 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-03-25 01:25
Bill Crow, the legendary journeyman bass player and writer ("Jazz Anacdotes" and "From Birdland to Broadway") describes what it was like to play with Benny Goodman's band during the infamous Russian tour of 1962.
A long, but very interesting first hand account which tells, among other things, about Goodman's mistreatment of his fellow musicians (and vocalist).
http://www.billcrowbass.com/Writing/To%20Russia.htm
Thank you to Hans Jacobs for the link ...GBK
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Author: ned
Date: 2007-03-25 03:47
Interesting stuff - I'm about 1/3 of the way through already - talk about being a primadonna!
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2007-03-25 03:56
Interesting. The account here -- and many of the anecdotes -- matches that in the Goodman biography Swing, Swing, Swing. According to that book, Goodman had a chronic back problem, by then for 20-30 years which meant that he took a number of prescription medications for pain, including ones that do not mix well with alcohol. According to Firestone's account in Swing, Swing, Swing, Goodman had been trying to go to Russia for many years before he was approved, but at the time had significant "health" issues related to his back problems. Perhaps parts of his "eccentricity" that comes out in the stories of this tour were related to that issue if the Firestone account is accurate. George
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Author: Chalumeau Joe
Date: 2007-03-25 05:02
Fascinating article! I also recall reading that some of BG's siblings didn't care much for him, either (I believe this came out in an interview with his brother, Freddie, but can't put my finger on a reference for this).
BG's behavior seems beyond arrogant...his seeming delight in humiliating people practically borders on evil.
Not a GOODman at all!
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2007-03-25 05:07
A wise person once said never confuse the artist with the man.
jmsa
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-03-25 05:17
Chalumeau Joe wrote:
> I also recall reading that some of BG's siblings
> didn't care much for him, either (I believe this came
> out in an interview with his brother, Freddie, but can't
> put my finger on a reference for this).
You are probably thinking of the 1999 LA Weekly interview of Artie Shaw, where he says:
"...Benny was a superb technician, but he had a limited vocabulary. He never understood that there were more than a major, a minor and a diminished -- he just couldn't get with altered chords. We worked together for years in radio, and Benny was pretty dumb. His brother Freddy managed one of my last bands, and I once asked him what Benny was like as a kid. He said, "Stupid." I said, "How do you account for his success?" He said, "The clarinet was the only thing he knew," and it's true. He was sort of an idiot savant -- not quite idiot, but on the way. He didn't quite make it to idiocy..."
...GBK
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Author: Chalumeau Joe
Date: 2007-03-25 15:12
GBK: Correct! That's the reference.
JMSA: No confusion here...I can certainly distinguish between BG's artistry and his boorish behavior.
"Artistic temperament" may be indicative of bipolar disorder; curious if that's what BG had?
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Author: kenny1
Date: 2007-03-25 17:16
I saw an old friend in that article... my exwife.
Bipolar disorder is a relatively new discovery, but Benny's behavior in that article has 'my exwife' written all over it. Maybe if Benny was properly diagnosed, he would have done things differently. Also, mixing alcohol and drugs would really make his problem even worse.
jmsa is right... never confuse the artist and the man. I love Benny's playing, but I would not have apologized for his behavior like some have. I'm surprised that someone in his org did not try to take him aside and try to clean up his stageside image.
I wonder... did Benny ever play with Buddy Rich? The fighting would have probably been better than the playing.
Kenny1
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-03-25 18:42
A Velly Interesting discussion of B G ! At this moment, I cant find my B G "King ---" book, but did find "The Big Bands", George Simon, which has a ?1971? interview, B G Revisited, pg524. Several "leading questions" were asked about relations with a number of band members, etc, and B mentioned "I'm Moody" somewhat suugesting "problems" with perhaps most !! Also the "evil ray" was spoken of. Will read it all carefully. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-03-25 21:15
Kenny1,
Re: "Bipolar disorder is a relatively new discovery"... I guess that depends on what is meant by "relatively". When I was studying abnormal psychology in the 70s it was called manic-depressive psychosis, so that the name may be new but the definition of the disorder is not (very).
Regards,
Hans
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Author: kenny1
Date: 2007-03-25 21:58
You're right. I just think it's a shame that he didn't try to get some help for himself.
kenny1
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2007-03-27 02:09
The article mentions a duo by Copland. Does anyone have any info on this piece or could the author be thinking about Benny's Gig by Morton Gould?
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2007-03-27 02:53
I'm sure the author is thinking of Morton Gould's "Benny's Gig" (8 Duos for Clarinet and Double Bass).
Gould wrote this for the occasion of his close friend Benny Goodman's 1962 Russian Tour.
The movements are titled:
Slow and nostalgic
Brisk, with drive
Very slow and hesitant
Brisk
Slowly
Calypso Serenade
Lazily moving
Jaunty
It's published by Published by G. Schirmer, Inc.
It is a wonderfully fun piece for both the clarinetist and bassist to play, and is an "audience pleaser" as well. You can also program portions of the piece if you don't have time to play all 8 duos (even though it doesn't last that long).
Tom Piercy
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-03-27 18:11
One hears the legendary BG stories ad infinitum, and "the Ray" is quite well-known, especially one guesses, if they were the recipient of this slow malevolent look. He was a perfectionist on the stand, I have heard.
I did meet him, played his concerti with the Milwaukee Symphony prior to his arrival,(Debussy Rhapsody, Weber Concertino). I picked him up at the airport, him with his huge green felt hat, and it was the answer to a kids dream.
He talked black, called me "kid", asked if I played any Jazz, and had his picture taken with me and the second player. I attended his rehearsals with the pickup group. There was a pianist whom he didn't like at all. He hollered out to me in that empty Civic Auditorium, "Hey kid". When I got to where he was, he whispered into my ear, "kid, where can I get another pianist?" I didn't know, so he went on with her, after asking her not to try to play like Teddy Wilson, and further with "a little peppuh, honey!".
That is mostly not very nice, however he treated me respectfully, tried my horns, and asked me to listen to the balance of a concert he was playing with Rachel,his daughter at the Gardener Museum in Boston, a benefit for Fontainebleau. That rehearsal in itself, was thrilling. The only pieces I remember were the Martinu Sonatine and the Poulenc Sonata.
The stories abound, however what happened when I met Benny will always remain with me. He was a nice guy, the best of clarinetists, and a very particular musician.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2007-03-29 14:48
Author: kenny1 (---.applwi.tds.net - ISP in Oshkosh, WI United States)
Date: 2007-03-25 17:16
I wonder... did Benny ever play with Buddy Rich?
Kenny1
=====
Yes. Very early in Rich's career. I believe that Buddy Rich was one of the first drummers in the Goodman band after Gene Krupa left and played with Goodman while Rich was in his late teens and early 20s. Rich also recorded "independent" dates with Teddy Wilson and Lionel Hampton during the same era.
George
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-03-29 22:04
Lucky you Sherm.
I find it hard to even suspect, much less believe, that BG had bipolar disorder or anything like it. He came up the hard way which doesn't make one easy to get along with. What matters is what he did for the clarinet and music in general.
Bob Draznik
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Author: kenny1
Date: 2007-03-30 02:51
Not to mention that he was one of the first if not the first bandleader to have
an 'integrated' band, and hired greats like Charlie Christian - the first 'guitar hero'.
Kenny1
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2007-04-01 05:16
"When I was studying abnormal psychology in the 70s it was called manic-depressive psychosis, so that the name may be new but the definition of the disorder is not..."
Manic-depression is not a psychosis. It is a mood or affective disorder. Big difference!
B.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2007-04-01 05:26
BG was so into clarinet that even his wife got on his tail to relax more. The story goes that she told him one day, "Benny, sweetheart, all you do is play that clarinet morning, noon, and night, Look at Harry next door. He has a hobby. He does woodwork. Why don't you take up something like that?"
So benny walked across the lawn to his neighbor's wood shop and sat there watching Harry schlepping huge planks around that he could hardly lift.
"What'aya making?" sez Benny.
"Ugh! It's gonna be a (heave!) picnic table."
Benny sat for a while in silence, then said,
"Why don't you make a clarinet?"
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-04-01 14:26
I just finished reading the article. There's no doubt that BG was an egomaniac and an ugly personality, but this was a hatchet job -- every inconsiderate thing BG did or said, no matter how trivial, with just enough about what else went on to hold the nasty stuff together.
Ken Shaw
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Author: kenny1
Date: 2007-04-01 22:41
I've been thinking about this for awhile -
I may not be a Bennybot, but I do believe that what the world needs is a proper serious biography of BG, not one of those 'unauthorized biographies' like the one on Sinatra. You know the kind.
I read all the BG stories I can find, and even though his behavior in most accounts did somewhat sound like my 'bipolar' exwife, I cannot really believe the man was seriously all that bad. So the man was somewhat obsessive... who isn't?
All I know is... his music makes me want to play.
kenny1
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Author: BTBob
Date: 2007-04-02 17:37
BobD wrote:
"He came up the hard way which doesn't make one easy to get along with. What matters is what he did for the clarinet and music in general."
Coming up the hard way doesn't make you hard to get along with, any more than it makes you easy.
It's all about your personal values and where your head's at. Some are more tuned into people ands relationships, some more tuned into tasks and responsbilities.
A few do it all well. They're the ones you want on your team, or to be on theirs.
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2007-04-03 00:39
Another BG story to add to the pot.
As a college sophomore in 1963 I was privileged (and lucky) to play in and receive the associated college scholarship with the Amarillo (Texas) Symphony Orchestra. Lo and behold, but the ASO managed to book Benny as a a guest artist......playing two "serious" orchestral works, followed by a second half with his jazz quartet. Goodman arrived for dress rehearsal the night before, and immediately "threw a shoe" about the quality of the orchestra. A. Clyde Roller, conductor, refused to let Goodman "conduct and rehearse" the orchestra, and we ended up scuttling one of the programmed pieces, playing only the Weber Concertino (which I remember BG totally butchering).
Being a young and impressionable clarinet major I immediately sought out the "King of Swing" to introduce myself, and hopefully receive words of encouragement about clarinet playing from "the best". Never in my life have I been treated so rudely by someone I thought would be the epitome of clarinet playing. Maybe he was having a bad day. Maybe he had gout. Maybe his tarot cards fell off the table. Who knows? His total indifference to my questions and introduction were pure rudeness.
So.......how nice it is in later years (60+) to meet players like Eddie Daniels, Steve Girko, Paul Greene, ad infinitum, and "connect" on a purely clarinet level. These gentlemen, make that GENTLEMEN, know what it's like to have the passion and committment to our instrument, and are unfailingly courteous and encouraging.
Oh yeah, the King of Swing will live in the history books Unfortunately I won't have a favorite chapter to read. Whenever the "Benny Goodman Story" shows up on TV I promptly switch channels. It's my opinion (worth exactly what you paid for it) that Benny Goodman swindled America for lots of years.
Tailwinds,
Lynn McLarty
Austin, TX
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-04-03 01:08
Bruno,
Re: "Manic-depression is not a psychosis. It is a mood or affective disorder. Big difference!" ... you might want to let James N. Butcher at the University of Minnesota know about the error in his textbook entitled "abnormal psychology".
Butcher says that in psychotic depressions the patient loses contact with reality and can develop delusions and hallucinations. I had a friend like that, and in the manic state, he was dangerous to be around; e,g., he once shot a rifle indoors. Fortunately he didn't play the clarinet.
Hans
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2007-04-04 02:01
Bruno,
Re: "Manic-depression is not a psychosis. It is a mood or affective disorder. Big difference!" ... you might want to let James N. Butcher at the University of Minnesota know about the error in his textbook entitled "abnormal psychology".
Butcher says that in psychotic depressions the patient loses contact with reality and can develop delusions and hallucinations. I had a friend like that, and in the manic state, he was dangerous to be around; e,g., he once shot a rifle indoors. Fortunately he didn't play the clarinet.
Hans
~~~~~~~~~~
Hans:
You have to read more carefully. J.N. Butcher speaks of "psychotic depression", not manic depressive disorder. Again, a big difference!
Bruno
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-04-04 04:41
After reading that whole article, my eyes are so used to the teal background color of that page that this white box here looks red!
As stated above, another example of the artist vs. man. There are plenty of EXTREMELY fine musicians out there - but that doesn't mean they are people you'd love to be around for any amount of time. In some rare cases, you find people that are both extremely talented AND are great people; just always remember to respect them for it and to not lose touch.
CA
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