 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SusanT
Date: 2007-03-05 16:30
I have a Vito clarinet which is nearly twenty years old, and cost my parents about $200 when they bought it originally new. It's never had a complete re-pad job, just occasional new pads when I was in band when I was younger. In the intervening decade since I stopped playing, the pads have practically disintegrated, and I'd like to repair it just to dabble on.
The problem with this, as is possibly familiar to others, is that when I called around to price this service, I was told that it'd be about $150-$200. The *lowest* estimate I got was over $100 and was for a place a significant drive from my home.
That, I think, would be a foolish expenditure at this stage. If I were still actively playing with an organized group, sure, I'd shell out for good service, but I haven't played in ten (okay, closer to eleven) years and this was really always a bottom-end instrument. If I do actually take it up again and keep it up, I will probably buy an actual wood clarinet eventually, so the repair job doesn't need to be fantastic or especially long-lasting, just sufficient for me to try it out again. I am fairly mechanically inclined and figure it can't turn out any less playable than it currently is.
So what I'm looking for now is a starting point. What supplies will I need other than the pads, where is the best place to get the pads from, and how do I remove the last bits of the old ones and put in the new? I am basically looking to have an *adequate* repair for as little money as possible, which is to say, if possible below the $50ish threshold that working versions of this same model seem to be going for on E-bay.
Oh. And I really do need at least one new cork, too, so instructions/resources for that would also be appreciated, although I played with this one half-shredded for the last two years I was in band, so I'm pretty sure it'll still work as is.
Thanks in advance! Reading through these threads, I wish this had been available when I was younger, maybe I would have kept it up.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-05 16:43
To be honest, $150-200 is a very low cost for a repad - provided it's done well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-03-05 17:04
Hi,
To just dabble into clarinet repair and re-padding could be a very frustrating experience unless you already possess some knowledge, supplies, and are very good at detailed work. The initial investment in tools alone could put you over your threshold very quickly.
I am an experienced player and have tools, knowledge, and am a careful worker. However, there are some things I will not do on my own instruments.
Do not let price be your only guide. As they say, "you get what you..."
HRL
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-03-05 17:27
Abraham Lincoln once observed that a lawyer who represents himself as having a fool for a client.
Having seen many do-it yourself repairs back at my tech's shop for re-doing correctly, Lincoln's observation is prudent advice...GBK
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Author: SusanT
Date: 2007-03-05 17:32
But again, as I said, I don't need it to be done well, I just need it to be done. It's a completely impractical amount for an instrument which is worth only 1/3 to 1/4 of that amount even fully functional. I know it is possible to do this as an amateur, so I would far prefer doing that to this going in the dumpster, since I'm a little bit sentimental about the fact that I grew up with this particular piece of plastic.
Given that I can't even give it away unless it has new pads on it, "doing the job right" is not really something I care about. It doesn't need to play well, it just needs to emit something vaguely resembling the proper notes until such time as it's worth buying a better model. I'm sure a professional would do it *better*, but I don't need it done that well yet.
With regards to tools: Unless there's very specialty stuff involved, I probably have it or have access to it. Nobody in my family does instrument repair (unfortunately), but I think we cover all the other fine mechanical work bases--jewelry, electronics, that sort of thing. This is sort of like replacing my old laptop's power jack. A whole new motherboard would have made it work much better overall, I'm quite sure, but the power jack was $30 and the motherboard was $550 and I just needed the thing to be able to take a charge again.
I know that it is *possible* for a non-professional to re-pad a clarinet, so I just want instructions on how to do that if anybody here knows. I know it won't come out as well, but on something that's as good as dead without it, that's an acceptable result to me. I know I'm going to get what I pay for, and that's fine with me, I only need about $50 worth of function to be pleased with the result--it doesn't need to play like an R13!
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-03-05 17:38
it isn't that hard as everyone is trying to make it sound. all you need are a new set of pads, some shellac, a pad seater (just a piece of thin metal) and a candle. pads aren't expensieve, and shellac can be found at your local music store. the rest is just watching and observing.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: SusanT
Date: 2007-03-05 17:51
You know, I didn't even realize there was other stuff besides the forum here. (I know, I'm a moron, I just didn't think to look.) Thanks!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-03-05 21:20
C2thew,
Perhaps you missed my comment about "knowledge, supplies, and are very good at detailed work" A repad is not rocket science but a pro/expert makes the difficult look easy.
When I am shopping at Home Depot, I see many people preparing for repairs that they are going to undertake. There are a lot "deer-in-the headlights" gazes. I always wonder how the After Action Report reads.
My dad was a physician and I always like to quote him. He said "I get the 'big buck' because I know what not to do." He was such a kidder!
HRL
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-03-05 21:46
On the other hand, if your repad mysteriously fails, you are exactly where you are now (unless you went the brute force road with all the screws and springs), and you can still think about trying again or give it to your repair person.
A repad and recork is not rocket science per se. The fine-tuning with spring tension and vent height and all that, however, probably is.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-05 23:21
You can't weigh up the monetary value of an instrument against the cost of a repad (unless it's a cheap Chinese thing that isn't good to begin with).
I hear this all too often when people bring an old but still perfectly useable clarinet (or any instrument) in and go on that 'it only cost X amount when I bought it' or say 'well that's a 10th of the price of a new one'.
Vito clarinets will go on for years if well maintained, and it's a fact of life that clarinets and all instruments need maintaining in order for them to be playable - you'd never own a car without spending more than it's worth keeping it on the road for the duration you own it, and the same applies to instruments.
If it's a good quality instrument it's worth spending the money to have the work done well, no matter how much it cost you in the first place. My first clarinet was bought at a junk sale in Texas for $7.75 back in 1986 - it was a B&H 2-20 and I learnt to dismantle it and repad it several times and carry out some other structural work on it, and I spent a lot more in materials rebuilding it than my initial $7.75 it cost me as I thought it was worth doing, and it played well enough to nail a disctinction in my first clarinet exam. Later on I bought a pair of Selmer Centered Tones that were in a dreadful state having been left in an attic for around 20 years for £200 which I still have (though I have 'retired' them), and if I added up the cost of the work I've done to these over time, the bill would be at least £2000 - but again, they were worth doing. And the same goes with a lot more clarinets besides these which I still use.
So just because you spent a small sum on a quality instrument doesn't mean you have to limit your sending on it's maintainance.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-03-05 23:34
"knowledge, supplies, and are very good at detailed work" A repad is not rocket science but a pro/expert makes the difficult look easy.
Like i said, your making it sound harder than it is. i didn't just teach myself how to repair, i watched my technician do it for a couple of hours and learned by observation. Clarinets are by far easy to repad compared to a flute. Springs are harder to do because they require 2 special tools and a lot of fine tuning to get the proper feel. Pros have more time and experience. but the original question was the difficulty in repading a clarinet, which we have all addressed is not rocket science.
the rest of it is time, hobby time that is.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-03-06 02:48
I agree with you that it makes no sense to spend $150 to repad a clarinet that will be worth around $100 when you're done. For what you want, I would recommend you buy a set of Valentino pads. Weiner music sells them in a kit (CPS pad set -- XVCPSO) for $19 that includes some useful tools and a set of installation instructions. It will set you back $19. These pads cost about twice as much as a bladder pad set but require far less skill to seat reasonably well.
You'll also need a small screwdriver to remove the keys and some system to keep track of the rods and screws for reassembly. The rods are all different sizes so it will save you alot of time later if you keep track of what goes where. After you've removed the keys, a small butane lighter to heat the pad cups should be adequate to melt the glue holding the existing pads. Some Q-tips and Flitz metal polish should be adequate to clean the residue out of the cups (and you can polish the keys as well, if you want). While you have the keys off, it would probably be a good idea to give the clarinet a wash. I'd use disinfectant soap and an old (soft) toothbrush. Just make sure you rinse well. Also use a little key oil (or sewing machine oil) to clean out the key tubes. Oh, and watch out for the needle springs when you have the keys off, they can hurt like the dickens.
To replace a tenon cork, follow Steve Prescott's advice here:
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/Care/TenonCork.html
Just be patient, take your time and enjoy the process. You'll learn something about how a clarinet works and, if you can get yours to play, I expect you'll feel a great sense of accomplishment. If you can't get it to play, you're not out too much and you will still learn something.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-03-06 06:50
also try www.MusicMedic.com
you may want to look at their kit
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/kit-101.html
which I believe still needs a complete pad kit to complete in your instance.
would you bring your total a shy short of $100 for the kit ($85 plus complete pad set + $11)
also check out their articles at the bottom of the page.
FWIW, I'm sure everyone wishes you luck in your endeavor. If you are lucky and patient everything will work out to your expectations. Practice makes perfect as they all say.
And, just in case you ask, if you mess up and take it to a tech some may just try and tweak what you have, other may basically start from scratch .. and it all depends. Figure 1 hour at $50 (or less, or more) .. and you are hovering at the $150 mark easily if you have problems .... makes that $150-200 look more plausible and easy.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-03-06 07:56
If a novice puts the pads in, It is most unlikely that the instrument will finish up playable. Of course there may be exceptions.
If a novice puts the pads in, then it is rather unlikely that the tech that corrects what has been done will be able to use the pads that have been installed. (That would cost more, in time, than starting again.)
Sure, it is not rocket science, but if it is not done well, then the instrument is not likely to be playable in the sense that it does not put a beginner off,l especially playing centre-staff B.
I rather suspect there may be just as much expertise needed to get that area of a clarinet right as that needed for a hip replacement, anaesthetics aside. (But all you need is a scalpel, a saw, brace and appropriate bits, a hammer & chisel, the prosthesis, and some glue :-)
C2thew wrote "... Springs are harder to do because they require 2 special tools..." Hmmm. I wonder why I regularly use exclusively for spring work, 5 specialist pliers, a lead block, an anvil, a hammer, several punches, stock of springs, etc.
Sure, it is not rocket science, but there are many, many traps for the novice. It is very, very rare for a novice to do a job as well as even a relatively poor technician. We technicians have seen the results so often. Most of them are not worthy of even being patched up.
Sure, it's not rocket science, but it is most unlikely that a novice can get away with changing pads without a whole lot more work being necessary.
If you really want to work on your own instrument, then do yourself a favour; save yourself a lot of expense and frustration... Buy the currently best manual on the topic, and at least learn how much you don't know before you start!
THE COMPLETE WOODWIND REPAIR MANUAL - by Reg Thorp, available from http://www.napbirt.org/
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:j4odsdm6JPQJ:watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~pmatlock/html/my_quotes.html+Quotation+%22He+who+knows+not+and+knows+not+he+knows+not%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=nz
Or just do it for fun, but it is a bit unrealistic to expect it to end up what most people would call playable. The job is perhaps 20% changing pads. The rest is a lot of precision adjustment ,and correcting what else is not right, possibly even as a consequence of the very pad changing.
Good luck. :-)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-03-06 08:36
My first repad (of my old Vito Eb clarinet) was very cheap. The cost was, hmm, the pads, plus a shellac stick, that's it I think. Including some tools I already got before the price was a bit more, correct screwdriver, spring hook, maybe some other stuff. I used the home stove as flame..... After the first pad had to be thrown away (glue all over the place) the second came out ok but ugly. Kept improving every pad I did, with the occasional mess. After a very long time (since I couldn't get the clarinet near the flame, I had to align the pads by eyeing it) and some back pain (to use the stove I had to stand) I got it to be in not in any condition to play really, but with very strong finger pressure it played, sort of..... If I hadn't done that I wouldn't be able to do it right today.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-03-06 09:08
I did my very first repad with PVA glue. Had the advantage that I had plenty of time to re-seat till perfect.
And yes, the clarinet was playable. Even my teacher (who is well past the gorilla-grip stage) could play, although, of course, the horn played in a completely different ligue.
If you want to do something yourself, you have to start somewhere. With the current asking prices for the ubiquitous Vitos and Bundies, you invest 20$ in a horn, 10$ in pads AND AT LEAST A WEEKEND in work, learning and fighting frustration.
At the very least you will appreciate what a good tech is doing for your money.
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-03-06 12:07
And my self-taught career as a technician started in much the same way. My major first major flute job was my own, condemned-by-the-manufacturer, run-over Haynes.
What a shame the above-mentioned book was not available then, and I did not know of any others, and there was no internet help.
After the job was done, I swapped it at a local woodwind shop for a full Boehm, almost new, Buffet clarinet. This clarinet played poorly, and I did not have enough clarinet knowledge at the time to know that this was probably due to the ex-factory condition of the clarinet (which the local repair technician of the time had not corrected). I would have been a lot better off with a well-serviced, plastic Yamaha.
I agree, we all have to start somewhere. The range of relevant, previously acquired aptitudes and skills would vary hugely from person to person.
I still believe that for MOST people, the DIY approach to clarinet repadding would not result in a reasonably playable instrument.
Susan, you may well be an exception.
Post Edited (2007-03-06 12:10)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-03-06 12:42
I've learned to do my own re-padding in self-defense, because old and antique clarinets in terrible condition seem to be using my house as a flop joint (or at least that's what Shadow Cat thinks) and I can't afford to have them all rehabilitated professionally. However, I think professional repair techs deserve every cent they earn. I had to re-do my messy first attempts, and I don't recommend do-it-yourselfing for people who only want to fix up one instrument.
In evaluating whether a professional overhaul is worth the money, I wouldn't think in terms of what the used clarinet is worth in dollars so much as what it would cost to replace it. Also, you might not want to get rid of that Vito after you buy a pro-quality clarinet. In good condition, the Vito is a back-up instrument that you can play outdoors or in situations where you might have to leave the instrument unattended with questionable security. The Vito could save you from losing or damaging the wooden Buffet, Leblanc or other fine instrument you might eventually buy--and that's cheap insurance. I'd never want to be without a decent student or step-up plastic clarinet.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-03-06 13:35
Susan, if you want to get a bit of practice in to build your confidence level, hit the yard sales, junque stores, Goodwill, etc. and grab a couple of First Act or similar CSO's. After you have taken them apart and reassembled them a few times you will be a little better educated . . . if you ruin them while using them as training aids, so what! The cost is small, the instructional value great, and they can then be tossed into the dustbin, or made into lamps. Eu
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-03-06 13:51
EuGene,
shame on you - to suggest a CSO. If the instrument isn't at least theoretically capable of playing in the first place, even the best tech can't make it sing. That's very unfair to put such a clunker into the hands of an aspiring repadder! ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
(you're better off hunting "vintage" instruments, the manufacturers back then retained a minimum of workmanship pride...)
--
Ben
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-03-06 14:37
The main problem with the CSO, is that after you take it apart and reassemble, you don't know what to do with all the extra parts ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-03-06 14:51
Ah, yes, tictactux & clarnibass, your points have been noted and taken under advisement, however, I will stick with the CSO route, as using it for training purposes can't possibly hurt it and most likely will improve it, especially if one can't get a sound out of it after "fixing" it. One important repair lesson that can be learned is how to take some if Chris's ubiquitous Zooper-Gloo, some wood shop floor sweepings, and make a nice fitting 5/8" plug to put into the bore just above the speaker key. This latter fix will protect otherwise innocent dumpster divers after you have tossed out your training aid.
As for vintage clarinets, someone might want to actually play some music on them, so learn how first, then overha...er, fix 'em up (my apologies, VK).
Eu
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2007-03-07 03:47
when i wanted to repad a clarinet last year i approached a local repairer, who fortunately i knew, and spent an hour a week for about 10wks watching and then doing on one of mine. i also got do replace a spring and a couple of tenon corks.
i bought "A Guide to Repairing Woodwinds" by Ronald Saska and borrowed "Band Instrument Repair Manual" by Erick D Brand. i got some pads in a set from Musicmedic along with some shellac, cork and a spirit/alcohol lamp. i had a set of jeweller's screwdrivers and various pliers.
even then getting a noise out of it took a lot of playing around and readjusting. the whole process probably took between 20 and 30hrs!
the thing i found was that when something isn't quite right you get no sound at all. almost right isn't good enough. and getting it right doesn't correlate in any way to how much you spend. spending more or less doesn't make any difference - it's how the pads meet the toneholes and their height and depth and how everything is set up that matters. the price of the pads is irrelevent.
i have since repadded about 12 clarinets. and it still takes me a long time and i need to play it for a couple of weeks to get everything sorted out and working as it should. the easiest one so far was an R13. so it may be better to learn on a quality instrument and save the clunkers for when you really know what you are doing. :-)
steadfastness stands higher than any success
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Author: SusanT
Date: 2007-03-07 04:44
Geez, come back to a lot of responses! I've ordered pads and think, after reading things, that I should be able to get an acceptable result. If not...
The thing about this isn't that the clarinet itself is only worth $50. It's that I just want to play for a bit to build my mouth back up and see if I stick with it for awhile. That means I don't need a good clarinet, just one that's got all its parts.
So my options are twofold: I can either get this one fixed or buy an identical one with already-functioning pads for $50. If it costs me $150 to have this one re-padded, then buying another instrument is a much better deal. If my own attempt fails, I'm only out about $25. I have another $125 left to spend before I hit the price of the professional repair, and for that I can certainly get a working instrument.
If it works, if I ever move on to a better instrument I'll give this one away. If it doesn't work... well, it *already* doesn't work, so what have I lost? I'm still doing better financially than having it professionally done, and I'll have the experience of having tried, and probably a lot more knowledge about how my instrument actually works.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-03-07 10:48
For some reason I am reminded of the current tv ad where the guy is talking to the surgeon on the phone who is telling him how to make the first cut.
Bob Draznik
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-03-07 11:58
b.roke:
I wish I had your level of self-confidence . . . but I ain't! I would not wish to practice clarinet repair on an R-13 for the same reason I would feel much more comfortable learning auto mechanics on a VW rather than Ben's Maybach.
Eu
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-03-07 12:09
> Ben's Maybach
Moi? I don't even own a car at all! *)
Dunno about the confidence - if a clarinet isn't playing then an R13 is as dead as a Klingon or whatever brand. If you're careful enough (eg know when a screw is frozen or that going berserk isn't getting you anywhere), you can't really break anything. After the repad, the clarinet might be as dead as before, however. (Even the average player might occasionally try to take a key off in order to remove the gunk out of a tonehole)
OTOH - if I had the money to buy an R13 I quite probably had the money to have it professionally serviced. This has nothing to do with confidence but with common sense or protection of investment, IMO.
--
Ben
*) technically, my wife does. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2007-03-07 22:20
EuGeneSee - i don't have a lot of confidence which is why i needed the backup of a friendly tech. and the R13 came after about 10 to 12 Noblet and B&H's. the soft metal of a B&H makes for a much more difficult time setting it back up.
when my (ex)wife wanted to learn to drive i bought her a new car, as the old one that i was driving had so many idiosynchracies(sp?) that only an experienced driver could manage them all.
it was ironic that the easiest repair was the R13, or maybe not. some of the 50yr old neglected and even abused clarinets i have paid $30 or $40 for on ebay have needed a lot of TLC. AND they have been great teachers too.
if anyone has an interest in doing some of their own repairs then i cautiously advise them to look into it. it is a wonderful thing to be able to make some beautiful sounds on something that arrived as junk and has been transformed by a lot of care and a bit of knowledge.
steadfastness stands higher than any success
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-03-08 01:51
b.roke:
I can see where an R-13 might be much easier to work on because it is of a higher quality and more precision made . . . the parts go together without all the slop and looseness you must deal with on cheaper horns.
But, I guess my confidence level is lower than yours, as I would be terrified of learning on a $3,000 pro horn. I would be scared that I would badly damage something (ref: spiderbelle's thread on a pro horn nearly ruined by an incompetent "repairer").
Until I could build up my skill & knowledge of clarinet repair, I am willing to ruin a $25 CSO throwaway here and there, but not a good horn that I would cry over. I don't even work on my best clarinets, none of which is in the same expensive league with an R-13, but nonetheless they are too dear to my heart for me to risk damging them.
Eu
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2007-03-08 02:24
i was lucky - the R13 cost me $950 NZ which is about $600 US at the moment. bought unseen using the local equivalent of ebay and not described as an R13. i thought it was worth a punt, after a few questions to the seller and getting a serial no 180xxx.
it had just been to a repairer where several pads had been replaced, but a total repad and top joint tenon corks replaced, along with a thorough cleaning and liberal doses of The Doctor's wonderful bore oil. plus some tinkering has made it a very good instrument. i had never played on an R13 and had given credence to some opinions voiced here that they are over-rated, but i am now a believer. i bought a selmer 9* at the same time and it underwent the same process. and it is almost as good. almost.
back to the topic - it is very difficult to do irreversible damage as long as i remain aware of my limitations. cork can be replaced cheaply, pads can be shifted around and metal can be bent as Chris P once wrote here. and i wouldn't go anywhere near it with a drill.
steadfastness stands higher than any success
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2007-03-08 02:26
and i do the maintainance on my car too. not repairs, but changing the filters and oil.
steadfastness stands higher than any success
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