 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-04-10 15:09
I'm sitting here depressed because I spent all weekend working on a promising-looking clarinet which despite my efforts is unplayable because of poor intonation.
I recently acquired a very tarnished Alfred Jourdian 3/4-Boehm clarinet, with silver-plated keys, in the hopes that, once restored, its playing qualities would match its appearance. Such was not to be. It has so many intonation problems that despite two days of tonehole modifications, register tube modifications, and experimentation with various bells, barrels, and mouthpieces, I can't get the intonation to meet my personal standard of acceptability (which I'd summarize as about plus or minus 5 cents from A-440 everywhere, with a little more deviation allowed on the low E and up in the altissimo where the notes can be readily 'favored').
As for the silver plating of the keywork, it appears to be an aftermarket job since the flat springs are plated (!) -- whoever did the job was too lazy to remove springs before plating the keys. Still, you'd think that a manufacturer who went to the trouble of building in all the additional keywork (extra ring, articulated G#, alternate Ab/Eb) would make sure the bloody thing played halfway in tune?
If anyone has any suggestions, I'd sure appreciate them. I've 'fixed' most of the individual notes to be approximately in tune with their neighbors, but the one major problem that has me stumped is that the clarion register is, on average, about 20 cents FLATTER than the chalumeau and throat registers (which are now acceptably in tune, as is the altissimo).
The clarinet otherwise looks nice and has a decent sound, so I'd hate to give up and throw the thing in the parts bin.
Maybe the gods are doing this to me as an "anti-hubris" measure -- I was starting to think I could fix just about anything on a clarinet. There have been other instruments I've worked on that simply wouldn't respond to treatment, not all of them vintage ones either. Anyone else have a clarinet that just couldn't be made right?
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-04-10 15:40
Sounds interisting- the clarion flatter than the chalumeau!
Tell me- how are the overtones? If you play some overtone excercises without register keys, do the overtones line up with that of one of your better horns?
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Author: D
Date: 2007-04-10 15:58
It's not one that requires some weirdarse mouthpiece to play in tune is it?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-10 16:03
The clarion register is normally flatter in comparison to the chalumeau - but only by a tiny amount.
I had a similar thing with a Richard Keilwerth Eb clarinet - it was unplayable when I bought it and had the forked Bb mechanism (which I thought would be a bonus considering how much I use the forked fingering for Eb/Bb), so I stripped it down, cleaned it all up and repadded it.
When I played it after it was all finished, the tuning was all over the place, and the upper register is way too sharp in comparison to the lower which is strange, and the altissimo is off the scale.
I know it has a German bore, but I was hoping it would at least play a single scale in tune, and have some degree of stability.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-04-10 20:30
Recall the Conn "propeller wood" horns; sometimes looks give one a false impression.
It's just like everyone used to say about the less attractive girls at the dance - looks aren't everything. So too with clarinets...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Fred
Date: 2007-04-10 22:01
Flat clarion . . . replated keys . . .
Is it possible that the register vent has become just incrementally smaller and has too much restriction now? Or was that part even replated?
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2007-04-10 23:33
David,
My pitch acceptability is very wide ,so you can send it to me.
Sometimes it's best for you not see it ever again.
Seriously,my hunch is that the overall bore taper is wrong.
1.Try very narrow and short barrel with combination of small volume mp.
If you don't have one,you can put temporary lining inside of the barrel.
This will raise overall pitch,but the relative intonation will be better
2.This is better solution if you have bore reamer.
Try ream lower joint only making wider at the bottom,this will correct most of the problem
If you don't have a reamer you can improvize with a round sanding stick.
If that doesn't work,my address is.....
Post Edited (2007-04-10 23:34)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-04-11 00:01
It's the bore! I still think that you are Superman - my faith is not shaken.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-04-11 02:39
Thanks, all! I may have found the problem: The register vent is located about 2mm higher on the top joint than on all my other clarinets. So I will relocate it to a lower spot and see what happens......
I thought that register key looked suspiciously long!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-04-13 03:13
Success! ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
Relocating the register tube 2mm lower brought the clarion register up to the same average pitch as the rest of the clarinet. There are still some individual notes that need to be tweaked, but the Alfred Jourdian is now a viable musical instrument.
To test our acoustic theory, I'm going to see if the converse holds true: I have a German-made William Nuremberger "American Artist" clarinet whose clarion register is a good 10-15 cents SHARP compared to the rest of the horn, so I'm relocating its register vent upwards about 1.5mm to see if that brings the average clarion register pitch down.
One of the great things about The Internet Auction Site Whose Name Shall Not Be Mentioned is its almost limitless supply of second-rate clarinets at rock-bottom prices, just begging for acoustic experimentation.
Science on the cheap -- yeah!
Post Edited (2007-04-13 14:48)
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-04-13 18:21
"One of the great things about The Internet Auction Site Whose Name Shall Not Be Mentioned is its almost limitless supply of second-rate clarinets at rock-bottom prices, just begging for acoustic experimentation"
and i'll make sure that Alfred Jourdian is on my list NOT to buy
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-10-11 14:46
*bump*
Can moving the register tube up or down along the length of the clarinet really change the pitch of *all* clarion tones?
I thought it only moved which notes have the optimum twelfths.
Citing Clark Fobes:
"Each fundamental mode of the clarinet can be excited into vibrating at its second partial (interval of a twelfth) by venting the air column at a position approximately one third of the distance from the mouthpiece to the first open tone hole of the fundamental tone. If the vent is placed to either side of this ideal location the pitch of the twelfth will rise."
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/articles/TuningtheClarinetforPS.htm
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-10-11 16:18
Compare the length with another clarinet. I have a Couesnon that is significantly shorter though it isn't very old. I have ben too busy to see if it plays acceptably at a different tuning.
Steve Ocone
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-10-12 03:00
Johan H Nilsson wrote:
> Please note the date of the initial post.
David and Chris are still around
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2014-10-12 05:33
I'm still around but that clarinet is long gone.
I hope to outlive at least some of my clarinets, but given that a few that I play regularly are already 80+ years old and still going strong, I certainly won't outlive most of them.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-10-12 13:06
David, were you really able to raise the entire clarion register by moving the register tube?
Or was the register tube altered in some other way?
I'm trying to understand the cause and effects of the register tube and this story did not fit in to the other material I have found.
I understand this was a while ago.
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Author: Malcolm Martland
Date: 2014-10-16 14:49
I'm the proud owner of that Keilwerth Eb. Maybe I should send it to David Spiegelthal! I made some progress with different barrels and mouthpieces but it's still infuriatingly out of tune. Interesting keywork and a lovely repad though, Chris P.
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