 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: claclaws
Date: 2007-04-04 13:53
I searched and found the following thread:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=163162&t=163123
But it doesn't seem to answer the original question, I'm afraid.
Let me ask again: Why Bb clarinet? Is it because it is the way (the most common) clarinets are? Due to the first person who made it? Did he/she particularly like the scale performed in that key?
Why?
Lucy Lee Jang
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2007-04-04 14:38
Well, that thread DOES answer the original question, though I'm not sure it answers it well. The claim there is that the C clarinet's tone was too shrill and the A too mellow.
But plenty of music has been written for C and A clarinets, just less than for Bb.
Flat key transposing instruments are common in wind bands, not just clarinets but saxophones, trumpets, and so on. Sax in fact envisioned two families of saxophones, one for orchestral use in C and F and one for wind band use in Bb and Eb. Why wind bands gravitated toward flat key transposing instruments I don't know, but that had to have at least reinforced the dominance of the Bb clarinet. (There's a lot of scholarly work on the history of orchestral music, instruments, and musicians, but there seems to be much less on wind bands -- at least I've seen much less, and that's puzzling considering the influence of wind bands on other music... for instance, the fact that it was the wind band saxes and not the orchestral saxes that were the successful family. I wish I knew more about the subject.)
Additionally, due to clarinets' overblowing at the twelfth, the keywork and hence the fingering is a little more complicated than on most other woodwinds. Hence the common orchestral clarinetist's practice of carrying a pair of clarinets in Bb and A. Usually music in flat keys would be written for the Bb clarinet and music in the sharp keys for the A, to give the clarinetist fewer accidentals to deal with.
Anyway, I suspect it's a combination of better sounding instruments in Bb than in other keys, historical accident, ease of fingering, and the wind band influence that made the Bb predominant.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-04-04 14:49
...and why is it Bb or Eb and not A# and D#, respectively?
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-04 15:20
Possibly because there are no key signatures of A# and D# - they'd have sharps and double sharps! You'd see #######xxx for a key signature of A# major whereas two flats is much easier to comprehend.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-04-04 15:25
Cause people are more comfortable reading in the key of Bb or Eb than reading in the (theoretical) keys of A# or D#.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2007-04-04 15:30
BUT, is that only because they see Bb or Eb much more often than A# & D#?
Here's my question: Why don't we learn in concert keys? Imagine that a beginner is playing a Bb clarinet - when they learn throat Bb, they learn the fingering we use now, they just call it Ab. When their music (set in concert pitch) shows an Ab on the 2nd space, they play the pinch Bb that we play now. Wouldn't that make score reading easier, and everything more efficient?
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-04-04 16:08
The concert pitch system was (more or less) founded well before there were such things as clarinets. The clarinets were, in effect, made to fit in with the pre-existing system.
You'll note that certain clarinet parts in countries of the "near middle east" (the Balkans) are written for clarinet in G. (You can even buy such a beast if you want - just make sure that you are comfortable with simple system clarinets.) The music that those parts are written for likely grew up outside of the western traditions of the tempered scale, and the instrument was the best fit (most use of open holes, less use of keys) for that "system".
You can transpose stuff into A# major in Finale, or so I've been told. It would be a frustrating read for most of us, however...
And, I am convinced that a A clarinet is no more "mellow" than a Bb, and that a C clarinet is no more "shrill" than a Bb clarinet, all this when playing the same music (the same pitches, i.e., transpose notes so each horn is playing the same concert pitch). But, I've actually sat through a trial that exposed this, rather than just relying on my impressions as a player. The sensations come from spending most of our time on a Bb horn, then contrasting the same fingerings with the different pitch. But, don't take my word for it (and most won't), try it yourself and you'll see.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2007-04-04 16:28
Mags1957 wrote:
> Wouldn't that make score reading easier, and everything more
> efficient?
Providing no Bb clarinetist ever needed to play any other size clarinet, and providing you were willing to expend the money and effort to convert all existing scores and parts to concert pitch, then yes.
But clarinetists who had to pick up an Ab or Eb or D or C or A clarinet or basset horn, alto clarinet, etc., would -- if these parts were also notated in concert pitch -- have to learn and remember a different correspondence between written note and fingering for each of these instruments.
Recorder players do that -- soprano and alto recorders, for example, are both notated at concert pitch (actually an octave down, I think) so the fingering that produces C on one produces F on the other. They cope. Then again, recorder fingering is simpler than clarinet.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2007-04-04 17:44
The reason that woodwinds are made in the keys that they are is so that all the woodwinds, in whatever key each is in, will have the same fingering for a given note. You will ask, "But what about the clarinet? Its fingering is different from the others."
True enough, but it happens to be the exception to the general rule because it crosses its register at the 12th and not the octave. All the saxophones and the flutes are fingered the same. IOW, G is three fingers of the left hand on all of them, as it is incidentally, on the clarinet as well, in the clarion register.
If each of all those horns was constructed in the key of C doublers would have a nightmare switching horns. Aren't you glad you can pick up an alto sax, or a tenor or a soprano or a baritone and just play it?
I am.
Best,
B.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-04-04 20:32
A Nother interesting discussion, there have been others ! All IMHO, if I were to compare the tone-quality of the C cl vs that of the A cl, I'd pick the the A, and wish for a slightly brighter tonality and compromise on a Bb [or a B??], and then figure out how to fit in with other instruments and their music. For me, its easier/better to play in the keys having the fewest #'s or b's, as my ?method? is to remember what the last #/ b was, and hope for no mistakes !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-04-04 20:43
Lucy -
If you've played a C clarinet, you know that it's brighter than the other woodwinds. The Bb clarinet matches the flute, oboe and bassoon better. See http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2004/01/000239.txt
Also, the C clarinet is harder to play in tune and harder to control. If you're not careful, it really shrieks on the high notes.
The clarinet overblows at the twelfth and so needs more keys than an oboe or flute, to make the six extra semitones. The extra keys are operated by the left thumb and index finger and the two little fingers. On the 5-key Mozart-era clarinet, there are note sequences that are very difficult -- for example, the first three notes of the E major scale starting on low E. Thus clarinetists could not play easily in extreme keys and needed several instruments in different keys to avoid the "you can't get there from here" passages. Mozart wrote for clarinets in many different pitches, including an instrument in B natural.
By Beethoven's time, the clarinet had 10 keys, and instruments in Bb and A (and occasionally C) were sufficient.
With the development of modern key systems, professional players have become comfortable, or at least fluent, in any key. However, even top professional players switch back and forth. See http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1998/03/001402.txt and http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1998/03/001413.txt
Ken Shaw
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-04-04 21:01
Also, the C clarinet is harder to play in tune and harder to control. If you're not careful, it really shrieks on the high notes.
I do not entirely agree with that statement. With the same logic, an Eefer would be impossible to control, or an A or Alto clarinet should be very forgiving. I agree that it is different.
--
Ben
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-04-04 21:19
Ben, I just got thru a session with my alto, and yes, its almost as "forgiving" as an alto sax re: pitch and expression, and the lower tones are great sounding. To me, its a fine, ?jazz? inst. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-04-05 07:08
"BUT, is that only because they see Bb or Eb much more often than A# & D#?"
No. You are talking about the notes, but others were talking about the keys (scales).
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-04-05 08:53
> Why wind bands gravitated toward flat key transposing instruments I don't know ...
On clarinet, the easiest major scales for fingering are C, F and G.
But now consider the predicament of the cornet player, who (I am told) finds C# the hardest note to play in tune. The 'easy' scales are then those which avoid C# and Db - i.e., anything between 3b and 1#. So in general, pieces for brass band, written by brass players, have lots of flats in the written parts. As cornet is pitched in Bb, this means that in concert pitch, brass bands /almost always/ play in flat keys.
How did this come about? (and what do those of us with perfect pitch and synaesthesia think about it, I wonder?)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-04-05 09:49
"Here's my question: Why don't we learn in concert keys? Imagine that a beginner is playing a Bb clarinet - when they learn throat Bb, they learn the fingering we use now, they just call it Ab. When their music (set in concert pitch) shows an Ab on the 2nd space, they play the pinch Bb that we play now. Wouldn't that make score reading easier, and everything more efficient?"
Some instruments use this system, for example tubas. The system used for clarinets makes everything much easier to the players. If the Bb would be concert pitch, then to play other clarinets (A, Eb, C, even bass with what would be octave transposition) and keep them all concert pitch the players would have to learn a different fingering system for each of them. It's much easier to simply write the notes transposed so the player can have just one fingering system for all instruments.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-04-05 13:58
There is also a "system" of teaching music to those playing baritone horns that (instead of naming the notes at their "actual pitch" on the instrument) teaches the player to read the note at concert pitch, and finger the Bb (for example) but call it C. This was done by the British Army (I think), and was explained in the Forsyth book titled Orchestration.
While it would work for one instrument in a specialized situation (where people are being trained to fill a specific instrument slot due to demand), it would (as mentioned above) lead to chaos where the standard training methods have been in place for nigh on two centuries.
Like most other ideas for the 'rationalization' of music, it only make sense in theory and not in fact.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-04-06 00:26
Clarnibass -
The clarinet was invented long after the other woodwinds, probably because it required extra keys to bridge the gap of a twelfth between the registers. When it was introduced, it was played, at least initially, by other wind players. An oboist had enough to do playing a different type of reed, without having to learn all new fingerings. For a Bb clarinet, it was easier to transpose the music than force the player to play fingerings that, on the oboe, would be a step higher.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2007-04-06 06:49
Ken- thanks for your link and explanation. One small point to add regarding A clarinets playing D major music in the classical period- when Mozart wrote pieces in D major in his operas he usually (perhaps always) used C clarinets, rather than A clarinets. This probably has to do with the character of the D major pieces, often marches, for which the colour of the C clarinets is particularly appropriate.
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Author: ned
Date: 2007-04-06 07:33
''Here's my question: Why don't we learn in concert keys?''
Of course in jazz, we all call our notes by concert name - clarinet, trumpet, trombone, saxophone of any size, bass, and of course, any chord player - we all know exactly what the other players are doing.
Makes the whole thing a LOT easier.
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Author: claclaws
Date: 2007-04-06 13:09
Thank you Ken, and all other members, for your interesting and insightful comments.
Lucy Lee Jang
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2007-04-06 13:19
It is interesting that virtuoso jazz players play on Bb horns in any key, even the remote/difficult ones.
It seems like much harmonically complex music (let's say Berg-Schoenberg etc.) also calls for the Bb (discounting eefer parts etc.)...
www.johnmcgann.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-06 13:33
Berg and Schoenberg used tone rows (12-tone or serialism), so it doesn't matter what pitch the instrument is in provided the exact concert pitch note is played at the right time.
The scores of Berg, Webern, Stockhausen and Schoenberg I remember were all written out in concert pitch - though the parts would be in the correct transposition for the instruments used that aren't pitched in concert pitch (alto and tenor sax, clarinet, bass clarinet, piccolo, etc.) so the effect is understood by the conductor and can be seen (though I doubt if anyone would notice if someone miscounted or mispitched their notes).
If you like that sort of thing - 'squeaky gate' music does nothing for me - it might be clever stuff but it goes right over my head - I like a good melody, and one that I can remember.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2007-04-06 13:34
"It is interesting that virtuoso jazz players play on Bb horns in any key, even the remote/difficult ones."
That's because they're virtuosi! They also play in any key on Eb alto saxes and Eb baris and on trombones. That said, even virtuosi like to play in flat keys, concert Eb, Bb, F, being favorites.
When an alto sax player plays a tune in concert G he plays it in E. For concert C he plays in A. For concert D he plays in B. Fortunately not many standards are written in D, a few bossa novas is all. Guitar players love D. It lays well.
B.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-06 13:41
Trombones like concert D as well. They don't like concert G for some reason - ask a trombone player to play a G major scale, all legato.
I'm glad most big band music I've seen is in concert F.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: claclaws
Date: 2007-04-06 13:49
Ken,
Sorry to ask this perhaps very stupid question:
"The clarinet overblows at the twelfth..."
What does this mean? I get from the context than the clarinet lacks the
keys compared to flute and oboe, but I have to confess I don't understand what 'overblow at the twelfth' means. :(
Lucy Lee Jang
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-06 13:59
Flutes, oboes, bassoons and saxes will overblow an octave from the low register when overblown or the 8ve key is pressed, and follow the natural harmonic series of 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 etc.
All clarinets will overblow a 12th (an 8ve plus a 5th) when the speaker key is opened due to the stopped pipe principle (pan pipes do the same thing). Clarinets miss out the even numbered harmonics when they overblow, so they follow the sequence 1,3,5,7,9,11 etc.
So following the natural harmonic series (flute, oboe, etc.), say C is the fundamental note (1). The next note in the harmonic series above this (2) is an octave giving C an 8ve higher. The next note (3) is a 5th above this (G), the next note (4) is C a 4th higher (and two 8ves higher than the fundamental), the next note (5, an E) is a major 3rd higher, the next note (6, a G) is a minor 3rd higher, the next note (7, a Bb) is a slightly flat major 2nd above, and the next note in the sequence (8, a C) is now three 8ves above the fundamental.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-04-06 14:01)
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Author: Mark Charette ★2017
Date: 2007-04-06 14:05
Chris P wrote:
> Clarinets miss out the even numbered
> harmonics when they overblow, so they follow the sequence
> 1,3,5,7,9,11 etc.
Not quite. The even numbered harmonics are there, and audible, but are at a diminished volume vis-a-vis an instrument that overblows the octave. See http://hughes38.som.ohio-state.edu/spectra.htm for a picture of the harmonics.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-04-06 14:09
"Fortunately not many standards are written in D"
That's true for some people I guess but many jazz wind (and other) players don't necessarily play standards. Some play music that doesn't have a key so you play whatever notes that fit at the moment, regardless of key. Not only that but I've seen tunes by some more standard-style sax players and they had the more difficult keys a lot too, or many key changes that make the original key almost irelevent.
"If you like that sort of thing - 'squeaky gate' music does nothing for me - it might be clever stuff but it goes right over my head - I like a good melody, and one that I can remember."
Some music that would be considered 'squeaky gate' by many is imo just as melodic as any music with a melody. It's down to understanding the specifics in the music itself rather than the "genre" / "style" and in some 'squeaky gate' music the principals, logic, sense, melody, are just the same as any good music (though might be much harder to hear at first), while some non-squeaky gate music can be very bad.
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2007-04-06 14:11
If you're a clarinet player you know that if you play a low (written) E in the low register (E below middle C), and then open the register key, you go up to the B above middle C. From that E to that B is an octave plus a perfect fifth, or a musical interval of a twelfth. Likewise all the other notes in the low register are a twelfth below the correspondingly-fingered note in the clarino register. This is what "overblowing at the twelfth" means.
If you do the analogous thing on a flute, oboe, bassoon, or saxophone, you find the second register notes are an octave above the first register notes, not a twelfth. They "overblow at the octave".
The reason for this has to do with the physics of a vibrating column of air inside a pipe. A conical pipe has its second mode of vibration an octave higher than its first; so does a cylindrical pipe open at both ends. The third mode is a twelfth higher than the first. But a cylindrical pipe closed at one end lacks that octave mode, so its second mode is a twelfth higher than its first.
Another difference is that the first vibrational mode of a closed (at one end) cylindrical pipe is an octave lower than that of an open (at both ends) cylinder or a conical pipe.
A clarinet is not a perfect cylinder, but behaves pretty much like a closed cylindrical pipe. So it overblows at the twelfth, and its lowest note is an octave lower than that of a flute, sax, or oboe of the same (effective) length.
One implication of overblowing at the twelfth is a large range: from the bottom of the first register to the top of the second is three octaves less a third, while on a flute it's just over two octaves. But another is that there are 19 notes in the bottom register versus about 14 on a flute. This means there need to be more tone holes in a clarinet, and more keys to operate them, hence more complicated fingerings. And clarinetists have to learn to assign different note names to the same fingering in different registers -- low register E is second register B, etc.; on a flute low register E is high register E.
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2007-04-06 14:14
Mark, that's true, but not relevant: the even harmonics are present in the tone produced by the clarinet, but the even-multiple frequency vibrational modes of the air column are not present, at least not in any stable form. The distinction between the spectrum of the instrument's tone and the instrument's normal vibrational modes is important to keep in mind.
Post Edited (2007-04-06 14:18)
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Author: Mark Charette ★2017
Date: 2007-04-06 14:32
rsholmes wrote:
> Mark, that's true, but not relevant: the even harmonics are
> present in the tone produced by the clarinet, but the
> even-multiple frequency vibrational modes of the air column are
> not present, at least not in any stable form.
Ah, but the common description (such as presented by Chris) implies the harmonics are missing. As you rightly point out, the vibrational nodes on the octave are "missing" (an oversimplification to be sure, but making it essentially impossible to get the air column to vibrate at an even multiple) but the harmonics are not. Leaving all the even harmonics out of the tone would give us a semblance of a square wave, which is one of the not-so-pleasant timbres.
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2007-04-06 14:40
I have a set of parts to Shoenberg's Wind Quintet, the clarinet part is for A clarinet. Since the (concert pitch) score asks for low C# Schoenberg must've had in mind the A clarinet, although it would've been playable on a full-boehm Bb which were not uncommon back then.
Schoenberg's music offers many beautiful, memorable melodies, and ones that would be unlikely to appear in diatonic music. Webern, too -- the 2nd movement of the Concerto is achingly poignant and reminiscent of the 2nd movement of the 2nd Brandenburg. Unfortunately, their best music is not performed or recorded much, and then often not well. Ill-played Mozart is disappointing, ill-played Schoenberg is noise pollution.
*********************
I play full-boehm A clarinet because the top of the instrument's range is theoretical and the top notes are unbeautiful, while the bottom is inviolable and the bottom notes are charming. A full-boehm A gives me two good notes that a standard Bb cannot produce.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-06 14:52
"I play full-boehm A clarinet because the top of the instrument's range is theoretical and the top notes are unbeautiful, while the bottom is inviolable and the bottom notes are charming. A full-boehm A gives me two good notes that a standard Bb cannot produce."
How strange - by coincidence I've just been playing my full Boehm A (early Series 9) and it certainly has more warmth and resonance in it's tonal character than it's Bb (a late Series 9) counterpart.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-04-06 14:53)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-04-06 19:20
Other than the convenience and facility that the key work gives me, I chiefly enjoy playing the full Boehm horns because the middle of the staff B is of superior quality in tone/timbre compared to a standard clarinet which vents this note through the bell.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: conservatory_kid
Date: 2007-04-06 20:06
Those are all great questions. Why don't we read in A# or D#? Because it would be a bitch. I'd much rather deal with only two or three flats, thank you much. Why don't we read in concert pitch? The same reason French horns don't. Pitch is relative. If French horn's music was written the way it actually sounded there would be a billion ledger lines. Would it make conductor's lives easier? Oh certainly, but then they'd have more time to yell at us and that's not fun. So we like to throw them some extra curves. And you see it doesn't really matter anyway. Why are we talking about the merits of E# vs. F natural when we could be talking about something more interesting like oh say... is a diminished unison a vacuum?
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Author: claclaws
Date: 2007-04-07 03:26
This is the hardest music lesson I've ever had^^. I'm so shocked how ignorant I am.
Thank you, rshomes, for your step-by-step explanation. Now I feel more comfortable.
Still, I'll keep reading this thread and try to understand what others say.
Lucy Lee Jang
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-04-07 03:57
> *** "...and why is it Bb or Eb and not A# and D#, respectively?" *** <
....unless you want to reinvent a wheel there's no such thing as the key of A# or D#
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2007-04-07 04:14)
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2007-04-07 04:32
Vytas wrote:
> ....unless you want to reinvent a wheel there's no such thing
> as the key of A# or D#
Sure there is. No one uses them because in 12-equal temperament they're the same as Bb or Eb, but they exist -- and in, for instance, quarter comma meantone or Pythagorean tuning they'd be slightly displaced from Bb or Eb. You'd have to notate them with double sharps, e.g.:
A# B# Cx D# E# Fx Gx A#
I'd hate to have to read music in A# major... but there *is* such a thing.
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2007-04-07 16:28
" > *** "...and why is it Bb or Eb and not A# and D#, respectively?" *** <
....unless you want to reinvent a wheel there's no such thing as the key of A# or D#"
I think both do exist in 'the repertoire' as minor keys, I'm sure I've at least seen pieces in D# minor. Whether it's called D# minor or Eb minor is literally six of one or half-a-dozen of the other. I think I remember reading about some important composer saying that F# major / D# minor was 'musically' distinct from Gb major / Eb minor despite using exactly the same pitches.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-04-07 17:48
> *** "Sure there is. No one uses them because in 12-equal temperament they're the same as Bb or Eb, but they exist" *** <
Of course we can go crazy and create infinite series by stating that the circle/wheel of sharps doesn't stop at 7 sharps (C♯) nor 7 flats (C♭).
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-07 17:56
Or just keep it simple.
Simplicity is best.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-04-07 18:25
> *** "I think both do exist in 'the repertoire' as minor keys" *** <
"Why Bb" (clarinet)?
I thought we are taking about clarinets here. What's your point? Have you found a clarinet in the key of D# minor?
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2007-04-07 18:27
> Of course we can go crazy and create infinite series by stating that the
> circle/wheel of sharps doesn't stop at 7 sharps (C♯) nor 7 flats (C♭).
And in fact it doesn't -- in any temperament *except* 12-equal. A musician of Mozart's day would have been comfortable with the idea that A# and Bb are two different notes.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-04-11 12:22
> I think I remember reading about some important composer saying that F# major / D# minor was 'musically' distinct from Gb major / Eb minor despite using exactly the same pitches.
I'm sure I've played a modulation from F# to Gb... and that /I could hear the difference/. Crazy, I know. Think it might have been Walton.
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The Clarinet Pages
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