 and M13 mouthpiece and original or click barrel. Then I noticed there was a tiny gap between the mouthpiece and the barrel. I had to push really hard, but the gap closed and I came up to pitch with my teacher and his tuner at 440.
Al
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-04-18 23:50
I was taught ages ago, and currently teach, and also found in one of my old technique study books that a high D (above the staff) should be the same note as just your mpc and reed.
to quote the book - Intermediate Style Etudes and Technical Exercises by Harry Gee (no date on it but it's over 25 yrs old)
EMBOUCHURE (development section)
play high D, then mpc/reed ..
This demonstrate the correct tightness to be used for a fine clarinet tone. Remember the clarinet is played "on the top of the tone" with the lips firm on all sides. THe clarinet embouchure is firm at all times with the chin down. Avoid biting by the use of jaw pressure.
it then goes on to octave change exercises, then long tones by playing note vis overblowing the clarinet iwth its natural overtones. Supposed for "this exercise will help in the development of embouchure, air-support, and control from the chalumeau to the clarion register".
When i play my high D and mpc/reed are in tune. I'm curious how many other ppl have studied this, or if it works for them ?
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Author: DezzaG
Date: 2007-04-19 03:56
Concert Bflat or Bnatural are more spot on for the mouthpiece alone. A concert C is too much pressure IMHO.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-04-20 13:42
Interesting. I played E11 out of the box with 5RV and blue box reeds for ages. Came out somewhere between 440 and 442Hz. Now I play a Selmer Paris which on a warm day will hit 444Hz with its 66.5mm barrel. Which is good, cos the band I'm in right now also play 444Hz on a warm day. Goes to show something, I guess.
I could never play blue-box 4's on mine. 2.5 more like. :-D
I wonder what happened to your old mouthpiece to make it so flat? Did it have a scary encounter with a reamer in a previous career?
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Author: Library Geek
Date: 2007-04-22 23:31
I think I scratched my old mouthpiece. I used one of these "mouthpiece Mouse" things to swab it out after playing (I never left it in there). The ends of the plastic rod stuck out, and I think as I pushed it through the mouthpiece, it scratched it. I used to also occassionally use a brush that came in a woodwind care kit to clean the mouthpiece. That might have also done it.
With the new mouthpiece, I just rinse it out with tap water, shake it out bit (holding tightly so it doesn't fly across the room), and let it air dry before putting it back in the case.
Ann
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-04-23 12:21
I think it would have to be more serious than that. Maybe it was just flat out of the factory.
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