 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: joannew
Date: 2006-04-02 15:34
I made a lucky find in a pawn stop yesterday: an A clarinet by G. Leblanc with a double register key mechanism. There is no serial number, and I'm told it was a prototype, probably from the 1960s. The mechanism is a little different from the Stubbins type pictured in Brymer's book, and is operated by the A key, not by a ring for L3 as with some Leblancs that have been discussed here. It's pretty grubby, but the pads seal, no cracks, all tenons are metal capped, and it blows freely with a nice sound.
What a lucky April fool's day!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-02 16:06
I've seen a Bb version on eBay.fr with this throat Bb mechanism - the same type of mechanism as used on their basset horns and pro alto and bass clarinets with the link from the throat A key.
This one was probably from the '60s and the keys were unplated, and I wish I just bit the bullet and bid on it as it didn't go for all that high a price.
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Author: joannew
Date: 2006-04-02 16:21
What are these unplated keys are made of - is it a nickel alloy? Do you know what is the best polish to use?
thanks
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-04-02 17:04
Congrats, Joanne - Your "FIND" is at least one of [prob. a very few] Leon Leblanc's "answer" to the Stubbin's patent [US 2,508,550 and its promotion and licensing to several mfgrs, Selmer etc. Noblet made a few of these [for S's sale] per the pat. for Stubbins [I have one], and Sel perhaps modified the concept as did L L [Pat # {I'll post this when I re-find it}] and it was extended to the larger clarinets by his 2,627,776. I view it all as a mfgr's competition to produce a cl with a better [if still not real good] throat [pinch] Bb. Its an interesting story as I see it from the patent and mfgr'ing activities. A Search in our archives will give much more than I have here. Have much fun and restore your "find" reporting on it's playability. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-04-02 17:52
The Pat # [not in the above] is 2,832,250, I just made a copy of it ! Since these pats are older than the "full text" availability from www.USPTO.gov, databases, later than 1976, you may need Alterna Tiff for viewing and printing [its a bit awkward]. Just ask and I'll tell you how I do it. These pats are all expired, but TKS to the Patent Office, are still available for their technical content. Study & Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-02 23:20
Joanne,
Can you post a picture of this? I would like to see how it differs from the Stubbins models manufactured by Leblanc.
George
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-02 23:21
Don,
What is the difference between the Stubbins patent and the Leblanc patent?
George
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-04-03 01:20
Hi George - Without study of LL's --250 pat vs my Stub-Noblet, which ?corresponds to S's --550 pat, I can only say that 250 includes actuation from the A key, which 550 does not. As to what pad opening sequence is involved in this, I dont know [on a Sunday evening] !! Perhaps you can ascertain [some of] the diffs by viewing and reading both pats. We dont actually know, of course, if there are any diffs in J's cl [an A, I believe] from the 250 pat which has some 4 figures with slight diffs shown. As you asked her for a pic [you might look in Brymer since he gives the S some analysis, perhaps others?], if/when, we may be able, but for now at least, I doubt we can figure it out easily. Glad you are interested. Will try. Regards, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: joannew
Date: 2006-04-03 18:17
Attachment: Leblanc.jpg (271k)
Here are some pictures of the register key mechanism, and one showing that the that the left hand E/B and F#/C# keys are mounted on a single post. Any idea why usually two separate posts are used?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-03 21:10
That's even older than the one I was watching on eBay - but the throat Bb mechanism is essentially the same, though the later LL model I saw it on was more like that of the current basset horn/alto/bass clarinet type.
As for the LH levers, It's easier to fit two seperate keys on their own pillars than two sharing the same pillars and steel - especially the trills as there's less chance of the outer key barrel becoming loose through wear or bad fitting. And fitting keys like this after they've been plated is a right pain - it's tricky getting the fitting right so they neither bind or wobble. My old Buffet Eb has both the trills and the LH levers sharing the same pillars, and the barrels are tapered so fitting them was also a headache - but I've got them working, they're not perfect but they work. And that's why you see all Leblancs have seperate post mountings for both trills and LH levers - it's more reliable and easier to fit.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-04-03 21:43
Thanx, Chris, for reminding me to lookat-compare a "possibly similar" pinch Bb keying structure on my 1980's Selmer Alto cl. Likely Leblanc altos and basses made/make? use of at least one embodiment of LL's patent. George, I believe that Ken Shaw had a fine analysis of this "improvement" on Stubbins in an older thread, so an archives Search might turn it up, perhaps Ken/GBK may find it first, and post it. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-04-03 23:30
The "SK" leBlancs I own are devilishly difficult to keep in fighting trim.
The mechanism is VERY finicky. It works great when properly aligned, but I can't imagine school kids tolerating a monthly adjustment when it's out...
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-04-04 01:23
What are these unplated keys are made of - is it a nickel alloy? Do you know what is the best polish to use?
Opinions vary on this, but one relatively gentle (on the metal...but wash your hands well after using), and very effective, polish you can use is called Simichrome. You can find it at most motorcycle sales shops. It's made in Germany, and is sold internationally.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-04-04 02:54
Joanna - I guess I missed your second request re: key metal. In all probability the keys themselves [like my Stubbins "Made by Noblet"] are made from one of [many] nickel [so-called German silver] alloys of Ni, Cu and Zn which dulls with age and use. If plated, Ni is both cheaper and diff. from shinier Ag and needs diff. polishing cmpds. An interesting comment, SB, since my S- Nob has given me no trouble, however I really dont play it much. I assume yours is a Leblanc, without ?mention of Stubbins?, if so does it have an actuation lever from the A key [a possible trouble source?], which seems to be one of LL's [f.1954, is.1958] "improvements" [prob.] needed to successfully claim patentability beyond S [f.1948, is. 1950] and several other prior art citations. However, in his PB book "The Art of Clarinetistry" c.r. 1965, WHS [discussing Kaspar's contrubutions and giving an invention date of1952 !!] makes no mention, pg. 167 et seq., of Leblanc's contribution [differently titled !!] in his glowing account of cl improvement history. It appears to me to have been quite a contest, however both designs failed in the marketplace, possibly due, IMVHO, to OUR [player] resistance to change !! [Is this last sentence OK, GBK/MC ??] . An intriguing tale?? Back to the BB game!Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-04 13:59
Don,
I have a Stubbins branded Bb which is a "student" instrument (which I have always assumed was his original, pre-Leblanc run), a Noblet/Stubbins, and several professional-level Leblancs with "Stubbins" vents and keys as well as a Selmer L with an S-K key (this one I really do not understand). There are vent key variations among these different instruments, although looking at them all you would say "Stubbins" and all work exactly like the Stubbins branded clarinet. It will take me until the end of the week to assemble these from my two offices (on the left and right coasts) where I store instruments and take digital pictures of them together side by side so that they can be compared. [Note that in spite of the variations, all work the same in terms of the extra vent and not like the competing Selmer Omega mechanism.]
I had assumed that the key variations were simply different fabrications [which is also true with Selmer Mazzeos where there are several different ways of doing the same venting used at different times] that Stubbins and Leblanc used at different times. Now you raise the interesting possibility that sufficient differences were introduced to permit a secondary patent.
If anyone can shed light on the patent issue and the dating of the variations n the Stubbins [S-K] mechanisms, I would appreciate the help. I should have pictures up in 3 or 4 days and my goal is to assemble an accurate history of the manufacturing of variations in Mazzeo, McIntyre, and Stubbins clarinets in all of their variations.
On a second issue, I know from reports on this Bulletin Board and from Sherman Friedland that apparently Stubbins and Mazzeo engaged in litigation against one another for patent infringement. Was either ever engaged in similar litigation with Leblanc?
George
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-04-04 16:56
Hi George - Throwing Mazzeo-Selmer-Omegas into our MIX, WOW, further complicates analysis of the mechanical, legal, marketing and playability aspects, doesn't it? As I mentioned earlier, I suggest you read what Ken Shaw etc had to say by Searching "Stubbins AND Shaw" in our archives. My knowledge of this multiplicity is about exhausted, and I have current medical concerns [wife]. Will try to respond if/when asked. [Personal ? GBK? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-04 19:46
> Don Berger wrote:
> Hi George - <SNIP> As I mentioned
> earlier, I suggest you read what Ken Shaw etc had to say by
> Searching "Stubbins AND Shaw" in our archives. <SNIP> Don
>
I think that this is the relevant link to a prior posting by Ken.
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=208427&t=208321
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Author: joannew
Date: 2006-04-15 18:56
Well, after a couple of weeks breaking in the LeBlanc I must say I'm well pleased with it!
That middle Bb really seems to jump out - I suppose we get used to compensating for poor notes. The intonation is a little different from my R13 Bb, as to be expected (I presume this is a pre-polycylindrical bore), but can easily be played nicely in tune now that I'm getting a feel for it's inclinations. Also a little different is that the pitch of the throat tones are very accurate, and they don't need any right hand fingers for resonance.
The action is starting to feel a bit mushy (maybe that the pads had been very dry and are now rehydrating?), and I know it will benefit from a thorough overhall, but that will happen in time. For now I'm enjoying playing Mozart, and learning Crussel's D major quartet.
Happy Easter weekend to all!
Joanne
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Author: susieray
Date: 2007-03-02 20:25
Attachment: leblanc.jpg (305k)
Attachment: leblanc 2.jpg (286k)
Attachment: thumb rest.jpg (169k)
I have a really old Leblanc with a similar mechanism to Joanne's clarinet; similar, but there are some differences. (I am attaching photos). It has the in line trill keys, but the thumbrest is like those I've seen on clarinets from the 1930's. When did Leblanc start using the in line trills? It also has the 7th ring on the upper joint.
This instrument has NO serial number anywhere that I can find and it does
not appear to have ever had one, no trace of a number having been filed or
worn off.
Any of you guys have one like this? I'm curious to find out when it was made.
Sue
Post Edited (2007-03-03 00:46)
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-03-02 20:51
as i understand it, the "Stubbins mechanism" is not a true EXCHANGE mechanism, but provides extra VENTING for B flat. The advantage of this is that if it's out of adjustment the clarinet will still work.
However it's in a completely different ball park from a true EXCHANGE mechanism as built by Leblanc, Wurlitzer etc etc etc And bears no resemblance whatsoever to the Mazzeo mechanism other than that it's trying to improve throat B flat.
please correct me if i'm wrong...
donald
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-03-02 21:50
The 1950s Selmer Omegas used an exchange mechanism -- separate holes for Bb and the register vent. This design requires that the key controlling the mechanism be completely up or completely down. If both pads are (partly) open, neither note works. This interferes with passages that repeatedly cross over the break, such as the alternation of Bb and B in the Debussy Premiere Rhapsody.
The Leblancs shown in the photos on this string, as well as the Stubbins mechanism, used an extra vent for the Bb, in addition to the register vent. Both were open for Bb. Stubbins's book says that his patent was not for the mechanism (which had existed long before) but for the correct sizing and placement of the two holes, so that the instrument had an excellent Bb and also improved intonation between the chalumeau and clarion registers.
Oddly enough, Steve Fox makes both mechanisms, with the "addition" mechanism linked to the throat Ab key rather than the A key, as on the pictured Leblancs.
As far as I know, all automatic mechanisms for alto, bass and contrabass clarinet are the exchange type.
The Mazzeo mechanism is a third type. It will make a (poor) Bb with the standard fingering, and an excellent one with its special fingering (the A key plus any other finger ).
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-02 22:09
Though the additional throat Bb mechanisms may interfere with some altissimo notes - on a full Boehm with the Selmer Omega mechanism (if it's been fitted to one) it will knacker the altissimo Bb when the thumb is off the thumb bush as the lower vent will open instead of the speaker vent.
If it's linked to the throat G# or A keys, then it could interfere with the ventings on some altissimo notes if played (such as alt. E and F) with the throat G# or A keys opened to help them.
I could do with an alternative throat Bb on my Yamaha Oehler as the only one available is the standard A + speaker key - some Oehlers with five side keys have a side throat Bb as on Boehms, though that's venturing into mega money territory.
I thought about fitting a throat Bb mechanism to my Selmer full Boehms to be actuated by the throat G# or A key (as on pro Leblancs), but I think it's too much hassle even though it can be done. But I have three ways of playing mid stave Bb anyway, so there's no pressing need.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Brent
Date: 2007-03-07 17:23
Sue,
I have a LeBlanc like the one you have. It does have a SN, but i don't remember what it is and i don't have it with me now. It has the same type of thumbrest and register machanism. It plays...OK. The Bb is pretty good, though.
I know the clarinet was purchased used for my father when he first went into college before the outbreak of WW2, so it was made in the '30s, if not before.
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Author: susieray
Date: 2007-03-08 04:50
Thanks Brent, I was pretty sure mine was a 1930's horn, (or earlier) just going by the style of thumbrest it has. It definitely has no serial number though, I have looked it over VERY thoroughly!
Sue
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Author: samohan245
Date: 2007-03-08 22:22
yes i play soprano Bb and Bb bass.
the double register key on the bass clarinet makes playing very easy
i find this mechanism very easy to play with
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