 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-03-10 21:51
well. to start with: even a bad one is better than the original buffet barrel!! that is a fact!
then i have got 3 testbarrels. one 650 and two 660.
the 650 are painted as the buffetpeople does. but the neworded directly from chadash are not! why? someone?
that makes some different in the two kinds i belive. or i know. because it feels really much!
i fallen in love with the 650. but i allways have to pull 1 or 1.5 mm when i play.
the other two are beautiful. but not quiet the same to me.
how shall i do? the 660 with a great sound and no pull or the 650 with extraordinary sound and a little pull????
HELP!! i have to return the stuff on monday!
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-03-11 01:21
live with the extra millimeter and take the great barrel --who knows, someday you might be flat and need the shorter barrel.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Clariphant in Bb
Date: 2007-03-11 02:39
I also think the 650 would be the better choice. What if you're flat one day? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't barrels supposed to be in tune when they're pulled out the width of a nickel (or was it a dime...), not when they're pushed in all the way?
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2007-03-11 05:27
"even a bad one is better than the original buffet barrel!! that is a fact!"
Oh it is, is it?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-03-11 07:36
It sounds like you think there might be a problem with a barrel pulled out a little. There is a problem only if you feel there is when you play. From what you say it doesn't sound like you have any problem with it.
By the way, are you talking about the Chadash barrels marked Buffet or the ones from him which are more curvy and don't have Buffet written on them? Recently a local player had me listen to lots of different barrels (stock Buffet, Backun, Buffet/Chadash, new Chadash). It wasn't a fact that the Chadash is better than the stock Buffet. I guess I don't have your experience comparing a bad Chadash with a stock Buffet barrel, because all those barrels I heard in the comaprison were excellent.
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-03-11 13:23
i didn't know that the ones from chadash himself was made any different. i am talking about the buffet chadashbarrels.
when i say badest chadash. it's just by comparing to other chadashbarrels! the overall level on the barrel is still excellent and far better that the original one when it comes to overtones and intonation!!
a bad chadash in one mans ear can be a good one in another's. on this level of craftmanship it's just about taste and the players goal with his or her's sound!!
what about that nickel? i have never heard that the barrel is "made" to tune "a nickel" out? can anyone who is in the barrelmakingtrade(is that what it's called?) confirm or deny this?
thanks. i'm going with the 650 barrel!
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2007-03-11 14:50
Niclas, I would always go with the better playing barrel. If the gap created by pulling out is a concern to you (some players swear it makes a difference while others claim it doesn't), you can buy some Accubore tuning rings to fill the space.
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Author: William
Date: 2007-03-11 15:24
Never played a Chadash barrel that I liked--Buffet or LeBanc clarinets, Kaspar, Smith, Bay or Bowen mpcs. If I must use a custom barrel, I'll take the old Springer barrels any day. But usually, I prefer the barrels that come "stock" with the instrument (especially my LeBlanc Concertos). I just rotate them unitl I find the position that produces the best sound (as I also do with the bell), then mark it so I can always position it that way.
As for length, you should use a barrel that plays at the pitch level you want when the clarinet is cold. Then, you can always stay "in tune" by pulling the mpc as the clarinet warms, or warming up to for an ensemble that plays sharp. It's always good to be flexible and not just restricted to playing at A=440 when your clarinet is warmed, but the band/orchestra is playing at A=442 (or higher). Regarless, like my good friend always says, "It is more important to play in tune that be in tune". Tuning is more about your ear than your instrument.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-03-11 16:23
"what about that nickel? i have never heard that the barrel is "made" to tune "a nickel" out? can anyone who is in the barrelmakingtrade(is that what it's called?) confirm or deny this?"
It doesn't take a barrel maker to answer that. Always play with the barrel in the position that gives you the best intonation at that moment. This position can vary depending on who is playing, the mouthpiece/reed used, and weather.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-03-11 17:59
Keep the one that plays best in tune. IMHO, out of tune equipment is worthless, no matter how good it sounds.
Try tuning rings to increase the effective length of the shorter barrel.
On the other hand, Guy Chadash says that there ought to be a gap between the bottom of the barrel and the top of the upper joint tenon. See http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=289&t=289 at the BUFFET TUNING and MOENNIG VS. CHADASH BARRELS sections.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2007-03-11 17:59)
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-03-11 18:12
i have to dissagree on what clarnibass wrote:
> It doesn't take a barrel maker to answer that. Always play with
> the barrel in the position that gives you the best intonation
> at that moment. This position can vary depending on who is
> playing, the mouthpiece/reed used, and weather.
i belive that the clarinet plays better in tune with itself beeing a certain way. so if one is sharp and have to pull. yes that makes the overall tuning go down. but it also effects some notes that varies in pitch when pulling. that is what i have experiensed anyway. with my old barrel(havn't tried with the new one) i played in tune with myself when i hadn't pulled at all(it's a 660). even if i didn't with the rest of my ensemble. but those times i had to pull to tune with them some of those bad notes (left hand f#1 and right hand b) got far worse.
that why i got so surprised when clarniphant in Bb said that they are made to be played "a nickel" pulled!!!
so barrelmakers please tell me how it is!!
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-03-11 18:16
Ken:
it's not really that it plays worse in tune. it's perfect when pulled 1 mm.
but if it's better to have a barrel that is not pulled at all or if it doesn't make a differense???
seems like we were wroting at the same time.
i will read that post right away.!!!
tnx
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Author: Clarion
Date: 2007-03-11 23:34
I have experience with the barrel made by Guy Chadash, of NYC. The Chadash bore might be good, but be careful, and know what you are getting. You will find two "Chadash" barrels that are quite different:
(#1) The "Buffet" barrel marked "Chadash" appears to be of the same quality as an original equipment Buffet clarinet barrel. The principle in our orchestra uses one, I have seen it, it has no cracks, and she likes it. It carries the Buffet logo plus the word "Chadash", signifying that it has the "Chadash" tapered bore. It has metal rings. Research on the Web says this is a genuine Buffet barrel made in France and then bored by Chadash to his specifications.
(#2) The "Chadash" barrel carrying the "GC" logo, or perhaps no logo at all, is made in NYC by Mr. Chadash, the inventor of the tapered bore. He turns them on the lathe in his shop.
I bought #2. This barrel has no rings. Mr. Chadash will tell you it is the same as the "Buffet/Chadash" barrel, and that rings are undesirable, but my experience says this is not the case. The barrel cracked in three places a week after I got it back home. Additionally, it did not fit properly on my R-13; it was a little too tight, and hard to get on and back off again. This barrel was personally fitted on my R-13 by Mr. Chadash.
I suspect the lack of rings and the poor fit caused the cracks; I can't say for sure. Also, it is annoying that this barrel (#2) does not come close to matching the R-13 in appearance; it's a different shape and color, which makes it look like it doesn't belong.
I wish I had bought the "Buffet" barrel (#1) from an established musical instrument accessory dealer, where a credit card could have been used and I would have had some recourse.
Post Edited (2007-03-12 17:08)
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Author: msloss
Date: 2007-03-12 00:57
Guy Chadash turns the barrels bearing the Buffet insignia exactly the same as the custom GC barrels he makes from his own wood stock from Mozambique. He does it on the same machine with the same reamers. I've watched him do it. I also have both types of barrels. I got one of the very first "ringless" barrels he made and was quite pleased with it. Pardon the crass pun, but I actually found the "ringless" barrel had more ring to it, but I couldn't say for certain that it was the lack of metal vs. different wood.
Anyway, wood shrinks and swells, and traveling and playing could very well have caused a barrel that fit to become a problem. Maybe it was a bad piece of wood or maybe you forced the barrel on to the tenon and caused it to crack. If you haven't let too much time go by, simply contact Guy, inform him of the situation, and try to get satisfaction rather than just trashing him here with incomplete or incorrect information.
Best of luck with it.
Mark S.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-03-12 01:00
Clarion wrote:
> I have experience with the barrel made by Guy Chadash, of NYC.
> The Chadash bore might be good, but be careful, and know what
> you are getting. You will find two "Chadash" barrels that are
> quite different:
I'm sorry, you are totally wrong ... Guy Chadash creates both and they are essentially identical.
Have you talked with Guy about your barrel?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-03-12 01:07
Approximately 1 year ago, my orchestra colleague purchased a Chadash barrel (#2 as described above) with the "GC" logo and no rings.
Last month the barrel developed a severe 2'' crack starting at the upper edge of the ringless area and protruding into the bore.
Barrels, like clarinets can crack.
Preventive maintenance is always prudent, but is not an absolute guarantee of keeping the wood from cracking.
Some wood will crack no matter what you do.
Some will not...GBK
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-03-12 06:17
It is true that they are both bored by Chadash, but at the end of the day, they are different barrels. The wood for the Buffet line are supplied by Buffet to Chadash for reaming. The wood that Chadash uses for his own barrels are made form his own source of wood, a history that is undoubtedly different. Some would say that his own private source of wood is better, others would question this. I will say, I have seen and heard of more of his ringless barrels cracking than I've ever seen of the Buffet branded ones.
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-03-12 12:14
but what is it with painting and not painting?
why does Buffet paint the clarinets??
and why are the new ones from Buffet i orded NOT painted?
are they going to stop paint?
anyone one the inside who can answer this?
tnx
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-03-12 13:10
pelo_ensortijado wrote: "i have to dissagree on what clarnibass wrote....."
So what is your different method to play in tune? Do you just have it all the way in and use your ears and mouth to tune? I use my ears but it is easier if the barrel and joints are in best position for the situation, which varies.
"with my old barrel i played in tune with myself when i hadn't pulled at all(it's a 660). even if i didn't with the rest of my ensemble. but those times i had to pull to tune with them some of those bad notes (left hand f#1 and right hand b) got far worse."
If this was true wouldn't it mean you play out of tune a lot of the time?
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Author: Clarion
Date: 2007-03-12 16:10
It's disappointing to see "msloss" sees my post as "trashing". I think trashing is an over-reaction; it is loaded with negative conotations never intended. The post is my personal opinion and experience. I apologize if I was mistaken in any way. I regret the barrel cracked before I had a chance to play on it enough to see the benefits. I count four wood clarinets in my past and I have not seen a crack until now. Maybe that was just good luck.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-03-12 16:16
Clarion wrote:
> It's disappointing to see "msloss" sees my post as "trashing".
> I think trashing is an over-reaction; it is loaded with
> negative conotations never intended.
I read it exactly the same way as msloss.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-03-12 17:47
While there's been some disagreement about this, every new barrel I've gotten has shrunk inside the lower socket, often so much that I can't get the barrel on the upper joint tenon. Each barrel maker has told me that wood-to-wood contact (between the top of the tenon and the bottom of the socket) will quickly crack a barrel, or even the tenon, and that I should immediately come back to have the socket reamed if the barrel is tight or "bites" even a little when I take the clarinet apart.
Guy Chadash stands behind his products, and I'm sure he will fix your barrel, and if you don't like the fix, he will replace it.
Ken Shaw
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Author: hartt
Date: 2007-03-13 05:11
In line with what Ken Shaw contributed above, I came across this recent (March 8, '07) 'posting' by Sherman in Sherman Friedland's Clarinet Corner.
It specifically relates to the priorities in choosing a barrel.....namely TUNING.
http://clarinet.cc/archives/2007/03/barrels_which_t.html
People should visit Sherman's Clarinet Corner often; it contains a wealth of information and advice, and he's a total gentleman in his approach to answering questions.
BTW........I've a Chadash 65mm Bb bbl. It developed 4 cracks in it, one running the full length of the bbl......bore to surface.
It was a very in tune bbl with nice projection.
John Butler of Instrument Restoration, glued and pinned the cracks. It plays as well now as it did before the cracks.
dennis
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-03-13 08:18
Clarnibass wrote:
"So what is your different method to play in tune? Do you just have it all the way in and use your ears and mouth to tune? I use my ears but it is easier if the barrel and joints are in best position for the situation, which varies. "
yes ofcourse one have to tune by pulling or tightening the joints when going sharp or flat.
but i have allways heard that the POSITION that the barrel for example are extremly important for how EVEN the overall tuning will be!!
with this i am, on my bad english, trying to say that the clarinetmakers made it to tune BEST in a certain way. and when NOT doing that way. some of the notes change a little bit. aint i right here?? at least for me they does.
with that i am trying to say that the more one pull to tune overall, the more one have to adjust with the ear to make the specific notes tune!
and just yesterday i read in the article that Ken Shaw linked to in his reply to this post, that adjusting the barrel effects the overtones. and that the barrels ARE made to be 1mm out for best overall tuning and overtones! :D
isn't that showing that im right?
"If this was true wouldn't it mean you play out of tune a lot of the time?"
answered to above. but i'll do it again. just to make it clear what i have heard is right.
when tuning by pulling or tightening. the overall tuning are better. but specific notes maybe a little worse. therefor, the more pulling, the more "earadjusting". and that's why one allways shall look for the right LENGHT also when buying a new barrel!!
please correct me if im wrong!!
and thanks Ken Shaw! very intresting article!!! alot of great stuff!!
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