 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: quilter_gal
Date: 2007-02-08 20:02
My daughter is a clarinet player, and wants to combine her love of the clarinet with her need to do a 7th grade science fair project. She wants to test the effect of temperature and/or humidity on the tonal quality of various thicknesses of reeds.
Is she better off using her "plastic" clarinet (Forte) or her wooden Buffet for the experiment?
Does anyone have any suggestions/input for her as she begins the project? The topic was just approved today so she is at square 1 right now.
Janet
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2007-02-08 20:28
One thing she might try is repeat my (inadvertent) experiment of a few years ago...
I left a humidifier (one of those evaporator types) on in my "music" room with the door closed overnight.
The next morning every reed I owned was about as usable as a piece of cooked pasta. Fortunately they (and my room) dried out in the natural course of things and were OK again.
Can't really offer an answer to your question, but I would think that a plastic instrument would not be effected much, and I wouldn't like to expose a good (expensive-?) Buffet to that sort of extreme. But the pads on either one might be badly effected by extreme humidity. Careful.
As a scientist, keep the number of variables under control - just use the plastic instrument or better just the mouthpiece attached to some sort of fixed length tube - that way the "only" variables are the reed, the humidity, and your daughter.
JDS
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Author: mk
Date: 2007-02-08 22:47
thats a good suggestion.....i concur....too many variables for the scope of the project....the other problem would be to measure her results. Does she have access to a physics lab?
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Author: quilter_gal
Date: 2007-02-08 23:13
On measuring, she was planning on using her tuning meter to measure how far from perfect pitch she was using each reed at a given humidity level. I believe she is limiting temp to a 10 degree range, and then varying the humidity (we have an instrument that measures humidity to nearest .1%). If need be, we can use the bathroom shower (steam) to artifically raise the humidity in a confined space.
Janet
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2007-02-08 23:21
A good question to try to answer is whether a soaking wet (well humidified, as in my room "experiment") reed in a simple mouthpiece and tube setup produces the same tone as one that is just wet enough to play at all.
The tone could be measured with a simple electronic tuner - wouldn't need a whole physics lab.
'Course, day to day variations in Janet Quilter Gal's daughter's embrochure might be a tough variable to control.
Maybe the wetness effect would be large enough to be "visible" through the variations in tone caused by embrochure changes. And then the next set of questions would involve seeing how the wetness effect might change with different reed strengths, or reed brands.
All experiments need a "control" - and a plastic (Legere) reed would do that - presumably wetness doesn't effect them at all. So the Legere reed would tell you what the "true" tone of the mouthpiece/tube setup should be -- the "natural" resonance frequency.
Worth a shot, anyway.
(This is getting to be a pretty sophisticated experiment for a 7th grader. More power to her.)
JDS
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-02-08 23:21
If she wants to examine reeds, all other factors should be as constant as possible, and that probably precludes the wooden horn IMHO, or the mouthpiece on the family's watering can.
Dunno how much eye candy is welcome in a science project - maybe she can soak reeds in coloured water (ink) and demonstrate how much and where a reed will absorb moisture. Show how it's getting warped.
Next attach each reed to a long stick, attach the far end somewhere and let the "reed end" rest on a surface (with the stick being at a ~30° angle) and measure how much each reed's tip is bent (this demonstrates the static suppleness).
Next give it a blow test on the clarinet. Do some simple spectral analysis of the sound (overtones and whatnot). Check the "open G" pitch of each reed sample. Is it the same? (And by all means, do a blind test - whoever is playing should not know what reed is being tested)
Then try to find out whether the soaking process is completely reversible by drying each reed, measuring again and blow-testing again.
Have a plastic reed available as a "neutral" sample.
Just some simple ideas. I'm not a scientist.
--
Ben
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2007-02-08 23:32
Careful, Janet Quilter Gal's daughter: If you want to study "wet" vs. "dry" reeds, try to keep the temperature & humidity of the surroundings CONSTANT.
The air temp and air moisture can also effect the tone produced, all other things being the same.
But if you DO want to see how much effect surrounding ("ambient" is the $2 word) air temp and humidity have on tone, then keep the reed the same. Use a Plastic one, I suppose, and do the bathroom shower trick.
JDS
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-02-08 23:34
> and do the bathroom shower trick.
I don't need a bathroom to produce gurgling tones. An hour of stiff practice usually suffices... ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: quilter_gal
Date: 2007-02-10 16:42
Here's a slightly new take on it - does the age of a reed affect the pitch? She's planning on using new reeds to eliminate that variable, but would older reeds be more suseptible to changes in humidity than newer reeds?
BTW - she did pick up a plastic reed to use as a control - who knew they even made plastic!
Thanks for all your help. We'll report back with the resutls (but be patient - this is a two year project - 7th grade you plan, 8th grade you do).
Janet
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Author: quilter_gal
Date: 2007-02-15 00:18
The research continues and a new question has arisen: does the pitch of a reed change as it ages? In other words, through being broken in, to the point where it must be discarded - will the pitch of that reed change? we've googled countless combinations of terms to try to find the answer and found nothing. If anyone here has any knowlege on this topic to share, we would greatly appreciate it.
7th Grade clarinet player/science student
and her mom
Janet
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-02-15 01:57
If a reed were a homogeneous, stable, isotropic material (uniform, unchaning and with no "grain"), its free vibration would depend only on its density, elastic modulus and shape/size.
One could make a reed to match an existing reed by matching density, material stiffness and shape --if one had a bit of material identical to that original.
In practice, material variation (stiffness, density, and grain) will vary between reeds; and there will be minor differences in dimensions.
Thus, the player is challenged to change each reed to meet his/er playing requirements --bringing the reed to a comfortable, controllable part of his/er set-up. This refinement demands that the reed be stabilized --by getting its moisture content (and the resulting material bulk density, stiffness and swollen shape) into equilibrium with the playing conditions.
That perfected reed will probably require an occasional "touch-up" with knife or sandpaper over its playing life.
Then, it will die.
What kills a reed?
As it absorbs water in use, it gets denser. It also changes shape as it swells. It might soften as the fibers fatigue with playing time. If wet cane swells and becomes more dense, the increased thickness will compensate somewhat for the increase in density.
In my imagination, its the loss of fiber integrity --stiffness that "kills" a reed with use. A bad day with humidity greatly different from that for which the reed was adjusted will shift the reed from its "tuned up" condition and challenge the player to make a reed change and/or pull out the adjuster.
But, does it matter that a reed changes with use, age, moisture content?
A clarinet reed on its own vibrates somewhere in the range of 2500-3500 Hz. When the player permits and encourages the formation of a note on the clarinet s/he is forcing the reed to slow its vibration to match the pitch of the vibrating air column.
When a note is started by tonguing, the reed will take off on its own for a few vibration cycles and then settle down to its steady tone production. When a note is slurred, the reed's vibration shifts from matching the original note to its new settled vibration frequency.
How fast the reed adapts to its new vibrating condition depends upon both its natural frequency of vibration AND on its damping. (Damping is the dissipation of vibration --not dampENing, getting it wet.) The player provides reed damping with his/er lower lip. That lip also changes the shape (length) and support of the reed and alters its natural vibration frequency.
If the reed's damping is insufficient, it might get out of control, ignore the coupling with the air column and squeak.
So, you've taken on a big problem --defining in-use changes of both temporary (humidity, break-in) and permanent (wear-out). Clearly a reed can go bad enough to require replacement. The player judges: can I live with this? Should I swap reeds? Should I scrape this one? Is this one ready for the kindling box?
Be sure to share your results with us.
The speed of these transitions will depend on the
Bob Phillips
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Author: mk
Date: 2007-02-17 20:43
I think her experiment would be alot easier to execute using a tuning fork rather than a clarinet and reed. But lets not forget that a flawed experiment is not uncommon in the scientific realm let alone a 7th grader.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-02-17 20:52
mk wrote:
> tuning fork
That's when half the orchestra plays at A=438 and the other at A=442 after the break, no?
--
Ben
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Author: mk
Date: 2007-02-26 00:34
You know if they would have just told me that reeds are not homogenous, stable, and isotropic, I would never had gotten hooked on this instrument....
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Author: Chalumeau Joe
Date: 2007-02-26 01:00
These references may be useful in your research (you'll need to pay for them, though):
Musical Quality Assessment of Clarinet Reeds Using Optical Holography (Pinard, Laine, and Vach)
Summary: Assesses the vibrational modes of 24 clarinet rees under both dry and wet conditions for their musical quality.
http://scitation.aip.org/vsearch/servlet/VerityServlet?KEY=FREESR&smode=strresults&sort=chron&maxdisp=25&threshold=0&possible1=clarinet&possible1zone=article&OUTLOG=NO&viewabs=JASMAN&key=DISPLAY&docID=26&page=2&chapter=0
Acoustic Properties of a Reed (Arundo donax L.) Used for the Vibratingn Plate of a Clarinet (Obataya and Norimoto)
Summary: Examines the effect of water-soluble extractives on the acoustic properties of a reed at various relative humiities.
http://scitation.aip.org/vsearch/servlet/VerityServlet?KEY=FREESR&smode=strresults&sort=chron&maxdisp=25&threshold=0&possible1=clarinet&possible1zone=article&OUTLOG=NO&viewabs=JASMAN&key=DISPLAY&docID=40&page=2&chapter=0
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-02-26 08:47
I'm not sure the pitch will change with humidity, as it's basically controlled by the instrument, not the reed. The character of the tone, however, I'm sure will change. I'm also beginning to be sure that different players like their reeds in different states of water take-up, and that different reeds play best with different levels of water take-up, and that who chooses what to play on depends on where you live and how you blow the instrument. Potentially a monster of a project, but it would be nice for someone to have a go at it.
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Author: kev182
Date: 2007-02-26 20:32
if you wanna test under different temperature i would get rico reed vitalizer. they keep humidity to 1% of 58, 72 or 82 humidity levels
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-02-27 02:47
quilter_gal,
The plastic clarinet will be less affected by its environment so that it is the better choice for the test instrument, as long as its condition is unchanged for the duration of the testing.
She will need to define what she means by "tonal quality", and have a means of measuring it.
The biggest variable, and least susceptible to control in an experiment, may be the player's embouchure, especially at the student level.
Reeds are thin and don't take long to become very wet when they are played, so that the ambient indoor humidity, which probably won't exceed 45% in a Canadian winter, doesn't seem likely to make the reed wetter than it will become by playing. A burnished reed may be less absorbent.
My sax reeds (for clarinet I use a Legere) are kept in a tight case that contains a drying agent so that they are always at the same humidity before I wet them to play them; i.e., quite dry. Maybe she could compare the "tonal quality" of a dry reed like this after 5 minutes of playing compared to how it sounds after 5 minutes of playing when it has been kept in normal house humidity, and repeat the test with several reeds to eliminate variances in individual reeds.
A Legere reed might be useful for the temperature test, since it would eliminate every other variable except embouchure.
Hans
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-02-27 03:46
It's beginning to sound to me as though determining the effect of temperature and humidity on the growth of mold on reeds might be easier to pull off. ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
Best regards,
jnk
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