 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-04-11 05:41
Seriously what is the deal with people getting upset about getting vandoren mouthpieces refaced? Vandoren mouthpieces are definitely not inferior in the way of their sound capabilities, just mostly the way of their finish. People pay premium on custom mouthpieces because they are hand finished and have more time (hopefully) spent working on the mouthpiece, so why not save your vandoren mouthpiece that you possibly grew up on? Vandoren mouthpieces really do have a great potential, but there is always a margin of error in mass producing any one product which can be seen as the "defective" or inferior instruments/mouthpieces/reeds, what not.
Refaced M15's rock.
what are your thoughts?
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-04-11 05:53
Just wanted to add: what is an exceptionally mouthpiece? Does a good mouthpiece consist of getting a rich sound OR making your entire clarinet resonate while at the same time producing a rich sound?
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-04-11 06:04
> what is an exceptional mouthpiece?
It fits your snout. It obeys your intentions.
I advocate refacing every structurally good mouthpiece.
I don't mean "reface sight unseen", of course. But maybe after years of playing, maybe after an affair with a different mouthpiece, as C2thew suggested, your trusty old companion deserves a second life.
It probably is cheaper than an all-new mouthpiece, and certainly more of a "custom" feeling than an off-the-rack beak.
--
Ben
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Author: energia eolica
Date: 2007-04-11 06:30
Refacing a Vandoren is completely altering the mouthpiece into a product of the refacer's design. By altering it, you change everything. It has been my experience that good M15s play in tune. When you reface them, you throw this out of whack. You also change what is basically an even-sounding and responding mouthpiece into something different. The mouthpiece was designed a certain way and that way works well. All the dimensions of the bore, baffle, facing, and everything are designed to work in synergy. Reface it, and you throw off this balance.
I had a refaced M15 that was the "biggest", "darkest," and most free-blowing mouthpiece I've ever played. Only problem was that it was out of tune and not as even. Upon switching to a stock M15, I found I could sound just as good but with a lot less effort.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-04-11 06:50
energia eolica-- "I had a refaced M15 that was the "biggest", "darkest," and most free-blowing mouthpiece I've ever played. Only problem was that it was out of tune and not as even. Upon switching to a stock M15, I found I could sound just as good but with a lot less effort."
It has a lot to do with the quality of the person doing the work.
> what is an exceptional mouthpiece?
I look for a mouthpiece in which every note speakes easily. And I look for one in which all reeds can play well. When I work on mouthpieces, I sometimes play for 10-20 minutes and start to feel that just one note is not speaking as well as the rest; I then adjust the mouthpiece so that that note is fixed and the others still retain their qualities. Basically I try to remove "compromise" from all of it.
Post Edited (2007-04-11 06:51)
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2007-04-11 07:33
You just wouldn't reface a Vandoren mouthpiece because it's already perfect...
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2007-04-11 12:28
Dave McClune's very fine JP mouthpiece is an extensively
reworked M13.
D.O.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-04-11 12:38
It doesn't matter what brand or model the mouthpiece is -- if it doesn't play exactly the way you want it to, then it's a candidate for refacing by a competent mouthpiece technician.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-04-11 13:45
Just, as various refacers have responded when I asked about refacing, understand that they can't make a bad mouthpiece into a great one. But I'm sure a refacer can help a good one become even better.
If you wanna reface a vandoren, go for it. Seems like a good idea if you like a vandoren you have.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-04-11 14:28
Someone who knows what they are doing would not necessarily throw it "out of whack". A good technician understands the relationship of the baffle, bore, chamber and facing. There are some good Vandorens out there and some junk. They vary tremendously. Ask anyone with a who has done measurements on them.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-04-11 15:16
I'm dying to recieve a modified Vandoren M30/13 back from Lee Livengood. This project is an experiment to see just what will happen when a skilled mouthpiece technician (and excellen clarinetist) takes the time and effort to massage a 13-series Vandoren.
The history is:
I played on an M30 --like my teacher's for over a year. I had problems getting into the altissimo. Not just the mpc, of course, but a lack of confidence and support. The rest of the range was fine. I lacked the discipline to keep enough of that long lay in my mouth, and when it came time for the alti, I often couldn't get the note to speak because there wasn't enough reed to drive it.
I sat down with Mr. Livengood in his studio, and we explored alternaitves. I came away with one of his facings on a Zinner blank for my R13. It meets his criterion of being "easy". I don't have to work or worry about mouthpieces-related problems when I play. With this mouthpiece, the intonation over the range of the instrument is indistinguishable from the M30.
So, the test we're doing is to see how a Livengood voicing and facing works on the Vandoren blank.
BTW: I've now played on 3 VD M30/13s, and they are remakably consistent. I can't tell one from the other! Good stuff,
...and Jeanette Jonquil loves them because she can find a replacement "at the local crocery store." (she's thinking about changing to an M30, but currently performs on something else).
Bob Phillips
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-04-11 16:00
sfalexi wrote: "Just, as various refacers have responded when I asked about refacing, understand that they can't make a bad mouthpiece into a great one. But I'm sure a refacer can help a good one become even better."
I beg to differ, Alexi. With effort and the willingness to do interior rework as well as changing the facing curve, a good mouthpiece technician can make virtually any mouthpiece into a very good (if not great) one. The real question is whether the results warrant the effort expended. It's far quicker and easier (thus less expensive for the customer) to start with a mouthpiece that's already good, and make it better. It certainly is possible to start with a complete dog of a mouthpiece and make it excellent, but the number of hours of labor involved is not likely to be paid for by a customer at a reasonable hourly rate!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-04-11 16:04
At the ClarinetFest several years ago, a panel of mouthpiece makers agreed that a mouthpiece will stay in good condition for about a year of regular playing. After a year, the beating of the reed against the lay will erode the surface enough that it needs a touchup.
Those of us who have gone to a mouthpiece maker's workshop and had a mouthpiece tweaked will know that a microscopic change - a single swipe on 600 grit sandpaper - can make a dramatic difference in tone and response.
Signs that a mouthpiece needs attention include increased resistance, difficulty attacking altissimo notes and difficulty making wide slurs.
Tom Ridenour said to check the lay by wetting it with saliva, holding it beneath a piece of plate glass and rolling the mouthpiece up the curve of the lay. If you see curved rings at the contact point, it's a sign that the lay is badly worn.
Ken Shaw
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