 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-03-30 02:25
I was test playing tonight, going through Mozart concerto K622 and doing, for lack of better words, diaphragm tonguing. In which I never use my tongue to stop or start notes but simply my diaphragm.
I only do this in odd practices and find it really usefull when I want really light attacks or endings to notes. I can play staccato, etc - though not as stacatto as using the tongue.
Do other people use this technique for regular playing? Teach it ? or use it much ?
or .. is it taught anywhere ?
Thanks
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2007-03-30 06:50
Early clarinet tutors (Roeser and Fröhlich) refer to "chest articulation", so this method has been around for a long time!
I don't believe that the tongue needs to be used to start every note. Subtle differences in attack and decay bring out much character in music. Whatever technique works for you to achieve the sounds you want is the correct one.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-03-30 07:08
Is this the same as "cough" tongueing? (Like closing your throat as if in preparation of a soft cough?)
I use it occasionally for soft staccatos.
--
Ben
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2007-03-30 07:14
I believe it refers to starting the sound just with the air, without using the tongue, as if saying "Ha". I think what you're referring to is called a "glottle-stop"? Another interesting technique!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-30 12:05
The problem with this articulation is that it can be noisy - there's usually an audiable 'grunt' at the beginning of the note, and in the upper register it's very noticeable.
Though there are some instances where starting a note without attack is useful, if this kind of articulation can be done without any presence of the 'grunt', then even better still.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-30 12:39
The grunt comes from the larynx if this kind of articulation isn't done well - if the epiglottis is used to stop or start the air, nothing to do with the voicing of the note.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-03-30 13:03
It's the only way I know to do staccato. This is one of the major downfalls of not studying with a teacher. This and proper breathing is hard (impossible?) to learn without guidance.
I can't imagine using the tip of the tongue on the reed! I don't know how people do it! Always sounds like a scratchy record, all that hiss and crackle. Wish I could learn it.
Bill.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2007-03-30 13:13
Aaah, Chris I thought you were referring to starting the notes with just the air. I can imagine a grunt coming from the glottle-stop technique, but haven't really tried it so I can't say if it's possible to do without the grunt.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2007-03-30 13:17
OK- I just got my clarinet out and tried starting a note with the little 'cough' that Ben was talking about. It is possible to do it without a grunt, as long as the little cough is very gentle. At this stage the results for me are vastly inferior to what I am able to do with the tongue and/or air. But hey, I've only been practising this technique for 1 minute!
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-03-30 13:32
" . . . the little 'cough' that Ben was talking about."
I don't think the glottal stop is supposed to be the explosive type, such as a cough, but rather one closer to the glottal stop as used in the division of syllables in a word such as "ohoh" or the even more gentle glottal stop used in most Polynesian languages which require all vowels to be voiced individually (no dipthongs). Eu
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-30 14:19
Glottal stops are used in the English language as well - especially in the UK where we use them when some of us tend to drop our 'T's.
In the North East (such as Tyneside) they even start some words beginning with T with a glottal stop instead.
But down here on the South Coast it's common for us commoners to drop our 'T's and 'H's, and soften the final 'L's so they sound more like 'W's.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-03-30 15:36
That's correct, I start and end notes with just the air column - no use of the tongue at all. And not a 'cough' at all either. like licorique said - chest articulation, or for me, the diaphragm plays a large part.
I've used this method for ages, though not really only this method but only where I saw an advantage in the notes articulate or soft release. But I frequently will practice something using only this method. I'll record myself playing something both tonguing and this method.
I've always used it but never taught it. I can't recall where, when or how I picked it up but i would guess also playing brass in my youth - or UM days.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2007-03-30 16:50
I've been very aware of this for the past week since reading on this forum that it was some sort of "no-no". (I think the writer called it "guh" articulation.) Since then I've been trying to break myself of the habit every time I practice. I think I'll relax. I tend to use the tongue for accented notes, stacatto, and starting off loud passages but the "diaphragm" technique works well in most cases. I always thought this was some sort of bad habit I developed after I started playing saxophone.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-30 21:53
My sax teacher used an American tutor book which taught 'hoo-ing' the notes as well as tongueing.
I found out from a German colleague the pronunciation of the German clarinet maker Hueyng is 'hoo-ing' - I wouldn't have worked that one out for myself.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-30 23:47
How do you play groups of staccato semiquavers at 130+bpm without tongueing them?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: catina
Date: 2007-03-31 02:42
I have a student who can only tongue this way and it sounds terrible! (She is, of course, 10 years old, so her playing certainly isn't stellar yet). I have been working with her since November and absolutely CANNOT get her to tongue on the reed. (I even tried soaking her reed in mouthwash and having her "taste" the reed). I fear that my trying so hard to get her to tongue is dampening her spirits and causing us to lose time that we could be using on other aspects of playing.
So my question is: should I give up on trying to get her to tongue and just focus on refining her throat tonguing? And if yes, how would I go about doing that?
Catina
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-03-31 02:51
"How do you play groups of staccato semiquavers at 130+bpm without tongueing them?"
Very quickly ??
okay ... smart answer .... ;-)
I've been able to do fast stacatto. It's kinda like an opera singer who uses their diaphragm to sing fast notes. I'll need to pay more attention - as I've said I practice it but don't really use it in regular settings. I wil say though that I cannot get really short stacatto, but I guess practice would make perfect
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-03-31 15:09
Liquorice,
maybe I wasn't entirely clear - I don't do that to start a new note but rather to interrupt one, eg when you have a 1/1 followed by a number soft-staccatoed 1/16 notes. The reed probably won't stop oscillating but the sudden lack of air makes the staccato, and no grunt is heard when resuming normal technique.
My tongue's kinda heavy and I often get a thwap! in soft and fast passages.
--
Ben
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