 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-01 16:28
Does a player's own tone have an influence on how well the instrument they play sounds and responds?
What I mean is, will a player's sound somehow become part of the make-up of the instrument they play in that their tone has somehow physically altered the tone their instrument has? Does the cellular or metallurgic structure of the instrument get affected by the player's tone?
I've noticed with some B&H 1010 and Buffet clarinets owned by what I consider to be great players that these instruments sound and play much better than ones (of the same model) that have been played by average players, though all have been well maintained.
Several years ago I compared a Selmer SA80II alto owned by a prominent UK saxophonist with a new SA80II which had been set-up, and the one owned by the player in question without doubt played itself when I tried it, and even I could get near their tone on this one, whereas the new one didn't yield a tone anywhere near it.
So with this in mind, should I lend my clarinets and saxes to prominent players so they can influence the tone the instrument has (provided they look after them!)?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-04-01 16:45
Chris P wrote:
> Does a player's own tone have an influence on how well the
> instrument they play sounds and responds?
You need to separate cause and causation.
Your hypothesis:
The player affects the instrument.
Opposite hypothesis:
The instrument affects the player.
Adjunct hypothesis:
The player selects the instrument that allows him/her to perform to the best of their capabilities and continues to refine the instrument.
Considering ther supposition that a fine player selects a fine instrument, sit back and rate the hypotheses on "common sense" probability. Not that common sense is always right, but ...
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2007-04-01 18:09
How about this question. How many of you think you sound different on your different clarinets? Does this mean you sound like someone different or that you sound like yourself, only different? When one is trying different instruments, mouthpieces, etc., I think one sounds like oneself but certainly not exactly the same.
Chris P wrote: >Does a player's own tone have an influence on how well the instrument they play sounds and responds?
What I mean is, will a player's sound somehow become part of the make-up of the instrument they play in that their tone has somehow physically altered the tone their instrument has?<
I don't think the player's sound affects the instrument itself so much as the way the player plays it affects how the instrument sounds. In the best cases there is a relationship, a symbiosis that develops between the player and their instrument, which is more in line with Mark C's adjunct hypothesis. Is there some sort of "ring" leftover from that relationship when someone else picks up the horn? Only in the mind of the player, but that may be enough. One could experiment with instruments when one doesn't know exactly which horn the master player played, but there are too many other variables.
Barb
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-04-01 18:32
1. Whereas an accomplished clarinettist plays a certain horn. and
2. Whereas after said clarinettist sells horn, it has a nice sound,
3. Therefore nice sound is result of having been "broken in" by an accomplished clarinettist.
Sounds like a nice logical deductive sequence, however it falls victim to the logic trap of POST HOC, ERGO PROPTER HOC (After this, therefore caused by this) reasoning. The basic flaw in such reasoning is the fallacious premise that a cause & effect relationship can be deduced from the chronological relationship between two events.
Unfortunately that form of reasoning is one of the most common means employed by people to establish causal relationships resulting in untold numbers of problems in all aspects of life . . . but then, on the other hand, it is one of the foundation stones that keeps soap operas propped up.
Eu
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2007-04-01 22:07
I feel like I sound the same on my Leblanc and Buffet clarients. Others tell me I sound completely different, and when I listen to recordings, there's a world of difference.
I think 'prominent players' pick out a good instrument to begin with.
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Author: FDF
Date: 2007-04-01 22:27
I think that the imprint of a person is left upon their tools, their clothes, their life. The way a person uses an instrument will reflect their touch or even their breath. Several posts on this board have mentioned the effect of air on a column, wear on a mouthpiece or barrell, etc., to ignore the daily practice of fingering the instrument in your own unique way or breathing and releasing a column of air would be very short sighted, in my opinion.
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2007-04-01 22:51
FDF wrote:
> I think that the imprint of a person is left upon their tools,
> their clothes, their life. The way a person uses an instrument
> will reflect their touch or even their breath.
Well, you won't get any argument from me about that. It is interesting, though, that I don't think there is any way to measure how much of this is physical and how much is due to the memories and experiences of those who are interacting with the object, either the person who used the tool to begin with or the others who come along after. I experience the presence of my grandfather the baker whenever I bake a pie in his pie tins, but what would have happened had I not wanted them and someone else got them at a thrift store? They would see the physical marks where Grandpa cut his pies for decades but would not know the stories behind those marks. Chris P's example is interesting because he knows the origin of the instrument he is handling. That is more like my pie tins.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-04-02 03:43
Why do you think that Artie Shaw's clarinet sold for Gigabucks last year?
In a similar vein, I find that towing my race boat backwards on the trailer irritates the devil out of it, so it unwinds and goes really fast once liberated.
Last Wed, I heard Daniel Cotter play in a Prokoiev quintet. He swabbed backwards: from bell to barrel while his compatriots patiently waited for his ablutions between movements. The result: fabulous --evidently, the compression of the noise up toward the mouthpiece is a really effective way to add incredible fullness to one's tone. I'm planning to get swabbing lessons from him at CLARINexus on the EWU campus next Saturday.
Bob Phillips
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-04-02 16:26
was this an April Fools question ?
I have a shop leblanc Classic II. it's has a great setup, great intonation, etc. - can really fly over the keys. But it was simply missing something. So I raised the bottom cups (lowered the cork height on the side spatula keys), then all of a sudden the clarinet had this extra "ring" to the tone. Wow.
was it setup up properly before - Yes.
is it still setup properly but better - yes
BUT, one setup could work for one person and not another. Gorilla hands (heavy crushing) can make most saxes work, whereas someone with a light touch can't even play them. I've repaired recent overhauls that simply didn't work for ppl in one sense or another. The setup all depends upon how diligently it was setup.
Since it's Chris P, I'm pretty sure with the SA80II example that the latter one wasn't set up with the proper amount of superglue.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-02 16:51
Nah, I never use superglue on saxes!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-04-02 18:07
stevesklar wrote: "BUT, one setup could work for one person and not another. Gorilla hands (heavy crushing) can make most saxes work, whereas someone with a light touch can't even play them. I've repaired recent overhauls that simply didn't work for ppl in one sense or another. The setup all depends upon how diligently it was setup."
Exactly right! I have a friend, a tenor sax player with whom I've played in various jazz and R&B bands for years, who has a very light touch on the keys. In contrast, I have "gorilla hands". He occasionally brings me his horn to work on, and I have the hardest time getting it right for him. It plays great for me, but he says the notes don't speak! He likes the springs to have the absolute minimum of tension, and that makes it very difficult so get the horn working properly, especially on keys such as the G# which have the dreaded opposing-springs design. Also, his ultra-light finger pressure means that every pad must be PERFECTLY level and all pads have to hit at exactly the same time.
Whenever he knocks on my door with horn in hand, I cringe, knowing it will take me hours to tweak the horn to his satisfaction, and since he's a friend (and a barely-surviving full-time performer) I won't take a dime from him.
A bit off-topic, my apologies. On the other hand, the topic itself is so nebulous that I'm not sure what I'm straying from.......
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2007-04-02 18:19
If you're asking whether a player influences what his clarinet sounds like and if a good player has his own sound or tone, the answer has to be a resounding YES. All you have to do is listen to Artie Shaw, whose 'silvery' tone was famous the world over, or Buddy DeFranco, whose wonderful icy sound is instantly recognizable. Or for that matter, Stan Getz, of whom John Coltrane said, "He gets the sound everybody wants to have -- but can't."
B.
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2007-04-02 18:53
I have very good tone. (Can't play well, but get many comments on my "great tone".)
Please send me all your R-13s, Rossi's, and top of the line Selmers and Leblancs to "improve".
John
Post Edited (2007-04-03 00:29)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-04-02 20:05
"On the other hand, the topic itself is so nebulous that I'm not sure what I'm straying from......."
It's just the result of pure idle thought - I shouldn't let my mind stray while I'm working.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-04-03 00:47
what were you saying Chris - David ?? err .. were you writing ??
I also have a very light touch on the keys on sax and clarinet. and everything has to be perfect. As to the opposing G# springs .. yup .. has to be set perfectly, and the little rocker has to be in the correct position and all ... quite a picky mechanism.
btw, I sound different on my different clarinets - Selmer CT, Leblanc LL & Classic ... well .. the list goes on. But i love the tone from the SML and Classic (surprisingly). I used a different mpc on the CT as I do the LL and others too.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
Post Edited (2007-04-03 00:52)
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2007-04-11 22:38
Hey, I thought everyone swabbed from bell to barrel (to avoid pulling the upper joint moisture through the whole instrument).
I saw a video of the NY Phil. once where Drucker swabbed out about 3 times during the performance. But I can't remember at which end he began!
If that's what it takes to play as well as ol' Stan, I don't mind swabbing out a hundred times a day...an hour...a....
Clarinet Redux
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2007-04-12 00:30
"So with this in mind, should I lend my clarinets and saxes to prominent players so they can influence the tone the instrument has (provided they look after them!)?"
No. A person does not change the way an instrument plays. In the hands of an accomplished player, it will sound quite good (if it is in good working condition). In the hands of a bad player, it will sound bad.
Here is the only way I can approach your hypothesis at all. An expert player is very picky about his instruments. So if you go to a high level professional who has decided, for whatever reason, to move on to another instrument, you can safely assume that his older instrument is also excellent. Buying that instrument would be a safe bet. Some instruments play better than others, even if they are the same make and model. A trained professional can detect these differences easier than an amateur.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-04-12 14:29
Here's one other consideration nobody's mentioned yet. Maybe the explanation is simply that a professional takes much, much greater pains to acquire a PERFECT instrument, and has much higher criteria than most people.
I studied for a while with a top bass clarinetist who, while in the market for a new horn, not only tried dozens of basses (and think how much persistence it takes to FIND dozens of basses to try!), but had friends in other cities who were equally skilled bassists trying out local horns for him as well. I imagine what he ended up buying sounded miles better than a box-stock bass, just through an infinitely picky process of selection across a huge (relatively) sample of instruments.
Conversely, when I bought my R-13 Bb, I felt incredibly indulgent having WW/BW send me THREE horns to try out. I picked the best of the trio, and love it, but still...
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Author: energia eolica
Date: 2007-04-12 15:25
How is this thread even still active?? A player doesn't influence the instrument they play on at all.
Yes, the better players usually pick out better instruments.
End of story.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-04-12 15:37
This has actually been a theory of sorts that has been around for some time. Years ago I was studying with a very prominent player, whose playing is top notch and whose opinion I respect very much. He told me "If you ever buy a used horn, make sure you buy it from a good player who has a great sound" When I inquired as to the reason, He continued, "Otherwise, the vibrations will be all out of whack because the molecules get all out of alignment and the horn will be all screwed up" I looked at him and could tell that he was dead serious.
I have spoken to others about this and have heard of others with this theory.
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Author: William
Date: 2007-04-12 15:57
I gonna run right out and find me some of Bill Gates pants. They must really feel good..................
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-04-12 15:59
I have heard about this from a violinist I knew. I didn't believe it till it happened to me in a lesson. My teacher took my (cheap) clarinet and played it. It sounded bad for a bit, then it started to open up. When I was given it back, I sounded a lot better- very close to my teacher.
I think especially with respect to the way an instrument vibrates there may be some truth to it. We all agree that the instrument DOES vibrate, right? It is not unimaginable that an instrument vibrating in such-and-such a way could become more incline to vibrate that way in the future. It is probably more significant with metals (sax, cymbals) than with wood.
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Author: energia eolica
Date: 2007-04-12 16:50
Ed and Skygardener,
Not to go all Dan Leeson on you all, but would you care to enlighten us as to what physical changes the instrument would go through in such a process? How does it change and how do those changes result in an improved tone?
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-04-12 17:50
"I've noticed with some B&H 1010 and Buffet clarinets owned by what I consider to be great players that these instruments sound and play much better than ones (of the same model) that have been played by average players, though all have been well maintained."
I'd have to comment that Pro players are much more particular on the way an instrument is setup. They may know for an instance that it used to sound "this way", now it sounds "that way" and know that something must have changed in the setup (bad pad, etc) You can give a 99% fixed up clarinet to most people and they will go "wow". But I picky pro wants 100% of something and that little extra may take another hour+++ to get it. As my example up above of my Classic II. It went from a great playing clarinet to a super-great playing clarinet all simply due to the extra ring in the tone I was able to coax out of it from pad height.
But can one person alter the way an instrument sounds by simply playing it for a few seconds? I'd have to inspect the instrument before and after and also confirm the player did not alter their, for example, reed being bent more, embouchure (location on reed and everything else) or even their perspective of the tonal quality. And how do you do that ??
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-04-12 21:07
My 2 cents.
Physically, I sincerely doubt that the instrument changes from player to player. Every object on the planet has it's "natural frequency" in which in vibrates the most. I'm no scientist but I think this only changes with changes in mass, which I doubt differs when played by different players.
I think it's largely due to the fact that good players are more picky with their instruments, as many have stated above.
I would contribute the mental game of playing to the whole subject. When you have some famous player's instrument in your hands, you KNOW deep down that this is the very clarinet that someone has sounded like complete heaven on. There is no equipment-related excuse for you not to sound incredible. This relaxes us and lets us just naturally play as well as we are able.
Another thing is that since we've usually heard the previous player's sound, we know what the instrument was selected for by that player. If you know that the player sounded a certain way, you can bet that the intrument he/she chose amplifies that quality. You probably just naturally tend towards that great quality that you're so used to listening to (to an extent!)
Overall, I'd say it's a neat thing to think about but nothing that should be taken to serious investigation like it'll "help" you.
CA
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-04-13 00:33
this is one of thoes things that you don't believe until you see it.
another example. I once got a 'new' used R13 and brought it into my teacher- differant person than the above example. It had been cleaned and most pads changed. I asked her to play it; after a few scales, she said, 'feels like it hasn't been used in a while.' It had been sitting in a closet for over 10 years before I got it. How did my teacher know?
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-04-13 01:12
pivots not lubed .. dusty a tad here and there, there are alot of visual and mechanical cues to an instrument that has been laying around for long periods of time
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Author: energia eolica
Date: 2007-04-13 02:43
Skygardener, that last anecdote had absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. It doesn't establish any means by which an instrument can be changed by the person playing it. An instrument sitting around is an entirely different scenario, and detecting that doesn't mean anything.
The fact that you're willing to believe it does, combined with the previous story, makes me that much more certain it's all in your head.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-04-13 03:12
If I don't drive my car for a month or two and then I start it up, I can tell that it hasn't been driven for a while. After a couple of minutes all is humming again just fine. There's solid reasons for that.
Magic doesn't need to be involved. But if you want to believe in magic and it works for you, that's just dandy. Just don't get upset when other people tell you it's only selight of hand and not "real" magic. The end result is the same.
It's like arguing about religion. There's no end to it ...
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-04-13 03:15
Investing an inanimate instrument with qualities or quality which can influence simply doesn't work because the most important component is left out.
These are pieces of wood and metal or carbon fibres or even rubber and sometimes other substances, and that is all there is . Nothing else.
They sit in their cases and wait for players to pick them up and play on them. This is when music becomes present. The performers are not influenced by their instruments, never. It is the other way around.
When a musician performs really well, perhaps the finest compliment he or she can receive is that "it was as if you became the instrument and one only was conscious of the music". When I play really well, it means that I am bringing the music to the listener. That it happens to be a clarinet is only the conveyance of the music. If I receive that ultimate compliment it means that I have done my job well.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2007-04-13 04:30
skygardener,
When we play clarinet,clarinet body vibrates too ,but it's not what makes sound on clarinet.
As a matter of fact,even if you stop the body vibration completely(which is,of course impossible in reality),you wouldn't notice much difference in sound.
Violin is another story.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-04-13 08:14
'Violin is another story'
Why?
BtW- feeling that an instrument hasn't been played is not off topic. (I didn't tell my teacher that it had been in a closit; she couldn't have known.) It shows a connection between the response of a thing and the kinds/amount of vibrations going into it. If 'no playing' gives one sound then 'playing well' will give another and 'playing poorly' another. Think of a cymbal- ask a percussionist, new and old cymbals sound different. Playing it changes the sound.
And to answer your next question- no! It's not the only factor- nor is it irriversable- nor is it even a major factor or even one that could be heard by the audience. BUT the player can feel it.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-04-13 08:56
"Think of a cymbal- ask a percussionist, new and old cymbals sound different. Playing it changes the sound."
That's like seeing a cow and hear it say "moooo" and then claim all four legged animals also say "moooo".
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-04-13 09:37
cymbals - this can go back to material, manufacturing process, finisihing process etc. that varies throughout the years. I've seen enough arguments about "materials do/don't make a difference" to just say some ppl think one way, others another way.
why do ppl prefer Buffets from the late 60s to early 70s. Or on saxes, Selmer SBAs and mk VIs, or all older pre 1990s instruments vs modern made ones .....
and let's not forget about tonal concepts, which may change/improve over time as you hear other people. You may hear "more" of something just from someone helping you recognize it.
i'd also just have to say to be careful of the psychological aspect of someone playing and instrument, or a teacher telling you that you have improved and to keep at it. I know I tell students that from time to time - they get a big smile on their face and practice more and improve.
Just use it in relation to cow tipping vs turtle tipping. The cows may go moo, but the turtles dont, and they both have four legs.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-04-13 11:11
"No, it has no relation to your tangent cow example."
It does. The point was that you gave an example of symbals (cows) to prove a point about clarinets (hmm... cats?), just because they are both musical instrument (four legged animals), ignoring all the facts that make this example meaningless (differnet animals).
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-04-13 11:35
Boys and girls - as I said, people who believe in magic will not be convinced even when they see how the magician did it ("but that magician uses real magic!").
Don't waste your time arguing (I could put in an apropos aphorism but I'll restrain myself, espeially seeing that this thread started on April Fool's Day).
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-04-13 18:08
Mark, "There is no end to it"......That's the point of the bulletin board. There is no end to the discussions. That doesn't mean that the discussions are fruitless. Points of view are given and we have the opportunity to look at different perspectives.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2007-04-13 18:26
I heard of a study on NPR (not conducted by them, they just reported on it) where people flipped pennies and recorded heads or tails. Out of a hundred tries, it was about even usually. But if the person flipping the coins was told to want, say, heads, they would end up with more heads. And it was too common and too profound to count merely as chance. Imagine 40,000 Red Sox fans all wishing together for David Ortiz to hit one out to win the game. Of course it happens on its own, but if you get 40,000 people all willing the ball to go just a little farther, it might just work.
So for the instrument molding itself to the player, I say why not? I don't think it's quite as quick as 10 minutes on the instrument, but ones that have been used for years will certainly pick up traits of the player.
-Andy Cabrera
a.l.cabrera@gmail.com
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Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2007-04-13 19:26
This was a more recent piece (around February this year), but since I can't find it, I lose. Stupid google let me down...
-Andy Cabrera
a.l.cabrera@gmail.com
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