 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Meri
Date: 2000-06-13 20:44
OK, we've talked about our best music teachers. How about talking about bad clarinet teachers we know about, who are completely illogical, has their priorities really mixed up, who exploit talented students, etc.?
Meri
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Author: Nicole Y.
Date: 2000-06-14 00:49
My present soon to be ex band director. He put my friend and I down for joining the Youth Orchestra. He badmouthed us behind our backs. All while he smiled at us everyday and said we played wonderfully when we asked for his opinion of our playing! Then of course when we only made alternate to regionals, he said it was all our fault. Then he demoted me in the band...but newayz. He's out. And even though he badmouths the new band director, I LIKE the new band director. The new band director says we're going to PLAY during class and that there is going to be discipline! His record is fabulous! Never made excellents- everything is superiors! Finally! I know that it's going to be hard work, but I'm ready!
Rising Soph,
Nicole
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Author: Laur
Date: 2000-06-14 03:05
Is there such a thing as a bad teacher ? Or just one that is indifferent.. No matter what kind of teacher there you have.. you will learn from them. I have had had teachers who put me down, made me look bad, and badmouthed me till no end.. but thoes are the teachers that made me strong.. I have had some that were phenomial, the most thoughtful, wonderful people -who made me the person I am today.. I've had some that got throught to me.. who made me belive that I am talened .. that I am a good musician, a good person.. some who at the end of a rough day, held me and said.. it's going to be allright.. while i had others, who called me a showoff, and a brat because I knew my musical piece, and I aced my audition.. After getting my Nyssma score - i had one teacher look me straight in the eye and say "I'm really dissapointed Laurie " and another, give me a hug, and said " I'm really proud of you".. so in return there are no good teachers.. there are no bad teacher.. it's what you make of them.. It's what you take out of the situtation.
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Author: Pat
Date: 2000-06-14 03:43
The only way you can find out if a instructor is bad is to experience it for yourself. The way you work with the instructor and how he/she works around you is the key to a student teacher relationship. One of my clarinet teachers had high ranking postition in a major symphony orchestra, and I did not learn new things until half way into my second semester at my community college. Now at the conservatory I go to, I have learned many things from my current teacher. Although this man has helped me out in many ways, a girl dropped him as a teacher and moved on to another because they did not mesh at all. The only way a person can rate any kind of instructor is to experience it on thier own and have something to compare it to.
Pat
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Author: Kim L
Date: 2000-06-14 03:44
Well, there is a such a thing as a bad teacher, a teacher who doesn't want to teach, and a professional.
Bad teachers, well tend to be bad teachers! And teachers who don't want to teach and are unenthusiastic, well...
A professional musician can't really teach. I wouldn't say they are bad, though. Because of my professional teacher who can't teach, I am now better than ever! I wouldn't say she is bad, she just can't teach. If you've been playing in orchestras you're whole life, then how do you know how to teach students?
I think this topic should be reconsidered! There is never a bad teacher. Sometimes just personality conflicts that make a good teacher look bad. Other clarinet majors hate my clarinet teacher. I don't like some of her techniques, but what can I say?
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Author: Willie
Date: 2000-06-14 04:24
I think it depends on the situation and if the teacher is teaching wrong procedures or discouraging students from progressing. In one of the neighboring towns, several students were taking private lessons at the Community College in another town. The instructors all tried to get these kids to play in the community band there for more playing time, plus the music was more challenging. The band director absolutely forbid it. My band director encouraged me (back when they still made Studebakers), to try out for the Houston all City Youth Orchestra. When I made it, he was obviously very pleased and encouraged me even further. I owe him a lot.
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Author: Rob
Date: 2000-06-14 07:30
The worst teacher I had was when I was 10 years old. He was a drunk with a steel plate in his head (I am not kidding) and he had no business teaching anyone to take out the trash, much less clarinet. I don't know what kind of teacher he COULD have been, but he was a thoroughly miserable human being and probably should not have been around impressionable children. Thank goodness I was already completely jaded by then or it might have really put me off music.
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Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-06-14 17:44
I don't think I've ever had a teacher (of any subject) who was all good or all bad. They've all been human. I find some types of flaws easier to take than others. Rob, I empathize with the comments about the drunk. The orchestra conductor my senior year in high school was a "maintenance alcoholic." I never saw him totally smashed, but he stashed a bottle of Jack Daniels in his desk drawer in the bandroom office and drank just enough to keep himself "tight" all the time. Yet, despite his drinking and his mean temper, he did know how to teach music. He improved my playing and improved the orchestra. I think of him as the wreck of what could have been a very fine teacher, if he'd ever managed to get that addiction under control. Most of the "bad" teachers I've known had something to offer -- the trick was figuring out what it was and how to get it. With that teacher, a student had to ignore the ugly behavior (there was nothing we could do to change it -- he had to want to get sober, and he didn't want to) and stick closely to the subject of music -- value him for what he *could* do, not waste energy on worrying about what he couldn't do, and make sure his problem didn't turn into our problem (i.e., if he'd ever offered me a ride, which he didn't, I would have said I needed the exercise and walked, rather than ride with a pickled driver). Sometimes I think I learned the most from the least-perfect teachers, because they forced me to think harder about the learning process.
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Author: Sara
Date: 2000-06-15 03:00
I left my reg. teacher over the summer last year, who was and is the princlple at the local university, and a darn good teacher too, to try this teacher that teaches all the all state kids and miss perfects from school. Well needless to say she is not someone I would recommend to a friend. She was constantly mean and had way too high expectaions. At one point near the end of her carrer as my teacher I was playing some hard rythems and I just couldn't get my fingers to do it and she slapped my leg with exasperation and started yelling so I grabbed my case and left her to her madness of yelling and took the rest of the summer off. Well not completly i practice at least ten minutes a day. And another thing she makes all her students try out for region bands and extra stuff without really giving them a choice, I know some students who go try out b/c she makes the and if they don't make a certian chair she really cracks down on them during lessons.Yet for some reason this woman is well respected in the state of SC.
Sara
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-06-15 13:22
Sara wrote:
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That's not all that atypical of coaches, especially in collegiate sports. Screaming, yelling, can sometimes get the job done (ask a basketball team what goes on in the locker room during halftime). Now, I'm not saying that this is the correct method for teaching music - but another question is: does this (abusive) method get the long-term intended results? If so - is there something that can be gained by studying the method and finding out what part works? Perhaps this method can work for teaching motor control/technique - knuckle rapping with a ruler has a long history in piano teaching ... Perhaps it is only suited for those with a burning desire to become the best they possibly can be, at least physically.
I'm not condoning the method (I don't know what the results are, or whether it justifies the means), just giving you a little food for thought.
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Author: Sara
Date: 2000-06-16 03:20
Well Mark, I see where your coming from but this past year under the instruction of my current teacher noe the yelly one, I manage to take her students first chair in All-state by I think .3 of a point. While her methods of teaching get instant results from her long term students, I guess you just have to be able to work with their personallity or live with it. But I tend to go with the thing about why I should pay somebody to make me start to hate something that I love to do? I will admit yelling sometimes yields great results like in the instance of our marching band we slack off the slightest bit and he jumps down our throats and we instantly shape up.
Sara
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-06-16 07:09
The worst case is a general practitioner,who graduated from college leaning music pedagogy major, without knowing clarinet playing meticulous details - in playing, this is the most important thing -with 'good'(they think like that themselves) intention. This is the most difficult one to deal with.
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Author: Allen Cole
Date: 2000-06-16 19:45
Sara,
The teacher that you describe may be respected because of the very reason you went to her--that her students achieve results.
Let me defend one particular practice. You say that she makes students audition for All-District and 'other extra stuff' whether they want to or not. One of my colleagues in this area has such a policy, and it is zero-tolerance. Be there or get a new teacher. I plan to do likewise this fall.
Why? First and foremost, most clarinetists are in school band environments where they play in large sections and are never heard by the audience as individuals. For this reason, most never develop any real skill as musicians and are actually unable to function outside of the school band environment. After school, they put their horns away for good. Many can be quite stubborn as private students, trying to eschew important basics in favor of obsessing over chair challenges, and other short-term matters. Sitting in a section with 5 other people on the same part, they don't really learn to take personal responsibility for that part. They often become prisoners of their own 'comfort zone' and resist overcoming bad habits that are 'easier for me.' Knowing nothing of real-world playing, they often come to a teacher saying that they 'already know what I need.'
I require my students to attend All-District auditions for several reasons:
1 - It is a fair competetion in which everyone is ranked. If a student doesn't really want to know where they stand, you have to wonder why they're taking private lessons.
2 - These events function as a convention for talented players from all over the area. Students who want to play music need to cultivate friendships among musicians. What better place to do this, than an all-day event where the best players are present and have time to socialize?
3 - Auditioning is a skill within itself that must be practiced. When the time comes to try out for something really important to you, it really helps to have some experience under your belt.
4 - The ultimate test of any musician is the pleasing of the listener. Contest judges are a good start, and they're much more forgiving than the average person. To succeed even as an amateur musician, you have to take personal responsibiity for engaging the listener. School band musicians are rarely tested as individuals in this area. This is one reason why so many unschooled musicians end up surpassing even the best band students with 7 years of credit classes under their belt. All-District auditions can supply my students with a dose of reality while Solo & Ensemble Festival is still 3 months away...
Remember that as a student, your experiences are limited. Your teacher has most likely graduated a college music program, and possibly the rigors or professional playing as well. She knows what the bottom line is, and she also knows whether you're meeting it.
Consider this also. Your performance, like it or not, is also essential to her reputation. Didn't you go to see her because her students make All-State? If she wants to maintain that reputation she eventually has to get you to do the job or drop you.
Okay. This essentially applies to the forced audition issue, but I think that you can see some reasons here for some of the other issues.
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Author: Kim L
Date: 2000-06-16 20:43
As for yelling, if the student(s) don't want to work(not making any criticisms), then the teacher will yell. The first year I came into my university, I hated my band director. He always yelled at us! Honestly, we were terrible! We didn't practice and weren't as good as he wanted us to be. We deserved to get yelled at, in a way.
My sophomore year, last year, he was more relaxed, and we never got yelled at. The band was willing to work, and we were really good. Sometimes the band director, or teacher is mean because of how much they expect, or they're mean because that's one of their personality traits.
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Author: Sara
Date: 2000-06-17 03:21
I see where your coming for- i did come to her because of her reputation,but about my teacher having graduated-nope he'll be a junior this year but his playing is excellent-to me he seems to be the child prodigy-but that just from one of his students point of view- of course I would think that. But i know he does play with the orchestra in charlotte-one of the top chairs I think. But to me he's ten times the teacher of the other one.
Sara
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Author: Sara
Date: 2000-06-17 03:21
I see where your coming from- I did come to her because of her reputation,but about my teacher having graduated-nope he'll be a junior this year but his playing is excellent-to me he seems to be the child prodigy-but that just from one of his students point of view- of course I would think that. But i know he does play with the orchestra in charlotte-one of the top chairs I think. But to me he's ten times the teacher of the other one.
Sara
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Author: Allen Cole
Date: 2000-06-17 06:52
This is an important quandry for teachers. We want to be liked and laugh with our students, but I find myself in many cases being a surrogate therapist or big brother. I guess that's okay if it helps the student somehow, but it's accomplishment and self-confidence that they need in the long run--and that their parents are paying me to guide them to.
I will confess that I have a distaste for shouting at students, but what I have to say in a calmer voice must still be just as stern. Sometimes, I think that shouting would make it sink in better.
One final comment. Don't let any teacher get you down. Learn what you can from them and keep striving for your goals. The long range goals belong to you and you alone. Just keep your mind open to some shorter range goals that a teacher might impose in order to help you get there.
Allen
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Author: Laur
Date: 2000-06-18 02:12
One final comment. Don't let any teacher get you down. >>
Allen,
I agree with your whole statement.. My band director is like you said - "a surrogate therapist or big brother" to me. -I don't know what I'll do without him.. He listens, offeres advice, and just cares.. And it makes a difference. Because of him, I have gained soo much self confidence,sence of accomplishmen, and determination.. that it's unbelievable..
I disagree with you though, when you tell us "not to let any teacher get you down".. From a student point of view.. That's the hardest thing in the world.. Literally. Last week... I got my Nyssma score back. I ended up getting an Outstanding rating.. with is the highest, most prestigious rank.. Not many people get it etc. I got a point taken off for rythem in my sight-reading. My band director saw it.. gave me a hug, and said i'm soo proud of you -that's wonderful.. I was soo excited to tell my private teacher about it. I though he would be proud of me, happy that I did well-I mean, i was terrified about doing a solo.. but I did it. Soo.. I went to lessons, and I told my teacher. and he looked the paper, and said "Laur, I'm soo disappointed in you .. we worked soo hard on that rythem, how could you get it wrong" Tell me now.. How am I not supposed to let that get to me ? I'm not close with my private teacher. We don't really get along, i don't agree half his methods, yet I'm sticking with him, cause he's a good teacher, and I have improved. But.. When you trust someone.. look up to them .. really take what a person says to heart. How can you not let what they say get you down ?
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Author: Sara
Date: 2000-06-18 03:10
Well I agree with you-but why do you pay someone to sit with you one-on-one probably once a week to teach you something you love, if you don't even like the person? I mean I can understand trying to stick with someone who has a great reputation, b/c I tried that. But why now find someone whos equally likable and a good player who won't bring you down? The whole point is to enjoy it. But I agree with the teachers comments get to you, without you wanted them.
Sara
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-06-18 13:10
Every teacher will use different methods to get results. A great teacher will observe his/her students and tailor the approach to each student to get the most out of each one.
However there are some bad teachers out there. These are the ones who seem to have the goal of destroying a student's self esteem. While I have been fortunate not to have had such an instructor, I took lessons from a woman who had had such a person in college. Twenty years later (when I knew her) she still lacked confidence in her playing even though she was a truly fine player.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2000-06-20 18:20
Allen Cole wrote:
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Sara,
The teacher that you describe may be respected because of the very reason you went to her--that her students achieve results.
Let me defend one particular practice. You say that she makes students audition for All-District and 'other extra stuff' whether they want to or not. One of my colleagues in this area has such a policy, and it is zero-tolerance. Be there or get a new teacher. I plan to do likewise this fall.
Comment: Some people want to become good players, but don't necessarily want to compete against others in the process. It's a rat-race, and not everyone should do it, especially if they don't want to. Glenn Gould said that music competions are where people fight like gladiators and are graded like eggs.
Why? First and foremost, most clarinetists are in school band environments where they play in large sections and are never heard by the audience as individuals. For this reason, most never develop any real skill as musicians and are actually unable to function outside of the school band environment. After school, they put their horns away for good. Many can be quite stubborn as private students, trying to eschew important basics in favor of obsessing over chair challenges, and other short-term matters. Sitting in a section with 5 other people on the same part, they don't really learn to take personal responsibility for that part. They often become prisoners of their own 'comfort zone' and resist overcoming bad habits that are 'easier for me.' Knowing nothing of real-world playing, they often come to a teacher saying that they 'already know what I need.'
Comment: I generally agree. However, the problem is really that a lot of students in school music programs can't count rhythms, so they depend on others. Not only that, but school music teachers don't usually make sure all their students have a strong sense of rhythm. But most do not bother going to a teacher, or hate it if pushed.
I require my students to attend All-District auditions for several reasons:
1 - It is a fair competetion in which everyone is ranked. If a student doesn't really want to know where they stand, you have to wonder why they're taking private lessons.
Comment: Music competitions are not that fair. Anything can influence you or the judges on a given day, making you better or worse on a given day. And just because someone doesn't want to know where they stand does not mean they don't know why they are taking private lessons--each of us has different goals when taking lessons, some to prepare for college music programs, some to improve technique, etc.
2 - These events function as a convention for talented players from all over the area. Students who want to play music need to cultivate friendships among musicians. What better place to do this, than an all-day event where the best players are present and have time to socialize?
Comment: This is a false argument. Musicians don't cultivate friendships in competitions, and often don't socialize (if they do, with others they know). Where have you made most of your musical friends? Probably not competitions.
3 - Auditioning is a skill within itself that must be practiced. When the time comes to try out for something really important to you, it really helps to have some experience under your belt.
Comment: True--but too many auditions can take away from the things that are really important to an individual.
4 - The ultimate test of any musician is the pleasing of the listener. Contest judges are a good start, and they're much more forgiving than the average person. To succeed even as an amateur musician, you have to take personal responsibiity for engaging the listener. School band musicians are rarely tested as individuals in this area. This is one reason why so many unschooled musicians end up surpassing even the best band students with 7 years of credit classes under their belt. All-District auditions can supply my students with a dose of reality while Solo & Ensemble Festival is still 3 months away...
Comment: Pleasing the listener and performance do not necessarily have to do anything with competion. Pieces used for competition are not usually what the audience really wants. (see Are Clarinetists the Audience? in The Clarinet, September 1999 I think)
Remember that as a student, your experiences are limited. Your teacher has most likely graduated a college music program, and possibly the rigors or professional playing as well. She knows what the bottom line is, and she also knows whether you're meeting it.
Consider this also. Your performance, like it or not, is also essential to her reputation. Didn't you go to see her because her students make All-State? If she wants to maintain that reputation she eventually has to get you to do the job or drop you.
Comment: Student's experiences are limited. But that is often because they don't know how to search for opportunities. Also, I wouldn't go to a particular teacher just because their students can make high-level solo competions. You have your own goals, and if she doesn't respect them and attempts to force you into her own goals that you don't want, then find a new teacher.
Okay. This essentially applies to the forced audition issue, but I think that you can see some reasons here for some of the other issues.
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Author: Allen Cole
Date: 2000-06-22 08:57
Thanks for your email. I didn't realize that the thread was still active. I'll try to give you a general reply now. If you want to go point by point, I'll try to sit down and work with the quoting function in the next couple of days.
I'll confine this response to two points.
Forced activities vs. students' personal goals:
Money is largely wasted on private instruction if the teacher 'respects' the student's imprisonment in his/her comfort zone and doesn't try to stretch them. In addition to All-District auditions each year, I 'force' students to learn and memorize basic scale skills, play a little by ear and to do work (primarily on rhythms) in the Master Theory Workbook. I'm sure that if I made these things optional, many would decide to opt out. After all, they do have the option of hiding out in their section.
On Auditions or Competitions as places to make friends:
A number of my closest friends are those with whom I competed for seats at the school, county, district and state level. I have been playing professionally since 1982 with one of my clarinet competitors from All-State in 1977. He and I competed for seats all through college. My best friend since 7th grade was my closest competitor all through high school.
Further, MY students are generally friendly and helpful. My top tenor sax player helped out one guy a couple of years ago to the point where the helper was first chair and the helped was second. The same player the next year struck up a friendship with the number 2 guy only to find out that his new friend also played piano. Eddie needed a keyboard player in his rock band, and his ice-breaking attitude brought a great payoff. This has to be learned somewhere. 'Forced' audition participation is the only way that I know to promote it.
I'm sorry that you have had poor experiences in this area as a student. I don't, however, see where it qualifies you to declare my reasoning to be 'false.' All of my top students are gracious and generous competitors, and they learned it at All-District for the most part. It might not be so if they didn't have these experiences under a teacher's care.
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Author: Allen Cole
Date: 2000-06-22 09:35
Sorry to take so long, Laur. Your message said "To Sara" and I skipped over it in a hurry to get to Meri.
I don't know enough details about what you had there with your Nyssa score. I'm not sure why a teacher would be disappointed in a superior rating, but you say that you trust him.
As for being a 'big brother' situation, that's all great but I have to remember that parents are paying around $60 per month. That's a lot of $$$ for a weekly half-hour pep talk, and it's generally my weaker students, not my stronger ones that make the most use of this. Why? Because the stronger ones are getting self-esteem from their ACCOMPLISHMENT.
Maybe your teacher feels that you need to work harder. I have a couple of highly talented students who succumb to nervousness. That can only be fought with preparation.
Since you're able to confide in your band director, talk to him about the situation and see what he says. He knows you and your playing, and he may know your private teacher as well.
But once again, let me warn you against fretting. It's a waste of time and a drainer of self-esteem. Stay focused on your goals instead.
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