 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: blazian
Date: 2007-03-15 01:13
What's the difference between the Bassett horn and the alto clarinet? I see the obvious like extra keys and such, but what is the point of both existing?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-03-15 02:33
Hi Blazian - In general terms, the basset horn is a smaller bore instrument than the alto, is longer because of the extra [low] keys to reach low C, is pitched in the key of F and ?usually? played with a soprano Bb [or perhaps slightly-larger] mouthpiece. It is believed that the combination of all of these factors is what produces it's characteristic tone-color, quite different from that of the usual alto [in Eb] , even from my smaller bore Selmer alto, with which I try to sound like a basset horn, without much success. Because the two are only one note diff. , B H music can be played [transposed] on an alto EXCEPT for that distinctive Low C. We have discussed these things many times so I suggest you Search our archives for further and differing info. from some of our proud B H owners. There is not a lot of music, except for Mozart's, for it, and not much more for alto except for concert band where I enjoy playing my alto. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Detru Cofidin
Date: 2007-03-15 03:08
depends on if you'retalking about the basset horn, or the basset clarinet. There is a difference. Mozart wrote for both. THere isn't much use for these instruments, as there isn't much use for the alto, besides in bands.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-03-15 06:31
I tried two basset horns - one very old Buffet, and one very new Buffet. I tried a few alto clarinets - a new Selmer, an old Leblanc and an old Pedler. The basset horns sound a bit more like a soprano clarinet, and the alto sound a bit more like bass clarinet, except the Selmer alto which actually sounded a little more like a soprano. The old and new Buffet bassets also were very different from each other.
Re: Music for these instruments - Detru Cofidin is right in most cases, if you play in an orchestra, or play only classical music, or only "normal" jazz (for example big band or "regualr" combo). For these I think at least 90% of the time (or even more) you won't have a use for a basset or alto. But if you make your own music, or have music written for you based on the instruments you play, then you will play these instruments much more.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2007-03-15 12:09
I own a LeBlanc bassret bhorn and a LeBlanc alto and play with the same Hawkins alto mouthpiece on both. The bassett horn definitely has more resistance in playing, even with that mouthpiece, and the sound is more cloaked or veiled than the alto. The alto sounds brighter and bigger if the same passage is played. Sort of like the difference betwen tea with lemon and tea with cream, both are good, but different. The basett is much easier on the highest notes and it's relatively easy to get even a good high C on bassett, maybe even easier than on the Bb. That does give you an impressive range of 4 octaves.
Actually i've been surprised at how much bassett horn music is available. Luyben's has a very good selection, from some of the clasic pieces up to some more modern ones. Some of them are just great pieces too, although i think in a few cases the composer is using the extremely low basett notes as more of a gimic than for good music.
Solo music for the alto is more limited. Heim wrote a very interesting concerto for it that highlights the instrument and there's another from a series of pieces that highlights each member of the clarinet section (name escapes me at the moment) that is nice too, and much easier than the Heim piece. Again Luyben's has a fair selection of interesting alto solos, although most are transcribed from other instruments.
Eefer guy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-15 12:48
Basset horns are more socially acceptable than alto clarinets. Mention 'alto clarinet' in polite society and notice how the whole room suddenly goes quiet, the music stops, ladies faint, a wine glass breaks and everyone glares at you before the stewards brutally escort you out the door and set the rottweilers loose to make sure you're off the property.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-03-15 12:58
> socially acceptable
LOL!
But - It's not an Alto. It's a Black Sax. Kinda.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-15 13:03
Mention 'sax' in polite society and you'll be shipped off to the colonies or the salt mines!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-03-15 13:53
Well done, Vunderbahr, Chris, "off on a tear" this AM [for us] ? Yup, I've been on a crusade to improve the acceptability of our poor alto cl, however "sax[ophone]" even misspelled with an e is much better to discuss. One of the best demonstrations of the Basset Horn's tonality-range [IMHO] is in the Serenade for 13 Winds, K ???, by Moes-Art, I'll try to find the ?German? group's CD of it, which I copied from our FM classic station's playing on my request! I have music for some of M's duets-trios for or including B H's which I'd love to play. To distinguish the Basset Clarinet [in A] from the B H, just play one othe many fine pro CD's of the Concerto and/or Quintet by M. As Brymer said "Its just the Best", Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2007-03-15 14:13
The difference is about a few thousand dollars and some snob appeal : )
Owning a basset horn could be fun, when you can located a couple other basset horn owners and get a chance to play together, then you will have some repertoire of basset horn trios to at least have some fun with. Otherwise like already mentioned you aren't going to get a lot of chance to play even in orchestras.
Alto? = band, clarinet choir, some clarinet quartet music, that's about it.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-03-15 14:13
On clarinet professor, in a televised recital referred to the alto as "not an instrument of music, but an instrument of torture!"
Bob Phillips
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-15 14:26
I think the general rule of thumb is F instruments are considered orchestral (as all the 'horns' are in F - cor anglais, 'French' horn and our basset horn) and Eb are considered band instruments (to go with the brass that are mostly pitched in Bb and Eb) - this was Sax's envision of saxophones, having a set tuned to F and C with narrow bores for orchestral use and Eb and Bb with large bores for bands. Though the Eb and Bb saxes have won the day over their F and C counterparts as they're used in orchestral writing.
So somewhere along the way, the alto clarinet has been put into the unpopular group and gets treated with the same contempt the viola and tenor horn tend to get from other players of related instruments. I don't know if the social stigma was due to rumours over time of them associated with being played by the least skilled or musical players, but somehow it seems to have stuck - and there's not a huge amount documented about alto clarinets in referrence books.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-03-15 15:20
But I could easily play an Alto Sax part on my Darth Tone, or do the ranges differ?
--
Ben
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Author: larryb
Date: 2007-03-15 15:44
While the literature for basset horn is relatively limited, it is by no means insignificant. It ranges from quite a few decent/mundane 18th Century solo pieces (with piano, string group or orchestra) by such non-luminaries as: Backofen, Rolla, Druschetzky to some of the most sublime music ever written. In particular:
Mozart's Requiem, Gran Partita, Notturni, and Divertimenti.
In addition, Richard Strauss wrote a lot of music for basset horn (operas and wind ensembles); Beethoven wrote a fine basset horn/oboe duet in his Prometheus music; and Mendelssohn wrote 2 excellent Konzertstuecke for clarinet, basset horn and piano. Recently, Stockhausen has composed quite a bit for basset horn.
In my opinion, a basset horn is well worth having and will bring a great deal of enjoyment and satisfaction.
I can't speak to the alto clarinet, since I've never owned one.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-15 16:02
"But I could easily play an Alto Sax part on my Darth Tone, or do the ranges differ?"
You will indeed have the full range of the alto sax on alto clarinet, PLUS more - the alto clarinet will descend a fifth lower. The lowest note on an alto sax is Bb below written middle C.
In fact, an alto clarinet will descend lower than a tenor sax by a whole tone as well - a tenor sax's lowest note sounds concert pitch Ab (bottom space bass clef) and an alto clarinet's lowest note is Gb/F# below that.
A basset horn's written low C will sound as concert F (below the bass stave) a semitone below the alto clarinet's written low Eb (sounding Gb/F#), though in it's basic range, the basset horn's top high C (sounding F on three ledger lines above the treble clef stave) will be a whole tone above that of an alto clarinet where the top high C will sound Eb.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-03-15 16:04)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-03-15 17:04
TKS to both Larry, for listing the goodly number of composer's-works for the B H, and Chris for explaining the "range-ability" of the A C vs the A S etc. I'd only add that the bass cl pretty well covers the range of both the tenor and baritone saxes. With some transposition skill, the B C is often a good substitute for bari in musical pit orchs. Just thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-03-15 17:44
First of all, Chris - LOL! 
Second of all -
"Otherwise like already mentioned you aren't going to get a lot of chance to play even in orchestras."
"THere isn't much use for these instruments, as there isn't much use for the alto, besides in bands."
"There is not a lot of music, except for Mozart's, for it, and not much more for alto except for concert band"
So many comments saying that. From my experience there is a lot of use for any instrument if you decide that you want to make use for it. So yes, in the limited sense that the above posts refer to music maybe there isn't much use for these instruments, but in the sense that others think of music, which has no limits, there is. You can wait until there is an opportunity to play alto (or anything) or try to create the opportunity yourself.
Does it happen really that people have something against the alto clarinet, or is it one of those internet rumors that has nothing to do with reality? At least here I never heard any bad comments on alto clarinets from anyone. Usually no one has any reaction to alto, neither good or bad, but the only reactions I did hear are that it was interesting to see an unusual intsrument.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-03-15 19:46
I've played alto clarinet when "needed" for well over forty years now. The first money I ever earned for playing music was on alto (a last-minute instrument demo for Selmer), although I am somewhat ashamed to admit it these days.
The alto clarinet is perfectly good to make musical noises, and with a little practice you can make one fly about as well as any other instrument. Its tone leaves quite a bit to be desired ("vapid" "windy" and "inspid" are terms I have seen in orchestration books). Its range is too low to be lyric like a flute or clarinet, but too high to be "interesting" like a bass clarinet or bassoon.
Pitch wise, while the alto is the alto of the clarinet family, it's really more like a counte-tenor, with all of the strengths and weaknesses that that voicing implies. Universally, the "natural" and "preferred" voicings are the comfortable alto and baritone ones (although art folks find a place for soprano and tenor and occasionally bass). Nothing wrong with this, but our ears are more suited for the middle ground for each type of voice, and baritone and alto (true alto) are the way to go there.
Someone (not on this service) has actually structured their musical life around playing jazz on the alto clarinet. Much of the appeal there has to rest in the music itself, but they (at least) must think that they are making pretty music.
Sadly for the alto clarinet community, few seem to agree with them. Look hard for them, but you won't find them outside of clarinet choirs and well-provided concert bands. (Last time that I inquired, even the service bands did not carry them.) No orchestra use unless English composers are on the menu. Our example above, jazz use is pretty limited. (There will always be someone who wants to groove out on a Heckelphone.)
The basset horn is a different case. There, the instrument was much more common in the "old days", before the debut of the bass clarinet and lyric bassoon playing. But, the parts are there. (Oddly enough, I was drafted for a basset horn performance a few years after my alto clarinet "gig".) However, the style of musical writing moved away from the basset horn in "recent years" (for the last century and a half), and other than my best boy R. Strauss and one or two others, it doesn't come out of the box.
There are always those who will argue for use based upon the mere fact that it exists. Similarly, we have the Ab, Eb, D, C, A and G clarinets (and bass clarinet in C and A), all in theory sitting around just begging to be blown upon. But, just as there is a general lack of parts for the D clarinet and A bass clarinet, so too the alto and basset. Such is life.
Owning one (in either case) is a bit of a stretch if you go for the same sort of instrument coveted by most musicians. Those aspiring to a basset clarinet have only one level of choice - professional, and quite expensive professional at that. (Even basset clarinets, basically "long" A clarinets, are very pricey.) So, come to the fair with a lot of gelt.
And, once you get one, then what? As pointed out above, basset horns have a considerable literature, mostly from the "classical" and "romantic" eras. As long as you like stuff from that era, you've got enough to keep you busy for a while. Plus, you won't have to deal with the fire department slapping a closing order on your concert venue for over crowding...
Alto clarinet is another matter. Unless you go at it by writing your own charts or improvising, the music that is there is kind of pathetic. You can always play clarinet parts on them, but playing with others in most situations is going to involve some transposition (which is easy on the alto, thanks to the nifty register key transposition trick).
Regardless, "specialize" in either one and you are likely to be viewed as the (if not ugly) eccentric bridesmaid at a classic wedding. Some can accept that role, some can't.
Whatever you do, don't get get a degree in performance on any of the three (alto clarinet, basset horn, basset clarinet)...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2007-03-16 10:53
to rsholmes:
I mis-spoke CONCERTO, it's a SONATA.
It's the Sonata Op 111. About five movements and one that explores the whole range of the instrument. Very pretty piece. This could be a nice recital piece, breaking up an all Bb soprano performance!
eefer guy
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-03-17 11:54
Q: How can you tell if someone's a nerd?
A: A nerd is someone who owns an alto clarinet.
Yes, I've got my personal nerd credential, a nice one (Paris Selmer), and I paid a bargain price for it--a fraction of what I'd need to pay for a comparable used bass clarinet. The nifty thing about buying an alto is that all those snobs, oops, I mean discriminating consumers, who gag at the very thought of an alto clarinet, do a fine job of holding down prices for the rest of us.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-03-17 12:06
Well said, Lelia, my experience [and Sel-Paris] also. I do find some cl'ists in our comm. band paying attention when I have a solo/soli part, so our efforts are not all in vain. Keep tooting well, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-03-17 13:11
> Q: How can you tell if someone's a nerd?
> A: A nerd is someone who owns an alto clarinet.
<hangs head>
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-17 13:37
I've got two Leblanc altos (in bits), so what does that make me?
But I can cancel out the nerdiness factor by saying I know very little about computers, I'm not a huge Sci-fi fan (but I like some), don't own a telescope, innumerate, never read any kind of fiction, never went to university, ...
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-03-17 17:35
Yer von of US, Chris ! Borrowed from R & H [So Pac, "Dames"], " Alto is neerdy as can be, hardly of this world", perhaps our poet-limrickers, ala Dave S, can finish?? or re-do? Personally, I admire computer skills, but your other criteria, NO, except that my BS was from a "college", not a univ. [then]. Is this attempt at levity OK?, GBK, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-03-17 19:23
Don,
I know that there's a lot of BS in this world, but I was not aware that one could acquire it in a college.
--
Ben
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2007-03-18 07:41
Hi,
Two weeks ago I heard a concert at the Mann Auditorium (Israel Phil). Outside the Hall there are always players who play in the street. I heard a clarinet sound and looked for the person.... I couldn't decide what instrument he was playing - Alto or basset.... when he stoped playing I asked him which insrtument is it- and he answerd: Bass Clarinet of course!
It was a very old and small Bass Clarinet with an interesting Barrel (it looked broken).
The man told me that he brought from Russia a collection of old clarinets, but refused to give me a Telephone number or address to contact him.
I gave him a nice tip anyway..
Sarah
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Author: beejay
Date: 2007-03-18 13:52
As the fortunate owner of a Buffet Crampon basset-horn, could I add a few observations.
First, it is true that there is not a huge orchestral repertoire for the instrument, and I play mine mostly on my own rather than in groups. But it is a highly satisfying instrument, much easier to play softly than the standard clarinet and thus less likely to disturb the neighbors if you want to tootle away at unsociable hours. Mine is also very free blowing, so I can play it for a whole afternoon without getting tired.
There is quite a big repetoire for the basset horn -- two valuable references are "The Basset Horn and its Music" by John Newhill and the encyclopaedic "Das Bassethorn - Seine Entwicklung und seiner Musik" by Thomas Grass and Dietrich Demus.
It is possible also to play most things written for horn in F and a lot of the repertoire for cor anglais. It also copes beautifully with anything written for cello, particularly the Bach suites.
I'm currently working on the Mendelssohn concert pieces for clarinet and basset horn and find them very satisfying although quite challenging. And I sometimes play the basset clarinet version of the Mozart concerto.
Unlike earlier basset horns, which had a narrow bore and were played with a clarinet mouthpiece, my instrument is played with an alto mouthpiece and is similar in its dimensions to an alto clarinet, although it has a distinctive slightly misty sound. George Bernard Shaw dismissed it as "watery."
I had a lot of difficulty at first in finding the right mouthpiece. There is not much choice. Mine came with a standard Vandoren B40, which I found to be too honky and prone to squeaks. A VD 5RV was an improvement, but was not the sound I was looking for. Finally I contacted John Pilliger in London, who supplied a mouthpiece that gave me exactly the kind of silvery timbre I wanted.
Rather than use the recommended alto clarinet reeds, I play on Vandoren Jazz reeds for alto sax, which are more readily available and suit the instrument very well.
BJ
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Author: John25
Date: 2007-03-18 14:30
Although the orchestral repertoire for basset-horn looks meagre, you get plenty of playing. I have played the Mozart "Requiem" and the "Gran Partita" over 70 times each since buying my basset-horn. So the instrument has really paid for itself.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-03-18 18:24
Anyone who plays the oboe doesn't need to search any further for his or her nerd credentials...
My gauge for nerdiness is what the players do in their spare time. In The Clarinet, they are always profiling orchestral clarinet sections, and such profiles invariably include a brief little blurb as to what they do when they're not playing their horns.
The soprano guys and gals all come up with something like lace pattern collecting or cycling through Europe.
(There are, of course, never any alto players profiled...)
The bass players, invariably chunky and slightly oafish looking characters, usually have an advocation like beer brewing...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2007-03-19 11:38
If you haven't tried a Hawkins alto clarinet m'piece on either wide bore bassett or alto, do so. Paired with a VanDoren Optimum ligature, it gives a wonderful sound on both. It works better than several other pricier models.
eefer guy
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-03-19 11:59
"I've got two Leblanc altos (in bits), so what does that make me?"
I've got two altos of different companies and not in bits..... what does it make me...?!
"But I can cancel out the nerdiness factor by saying I know very little about computers, I'm not a huge Sci-fi fan (but I like some), don't own a telescope, innumerate, never read any kind of fiction, never went to university"
But posting here cancels the cancelation....
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-19 12:20
Grrrrrr!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2007-03-19 14:51
eefer guy:
where does one find a Hawkins alto clar mouthpiece? I didn't see it described on his website.
I really love my Bill Street mouthpiece/rovner lig on my Leblanc basset horn, but am always curious about the color of the grass on th' other side.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2007-03-19 15:55
Larryb,
Mine is about four years old, bought through Weiner Music so you might try them to se if they have one lying around .Had used a VaDoren, the LeBlanc mouthpieces that came with the horn and several others, including some for $200+. None are even close.
Wl have to try a Bil street on your recomendation to!
Eefer guy
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