 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-02-16 13:39
Hi Folks,
I have a student whose high register runs flat compared to her lower register. When she plays the C major scale, you can hear her pitch flattening as she goes up to the high C. She has a Yamaha 450 clarinet and a B45 mouthpiece, which doesn't seem to play much differently from the stock mouthpiece that came with the clarinet. She uses the stock barrel and 4 V-12 reeds. She can make it better when reminded to keep her embouchre firm and blow less air (she also plays too loud and brash). Maybe it's a tongue position thing too? I'm going to have her try some other mouthpieces this week to see if that makes a difference. I have M13, M13 Lyre, Larry Combs 1, Genussa 1*, another B45 that's been "worked on", and a crappy Chedeville (which I wouldn't sell her), all to get rid of. I'm not that familiar with how the Yamaha 450 tunes normally. Wouldn't have recommended this clarinet for her, but it was quite new when she started studying with me a couple of months ago. Any help?
Lori
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-16 14:31
Try using a softer reed - a V12 4 with a B45 is a bit excessive for a student, don't you think?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-16 14:46
"She uses the stock barrel and 4 V-12 reeds. She can make it better when reminded to keep her embouchre firm and blow less air (she also plays too loud and brash)."
In other words, her embouchure is slack due to the hard reed, hence it being 'loud and brash' and flat as she has to blow to make it sound rather than the usual supported breathing.
If she used a closer mouthpiece (5RV Lyre) and a softer reed (V12 2.5) then just maybe she would subconsciously use a firmer embouchure without having to be reminded to do so.
This set-up is way too resistant for a student, and it sounds like she's definitely struggling against it.
Can she play quietly and staccato tongue easily in the upper register? I'd be surprised if she can.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-02-16 14:53
Lori
Have you tried the clarinet yourself to check the tuning as well? Very hard to isolate a problem with the player or the instrument. Her reed number seems pretty high for a student...or for that matter a pro.
David Dow
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-16 14:58
Indeed it does.
I have play tested Yamaha 450 clarinets and found no tuning issues with them - the current stock barrels are now 65mm, so they should if anything be playing sharper in the throat and up top.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-02-16 17:16
try using a click barrel to see if that'll solve the problem for now. sounds like a barrel issue to me.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-16 17:30
No, it's not a barrel issue at all - it's simply using too hard a reed on an open mouthpiece with an underdeveloped embouchure.
Easy enough to sort out with the right degree of understanding.
The spec for the YCL-450 barrel is:
Length - 65mm
Upper bore diameter - 15.3mm (.602")
Lower bore diameter - 15.15mm (.596")
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-02-16 17:38)
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-02-16 17:56
Thanks for your posts. Will try some of the aforementioned things in our next lesson. One question, though...if a reed is too hard for a student, wouldn't the sound be airy and quiet, rather than loud and brash? I have another student who's a year younger on the same reed strength, but she uses Vandoren M14 mouthpiece and Buffet R13 clarinet. Her sound improved quite a bit when I moved her up to 4 from 3.5 (V12). She also had to take in a bit more mouthpiece and firm up the corners of the embouchre, but this all improved her sound. Anyway, when she plays on a reed that's too hard, or for that matter, one that's harder on one side than the other, she gets a rather airy sound, not loud and brash like student number 1. Of course, all her equipment (and the player) is different except for the reed.
Chris P: "Blow to make it sound" Isn't that how one plays a wind instrument? What do you mean "instead of the usual supported breathing"? I thought supported breathing meant you are using the diaphragm muscle and BLOWing efficiently to use the air from the bottom of the lungs, rather than just the upper half of the lungs. I notice that you are an oboe finisher, and I have heard that the opposite is true for oboe players (i.e. this will cause asphixiation, since a smaller amount of air is used to go through a very small aperture and they need to replenish the oxygen sooner), but what do I know? I'm just a clarinetist...
Lori
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-16 18:09
I'm a sax player firstly, though I studied clarinet well before taking up oboe, though oboe requires as much abdominal support as the others even though the breath resistance is very high.
My general philosophy for learning or playing any reed instrument is to 'make it as easy for yourself as possible', and 'there's no point in struggling' - by starting on a soft reed with the stock mouthpiece (provided it's well made and suited for a beginner), the player can learn to control the tone, volume, attack and tuning early on, and develop the muscular control much more steadily than playing on too hard a reed too soon.
It's like any excercise - start slowly and build up gradually. Muscular development, be it through weight training or clarinet playing requires beginning on the easiest weight that can be lifted or the easiest reed that can be played comfortably, not by struggling against a heavy weight and doing physical damage in the same way as struggling against a too reistant set-up and getting tired very quickly. There's nothing to be gained from that except disappointment or contempt as progression seems like a long way away.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-02-16 18:14)
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-02-16 18:29
Thanks Chris. I agree with the slow development of the embouchre and breathing muscles, starting on soft reeds. I think I forgot to mention that the aforementioned 2 students who are using the 4 V12s are teenagers who have been playing for at least 4 years. I don't plan on increasing their reed strength at all until they learn a thing or two about reed adjustment. Of course, the most important thing is that they can play comfortably, in tune, with a good sound so that they can develop the control needed to play musically. Have a nice day.
Lori
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-16 21:07
The problem I see with a lot of teenagers is that they're competing with their peers on who is playing on the hardest reed, as if playing on a harder reed than someone else is giving them a sense of superiority on someone else in their peer group.
But it's not, and it's having the opposite effect - playing on a harder reed isn't going to make them a better or more advanced player, it's going to hinder them and create more problems than it's going to solve.
On saxes I used to play on Rico Royal 4 reeds on a Dukoff D8 mouthpiece, but this played havoc with control on the low notes, and having to work hard caused tuning problems in the upper register.
But on clarinet I never ventured to any strengths above a Vandoren 3 on a close mouthpiece as I was studying clarinet with an exceptional teacher who I wanted to sound like, so I used a similar set-up as him. But even so, Vandoren 3s were generally regarded as the benchmark, even though I found them to be on the resistant side I didn't give in so as not to lose face with my peers - I even used a Bari plastic reed which was just the right strength for me, but as it was fairly anonymous to all others that held the Vandoren 3 in high regard, they had no idea I had been using what was in fact a softer reed, rather than the one that 'everyone uses'.
Currently I use V12 2.5 on my A1 crystal, on Eb clarinet (5RV) I use Vandoren 2.5 and on bass (Pomarico 3) I use Java tenor sax 2.5 or 3 depending on which works better at any given moment. But my main Bb mouthpiece is an M15 which I find a 56 Rue Lepic 3.5 or 3.5+ works well for me due to the close tip and long facing of this mouthpiece.
So even though your pupils may have been playing for four years, I don't think they've fully developed their embouchures well enough to be playing on a Vandoren 4. And even though they may protest about the idea of dropping a strength or several due to peer pressure (the usual 'because so-and-so plays on a 4, I have to better that' mentality all teenagers have), they ought to drop to as far as a 2.5 to see how they can get a good tone from that (and I'm sure they will), and how they can also benefit from playing on a much more pliable set-up. It won't do them any harm to try out a softer reed to see what can be done - they may even thank you for suggesting it if it helps them get around things much easier in practice.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-02-16 22:51
Chris,
I don't have them playing on 4's to give them a sense of superiority. I don't think they much care what the other kids are playing on. They're not the ones who picked the reed strength, I did. I did it because they sound better than they did on 3.5's. They are at an age where they are practicing pretty regularly and their embouchures are developed enough to use a 4 V12 on their mouthpieces. They do need to work on good air support and firming up the corners of the embouchure and how much mouthpiece to take in, but when reminded to do these things they sound much improved. I feel that these are skills that couldn't be accomplished on the softer reeds they were using before. These reeds close up on the mouthpiece when they blow openly and freely. The one who sounds loud and brash hasn't been with me for long, and she had a couple of auditions to prepare for right after she started studying with me, so I didn't want to mess with her mouthpiece yet since it can take time to get used to. She sounded much louder and brasher on the 3.5 than on the 4.
Rod_Rubber had the right idea in his posting in the Tips for Improving Setup thread a few days ago, in which you also ripped me for suggesting harder reeds and he came to my defense. He is right in that a properly balanced reed of higher strength will vibrate more freely than any one of medium strength, on most mouthpieces. The tips of the softer reeds are just to weak to stand up to much practicing. They close off.
You talked about your philosophy of making it easy for yourself and not struggling. I guess the philosophy that I have been taught and many others in the Gigliotti lineage go by is that you need some resistance in order to get a rich sound on a reed instrument. The resistance is either in your setup, or in your body, or both. Playing without enough resistance in your setup causes bad habits like clenching the throat or breathing muscles to make up for the lack of resistance in the setup. This kind of tension spreads into the neck and shoulders and embouchure, which can cause discomfort and lead to injury. Also, the tightness in the body can lead to a tight or pinched sound.
A setup of proper resistance will let you play with an open throat, deep supported breathing, and less overall body tension. Just slapping a 5 V12 on the mouthpiece right out of the box will probably not sound so hot, compared to a 3.5 right out of the box. But taking the time to finish the reed properly so that it vibrates evenly will pay off in a rich, chocolatey sound, provided good air support and embouchure and mouthpiece are used. Whereas, the 3.5 out of the box, unadjusted, will result in a thin, nasal sound without much ring to it (even though it may seem "easier" to play at first blow). I think if one is really picky about one's sound, clarinet playing is hard work, and there's no way around it. So, making it as easy as possible isn't always the way to go.
Lori
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-16 22:59
Yeah maybe, well I still don't understand why anyone wants to make things difficult for themselves.
I hardly ever adjust any of my reeds as I choose the ones from the box that work for me right away and keep the more resistant ones for use later on if I feel I can do with more resistance.
And as far as producing a thin nazal sound, I've never been accused of that.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-02-16 23:04
Chris,
I thought I heard a thin nasal sound as I was reading your last post, but no worries, it's just the whir of my computer fan.
Lori
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-16 23:09
Mine sides doth splitteth.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-02-17 01:02
I had been studying for about 6 years playing on Vandoren B40 when I moved from V-12 #2,5 to #3 and it's only about 3 years since I began to use V-12 3,5 on Bay H1 MO-L and I had then been playing on that mouthpiece with #3 reeds before.And 1 and 1/2 years ago I played on Bay H2 M-M with V-12 #3,5 and now for the last year I've been playing on Grabner AW with Gonzalez FOF #3,25 and when I try the Bay H2 M-M with V-12 #3,5 I find them way too soft. I also know that my teacher who plays professionaly use V-12 #3,5 on the same mouthpieces as another very good professional player use V-12 #3 on. There is also a woman playing with me in the marching band who use V-12 #3 on Vandoren B45 mouthpiece and she just sound like me or even sometimes like she's using a tiny bit too hard reeds(I tend to use too stiff reeds). There was a person here on the board telling me that he use V-12 #3,5 and 4 on his Grabner AW mouthpiece and I have to say that V-12 #4 is way too hard for me on that mouthpiece. My point is that you play on what you feel comfortable with and does not hinder you in any way. I think it also good to settle on a reed strenght and choose mouthpieces from there not the other way.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-02-17 03:31
Pabstboy were you asking me ? If so then I have to say no. I live in Iceland and have only apart from one masterclass with Dimitri Ashkenazy studied with Icelandic clarinetists. Although I'm planning to go to the David Campbell festival this summer. I've heard great things from the 2nd/Eb clarinetist in the Icelandic symphony orchestra <www.sinfonia.is> .
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Author: pabstboy
Date: 2007-02-17 04:37
Actually I was asking Claritoot. But I have heard a couple of recordings of Ashkenazy. He sounded great !!!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-02-17 05:04
I completely agree with Chris that most likely the reed is too hard. Anyway doesn't sound like a problem with the barrel at all. Reading this thread I just thank my first teacher who never made me play on reeds that were too hard or too soft than the ones that were best.
Lori wrote: "the 3.5 out of the box, unadjusted, will result in a thin, nasal sound without much ring to it".
How do you explain the fact that many professionals including some of the best and most successful players the world play this strength (which is a fact, as opposed to what you wrote as if it was a fact but actually is not)? Maybe this strength results in a think nasal sound for you, but for many players it works great.
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Author: D
Date: 2007-02-17 15:21
According to the Vandoren website the B45 is designed to be used with a V12 3 or 3.5. A RueLepic 3 or 3.5 or a traditional cut 2.5, 3 or 3.5.
In my personal experience the recommendations of the manufacturer are generally quite accurate.
I do join the others in saying that perhaps you ought to play the students clarinet yourself to eliminate the possibility of mechanical error. There could be all sorts of things stuck in the tone holes and whatnot
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-02-17 20:21
OK,OK! I was only speaking from personal experience and the way I was taught that works well for me. I suppose there are great professionals out there who use the softer reeds. I'll have to read up on that and do some listening, because the ones that I know around here tend to use the more resistant reeds. Pabstboy: No, I did not study with Gigliotti, but I studied with two prominent teachers who had studied with him. They both teach his way with the harder reeds. I also had a teacher in Massachusetts who had studied with Harold Wright, and he used the softer reeds, which just didn't work well for me. It seemed a very different style of playing to me, but he sounded fine.
So, let's agree to disagree. Different strokes for different folks and whatnot. Truce?
Will let you know the solution to the poor child's problem when we get it figured out.
Lori
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-18 14:37
I find it remarkable that so many are too quick to point the finger of blame at equipment faliure rather than even considering the fundamental fault is most likely with the player.
Talk about running around like headless chickens!
Go on then, spend a fortune on fancy barrels and pro clarinets only to find there's no change in sound, but a lot of wasted time and money.
Address the fundamental issue here first!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-02-18 15:05
I wasn't recommending a new pro clarinet or fancy barrel just yet (or were you responding to the other folks, Chris P?), only an upgrade from the B45 mouthpiece. For $60 or so, an improved tone quality is definitely worth it, even for a teenager who just wants to enjoy playing as a hobby. I had her try a slightly used Gennusa 1* mouthpiece yesterday which took a lot of the brightness out of her sound. The 13 series Vandorens dropped her pitch too much. Notice that in my first post I did mention the things she needs to work on (firmer embouchure especially up top was the main cause of the flatness up there.) So, I wasn't only pointing my finger at her equipment. Maybe I gave this thread the wrong subject heading. The issue I more wanted to address was the bright and brash sound rather than the intonation. I thought at first maybe the B45 didn't match her Y 450 clarinet and made the tuning off, but now realize her embouchure was just too loose. The intonation is ok when she uses proper embouchure. And, she is fine with playing the 4 V12s. She said she's not struggling. She finds some are harder than others, but that's normal in any box of reeds.
Anyway, we're closer to solving the problem. I did try her clarinet, and it's ok, but some of the low left hand notes (C thru F) are a bit flat.
Gotta go, concert today. We can drop this thread if you want.
Lori
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