 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: joker774
Date: 2007-04-04 22:02
Hello clarinettists,
Great forum here. I searched for an answer to my questions but can't find one - apologies if I didn't search cleverly enough.
The questions:
1) how much (in cents, as indicated on a digital tuner) out of tune is unacceptable for a new professional-level clarinet?
2) does tuning change at all with age?
The background:
The other day I bought - rather randomly I must admit - an RC prestige A clarinet. In the shop I tried about 7 of them and took the one that gave the best first impression in terms of sound texture / ease of play. BUT: I didn't bother checking the intonation with a tuner even though I was told to do so (I did rule out an RC A instrument because it had a flat low F even to my relatively untrained ear). Now I checked with a tuner and it seems that although in general the intonation is good, the low F is way off. About 15-20 cents low depending on whether I try to raise it. Now that the tuner says it, I can hear it too. I'm worried that it'll be too obvious when playing with a piano.
Should I worry and go through a lot of hassle to have it swapped, or is this just the way things are? (I saw several people here mention A clarinets have flatter low F's than usual).
I'm of course an idiot for not listening carefully enough (or take a tuner!!!) in the shop. Until two days ago, I didn't even know that low F tends to be flat with most instruments (my RC is fine, hence...), so although I did listen to the intonation, I didn't concentrate on the low F especially, now I know I was wrong.
Any help very welcome,
j.
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Author: FDF
Date: 2007-04-05 00:31
My suggestion is to go back to the shop with your tuner, and tell the owner/salesperson that you'd like to rethink your purchase. If they care, they'll help.
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Author: joker774
Date: 2007-04-05 10:13
Thanks for the reply FDF. You're totally right, only problem is the shop is 500 miles away (yes, why on earth did I buy it from there, indeed) so it's a major hassle. Hence I was hoping people could give a sense of how bad the problem is and how likely it is that of the other two nice sounding instruments they had there will be one that doesn't have the same problem.
Any guesses?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-04-05 14:15
How's the rest of the tuning? If the rest is pretty well in tune, and it's just the low F that's radically out of tune, there are ways to fix it. I had one of my clarinets worked on by someone who drilled a vent hole in the bell which raised up the low F to be much better in tune. As a matter of fact, an F venting hole is standard on the Forte and probably one or two other models of clarinets.
But how's the rest of the instrument? In my mind, if you have a great instrument and it's ONE bad apple of a note, I'd look into fixing that note than finding a whole new instrument. ESPECIALLY when there IS a way.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2007-04-05 14:23
If the C a 12th above is flat, it's relatively easy to fix the pitch on the F. Either the pad doesn't open far enough, or the hole is too small.
Chris Hill
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Author: joker774
Date: 2007-04-05 23:01
Alexi, Chris, thanks for your comments.
The C at the twelfth is sharp, so I'd need a solution that fixes the F only; guess that's hard without a special button like on the Tosca.
As for general intonation: it's OK'ish but not great. I must say part of it may be due to my unfamiliarity with the instrument and my lack of good practice over the past half year, so embouchure is a bit on the soft side at the moment.
Here are the deviations in cents, more or less averaged over 3 reeds. Starting from bottom E going up chromatically to the D in the clarion register.
-8, -14, -10, -7, 0, 0, 0, 0, +7 (that's the C), +7, +6, +1, +3, 0 (that's the F),
+10, +10, +15, +5, +12, +12, +8, +7, +4, and then all pretty good
There is of course some randomness in this. The sharpness at the throat notes can be fixed (in fact the A and Bb throat notes I already fixed)
On my Bb RC, the same exercise results in about 50% to 70% of this type of deviation, with a roughly similar pattern, but fewer outliers.
My mouthpiece is a Vandoren B45 lyre, which I find excellent, but I need to pull the barrel quite a bit in order to play at 443Hz. If I don't pull the barrel at all, intonation gets even more uneven, in particular the throat tones are even sharper. The mouthpiece is definitely too sharp, same thing on my Bb.
When trying with the buffet crappy mouthpiece, intonation patterns were similar though.
I looked at the pattern given at this page:
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/Tuning%20article/Tuning%20the%20Clarinet%20for%20PS.htm
so the one I get is really quite a bit worse.
Of course it could improve as the instrument gets blown in and I get used to it, but I doubt fixing it mechanically is much of an option.
Do you think I am likely to find one that's better in tune? Likely enough to justify a £100 journey, that is.
It's clear that the people in the shop didn't try the instruments out (in fact, the one I bought didn't fit together properly when I took it out of the box).
Many thanks in advance for your comments.
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2007-04-06 02:40
A good barrel could help. Buffet sells Moennig and Chadash barrels, which improve the intonation. I also like the pitch of the Gigliotti barrels, but I'm not sure they are still made. There are other respected barrel makers, some of whom advertise on this site. I haven't tried them personally, but they are certainly well worth trying.
Chris Hill
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Author: joker774
Date: 2007-04-06 17:43
Mm, yes, i'll definitely go down that route if it turns out I can't swap the instrument.
You do agree that the deviations I posted above are excessive? I've tried over several days, different reeds, tuning rings, etc, and the general picture is always similar. It's way farther off course than my Bb instrument. For the Bb I can hardly hear anything being flat / sharp, except for a few throat notes perhaps.
What magnitude of deviations does your instrument have?
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Author: Wes
Date: 2007-04-07 06:55
This is not an unusual problem and it was worse many years ago on a lot of clarinets.
One way that the pitch of a low register note can be raised without changing the second register corresponding note is by undercutting the vent hole below the flat note pad.
This is best done by an experienced clarinet tuner person who would have the right tools for the job. Undercutting can be done by special undercutters from Ferree's, by small round rat tail files, and even by a pointed eXacto knife blade, carefully used.
Recently, I used all three tools on a good LP simple system clarinet to bring up the pitch of certain low register notes without changing the second register notes. For a flat low E, some tuners drill a hole in the bell(not my choice) or enlarge the inside of the bell two to three inches below the joint ring.
Perhaps a phone call to the seller would be a good idea, explaining your situation. Good luck!
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Author: joker774
Date: 2007-04-07 14:44
Thanks for your advice Wes. I'd read about this on the web, but didn't know it did not affect the corresponding second register notes (which are slightly sharp already). You reckon it does not affect the timbre of the sound?
Fortunately the low E is not outrageously flat, so the drilling won't be necessary.
I'll give the shop a ring now. I just spent a few days trying with different reeds / mouthpieces, etc, so that the guy in the shop can't dismiss my complaints with some argument along the lines "it's you, not the instrument".
What I do not understand, though, is that Buffet Crampon sells these top of the range clarinets without proper quality control.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-04-07 16:21
I'd suggest a two-pronged approach: A vent hole on the bell to sharpen the low chalumeau notes (which as noted will make the clarion notes too sharp), along with a longer register vent tube (preferred) or slight enlargement of the register tube inside diameter (second choice) to lower the pitch of the clarion register -- this should have a beneficial side effect of improving the throat Bb ("pinch" fingering) if that note is stuffy and/or low in pitch.
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Author: joker774
Date: 2007-04-09 19:54
Thanks David. I'll suggest this if I find a tuning specialist. Messing around with the register tube seems like something I'd be kind of afraid of. Can such interventions alter the timbre of the sound?
I called the shop, but of course they'd forgotten the "you can always swap it" pre-sales talk. Really quite irritating.
Anybody has any more views on what are "usual" magnitudes of pitch deviations?
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2007-04-09 20:53
I have no idea what's considered usual, but here are the deviations on my full-boehm Selmer K-series at A=442.
-18 (low Eb), -12, -10, -2, +5, +2, +10, +8, +10, +8, +5, +2, 0, -2, 0, -2, 0, 0, -4, -4 (register Bb)
+2 (bell Bb), +6, +2, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, -2, 0, 0, +8 (side-key C#)
+12 (ususal C#), 0, 0, 0, -4
Higher than that I don't think I ever have a neutral embouchure so I can't measure an 'unadjusted' pitch.
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Author: joker774
Date: 2007-04-12 11:59
I haven't taken the thing out of the house yet, because it needs to be brand new if I want to swap it. In fact, I'm not even touching it.
But playing the "worst" intervals on my own I can hear it, and so could a friend of mine (also a musician, admittedly) in a blind test.
So I'm sure it'll be obvious even to a non-musician when playing with a piano. Just occasionally, when there is a unison or octave match or so.
Intervals that are 5-10 cents off I cannot hear myself when playing alone (or, I'm sure, with others), so it wouldn't bother me, but 20 really is quite a bit (= 20% of a semitone).
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