 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mark Horne
Date: 2007-03-22 06:20
About a year ago, I resumed playing bass clarinet after a long absence and have made good progress, but I continue to be vexed by a problem with the clarion high C (2 lines above the staff) - I can't play it on attack. I can easily slur up to it from lower notes, but if I have to start on the high C or tongue the note in succession, it doesn't happen. Actually the difficulties begin around the G below (where the attack is slow, or it wants to overblow to the altissimo) and notes are progressively more difficult to attack leading up to the C. Attacking the altissimo C# above it (and beyond) aren't a problem.
Here's my set up: I'm using a brand new Yamaha 221 II Bass Clarinet. I use a Vandoren B44 mouthpiece as well as a Fobes Debut and the Yamaha 4C piece that came with the horn. Ligature is a Vandoren Optima and Rovner Dark 3RL (and the generic metal lig from Yamaha). I've tried reeds ranging from Vandoren 1.5 thru 3.5, rico royal 3.5, Marcia 2.5, and legere among others. I think I've tried most every combination of mpc, lig and reed on the Yamaha horn. I also tried some of these components on a Vito 7168 and a WWBW house-brand low-C bass. In all cases I can slur up to a high C with good tone and control. As for attacking the high C, the best I can get is a note that is painfully slow to develop - not musically useful at all.
Even though I don't consider myself much of a soprano player, I can attack the high C on the soprano without difficulty. I'm wondering if there's a set-up issue with the horn (or all 3 that I've played), or an optimal mpc/lig/reed combination for this problem range. Maybe I just need more practice(!).
I know there are a number of BC players on the board - what's your experience been?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-03-22 06:33
Do you have a teacher who is a good bass clarinetist? First have him/her, (or if you don't have one, a good bass clarinetist) try your instrument and mouthpiece. That will tell you imediately if it's a setup problem.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-03-22 11:52
First, check to make sure the register key mechanism is properly adjusted. If the lower key is leaking even a microscopic amount, it will kill the response. Also check the seating of the pads near the top of the upper joint, down through the thumb and left index finger keys.
Take off the upper register key and run a damp pipe cleaner through the vent to clean out any crud.
Try pressing the register key halfway down, so the upper vent doesn't open as far. If this works better, as it sometimes does, you'll need to adjust the entire mechanism to compensate. Try the other way too. Play first-line F and reach up with your right hand and open the key on the neck all the way.
A year or two back, one of our experimenters on the board made new neck vents in half a dozen sizes, one of which solved this problem. I can't find the string, but if you're serious about it, and other things don't work, this could be the way to go.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-03-23 09:58
"A year or two back, one of our experimenters on the board made new neck vents in half a dozen sizes, one of which solved this problem. I can't find the string, but if you're serious about it, and other things don't work, this could be the way to go."
It was me. The thread is in the keepers forum (though there are many more specifics that I didn't write even in the very long posts there). When you say "solved this problem" it's not correct. It solved a completely different problem. Also it wasn't one of the sizes that solved the problem, but rather each size had its own compromises. Different size vent could help other problems than the one I had, but if the B is ok and the C is not, it is unlikely that it is a problem with vent size.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-03-23 13:25
I've had infrequent problems with my Selmer 30's high C, dont find many in our comm. band music [its in the domain of the sop cls !] . Since my "high B" plays well and my reg. keys work OK, I attribute any C [and F] difficulties to my NOT having a good thumb/1 st finger "pinch" to seat the pad firmly. I often place my 1 st F on a no-key area so as to have more pinch. Also, playing soft reeds, if I have much upper-clarion playing, I'll go up to a 2 1/2 or 3 reed [no fire, please]. Also having to open the reg. key via thumb does distract from thumb pressure. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: BYUone
Date: 2007-03-23 21:46
I've experienced the Thumb Reg key not fully open as one way to kill the upper clarion "C." Additionally, my teacher has worked with me to loosen my embrasure in the upper clarion register, i.e, no direct pressure on the reed from the lower jaw, and very light pressure on the mouthpiece from the teeth of the upper jaw. Maintain a tight seal and put more of the mouthpiece in than you would with the soprano.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-03-23 21:55
I have much the same problem on my Bundy BC which I attributed to the cheap student instrument's goofy "choose one" register vent opening mechanism. Actually mine messes up on the A . . . up through the G plays fine, but I can only slur to A, B, or C. I cannot attack them. Eu
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Author: Mark Horne
Date: 2007-03-25 23:36
Ken - thanks for the insightful suggestions on checking and experimenting with the register key opening and pad sealing high on the upper joint. I went through the steps you recommended but unfortunately couldn't get much of an improvement.
Don - I agree that the T-R high C presents additional problems because of the lack of a good pinch grip. Up to this point I had not tried putting my left index finger on a non-key area as you suggested. I did find that, when using harder reeds, I could get some slight improvement on the attacked note when supporting the horn with my left index on a non-key area. This gives me an additional aid as I try to improve my technique.
Having looked at the other comments and historical threads, it looks like the upper clarion is an ongoing challenge with bass clarinets - or at least the student models. I will keep practicing this range to see if I can be more musical in those (fairly uncommon) passages that go there. Meanwhile, I wonder if the professional model BC's have successfully addressed this range so that it is easier to play there. . . .
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Author: shadowing
Date: 2007-03-26 04:00
Here are some of my experiences as a current amateur bass clarinet player in high school.
I was actually facing this issue as the honor band music I had to play required the high C above the staff.
I was and still am using the school's Artley bass clarinet (plastic), Vandoren B46 mouthpiece, and Vandoren 3 reeds. In addition, I puff my cheeks out.
The key to this problem is honestly... practice.
Here is my tale on how I finally could play these high notes: Slur from the high G above the staff to high C and hold it. Release it once out of breath. Repeat this process. After a while of doing this, it gets easier to play the upper clarion.
After I kept on doing this, I can tell you that I can FINALLY play the upper clarion with consistency.
A lot of the other respected posters have said it can be the bass clarinet. I agree... it can be, but you honestly don't know until you practice. I thought it was the bass clarinet until I started practicing a bit more.
Just my $0.02.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-03-26 06:13
"I wonder if the professional model BC's have successfully addressed this range so that it is easier to play there"
I only played the professional bass clarinets from Yamaha and Leblanc for a minute, so I don't remember anything about them. From the many Buffet and Selmer professional models I've played, I could easily play all the notes (the Buffet improved after I enlarged the neck register hole, though it had nothing to do with attacking notes but a completely differnet issue). So it seems they solved the problem, but I'm not sure there really is a problem, because the student models I've played (Vito, Orsi, Yamaha) were in such bad condition it was impossible to judge them objectively.
I still think you should let a good bass clarinetist try your instrument (and mouthpiece too maybe). That will tell you in a second if the instrument has a problem or not.
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