 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-02-07 22:33
Hi all, I've been thinking alot about professional instruments and generic instruments and how they are produced seperately albeit France and Germany just to name a few. What made it so popular to designate France as a representative of professional quality instruments? By dubbing anything from France is professional, we carry a bias towards anything un "French" as inferior. Was this just a marketing stunt? or is production just cheaper there in France? Or let me ask this, are there more professional musicians in France than anywhere else? Sorta like the hub of musicians?
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: larryb
Date: 2007-02-08 00:05
At the Bucharest Convention of 1873, there was near unanimous agreement among the delegates that France should thenceforth be designated as the official and only country in which French wind instruments could be manufactured. The Belgian and Walloon delegations walked out and did not vote during the final plenary session.
With those two delegations absent for the second round of voting, Germany was able to win by aclamation official designation as the only manufacturer of German wind instruments, despite the vigorous objection of Austria and Switzerland. But they could only object and not prevent the final vote, due to the absence of the Belgians and Walloons.
Bismark noted shortly thereafter that the Bucharest Convention was his finest achievement, settling all matters concerning French and German clarinet production until 1914.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-02-08 01:14
Many TKS, Larry, very interesting-illuminating. I had often wondered about this "ancestry", some "skullduggery" [sp?] back then !!! It may have ended in 1914 [WW I], but history seems to have preserved it. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-02-08 01:59
Along the same lines, and probably generated by their thoughts on instrument manufacturing,
The same convention also controls the dispatch of criminal fugitives:Makes one think, doesn't it.
http://bar.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1901/5.html
(obtained from a search on the Budapest Convention of 1873, which leads me to believe that larry is yanking on our collective downspouts)
I understand that German craftsman, seeking some freedom from Guild controls, emigrated to France in the early 1800's
Other luthiers arrived from other areas. Although I have no first source knowledge of this, someone once told me that the Selmer family had origins in Armenia. Perhaps someone could comment on this.
The French have undergone shifts in population owing to immigration, and the government upholds labor laws which might seem arcane to observers from other nations, depending or whether you work for a business or manage one.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2007-02-08 02:02)
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-02-08 05:41
I guess the basic question of why Selmer, Buffet and Leblanc are in France. Schreiber, Keilwerth etc are in Germany.
maybe they lived there?
But more importantly, why did they start making instruments? Was it due to the churchs and their "music" as they worked with young composers .. and where there are composers, instrument makers would soon follow ?
kinda a curious question.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-02-08 07:52
the answer is simple. it has been found that the word 'France' printed on the clarinet results in a more brilliant sound. 'Germany' gives a darker sound.
-S
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-08 08:11
"it has been found that the word 'France' printed on the clarinet results in a more brilliant sound. 'Germany' gives a darker sound."
Not always the case, though one would like to assume that - compare a Kreul oboe with a Marigaux, and the Marigaux definitely has the darker sound of the two - so it's little wonder why German players love Marigaux oboes.
And comparing Schreiber's wooden student Buffet clarinets (E11/E12) with (French) Buffet student clarinets (E13 and C12) - the Buffets have much more depth of tone in comparison.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2007-02-08 08:26
Paris was the centre of the musical world in the second half of the19th Century, as Vienna was previously. This was the time when the modern clarinet was evolving. There was probably the greatest concentration of musicians there, so it made sense for the 'service industries' of instrument manufacturers to set up there. In the C20th, with French jazz being centred in the Bohemian district of Montmartre (sp?), it made sense for the clarinet manufacturers to expand into saxophones as well. Vandoren's Jazz reeds, 56 Rue Lepic, are named after the address of Vandoren. Looking at a map of Paris, Rue Lepic runs right through Montmartre. It's not that 'French is best', it's just that because of the concentration of musicians in Paris during the clarinet's formative years.
On the same note, Italian violins, Stradavarius, Amati are considered the best, not beause they are Italian, but because the best makers were in Venice, which was the centre of musical life when the violin evolved at the end of C17th.
There may be other political historical reasons as well. My understanding is simply that the makers went to where their markets were.
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Author: Kruzi
Date: 2007-02-08 08:54
In the 19th century the German Iwan Mueller occupied himself with the further development of the clarinet.
Though he had a fulltime-job as a clarinetist in the russian tzar`s chamber orchestra in St Petersburg he
studied the mechanical keywork of the clarinet and developed it further.
In 1809 Mueller gave his first concert on a clarinet that had been built to his specifications in vienna.
The concert on the clarinet omnitonique must have been a sensation.He claimed that every scale
could be played on this instrument so that the sets of clarinets with different middle joints
would be superfluous from now on.
Mueller had improved the clarinet`s tonehole and pad design. During that time the clarinets had simple
toneholes like you can still find them on recorders. Mueller gave them the shape they have today,
a tiny bit closer to the inner bore and equipped
with sharp edges to ensure a better covering of the tonehole by the pads. He also replaced the felt pads
with leather pads that had a soft wool filling.
The order of the keys and the tonehole net was also overworked completely, resulting in a
much better sound and intonation of the instrument.
After he had developed this newly designed clarinet Mueller opened up his own workshop
to build his own line of clarinets. He was sure that its` success would be tremendous.
In 1812 was the year of decision for Iwan Mueller. He presented his clarinet to a commission
from the Conservatoire of Paris and the future of his invention was decided - to his disadvantage.
The Clarinette Omnitonique was completely refused by the commission.
This because the musicians of the Conservatoire à Paris feared that such a versatile clarinet
would make all the clarinets in different tunings obsolete. This would mean a loss of many instruments
for the Conservatoire - in their eyes a financial disaster. And because of this the Clarinette Omnitonique was
refused.
Iwan Mueller had to immedeately stop producing clarinets and shut down his workshop.
But despite this he kept on with the development of the instrument and came up with some more improvements
like the use of an adjustable metal ring holder for the reed that could be attached with a single screw in the middle.
The same system that is used in most modern ligatures today and makes the traditional fiddling around the mouthpiece
with a long thread like a snake-charmer to keep the reed in position superfluous.
Despite the conservative position of conservatory clarinetists and those in other elitary circles and pompous places
there were still people to whom carrying a single clarinet instead of a whole bunch of them for not
missing any tone seemed to be very practical. The military. During the following period in
clarinet`s evolution the military bands have been thankful customers to the clarinet makers
everywhere and ensured them a constant income from raising orders of proper band instruments.
Although the first reactions to an all-in-one clarinet solution were quite negative, the clarinetists couldn`t resist that long to this new temptation: Most of the professional clarinetists had to visit the woodwind maker`s workshop from time to time for repairs and overhauls they had no chance to reject themselves from progress.
It was just like it is today - you bring your instrument to the woodwind doctor, and besides some smalltalk the masterbuilder proudly shows you some of his new instruments and hands them over to you to let you testplay them and hear your opinion. You try them out and get blown away by the beauty, ergonomy, ease pf playing, sounds and versatility of this superb clarinet and on your way home you can`t stop thinking about trading in your old clarinet to the new one which seems to be significantly better than your actual one;-)
Take what you`ve got and make the best of it!
Post Edited (2007-02-08 09:01)
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Author: beejay
Date: 2007-02-08 12:17
The Hotteterre family from La Couture Boussay were well-known musicians and instrument makers (mostly flutes, oboes and parlor bagpipes) in Paris, but their center of production was in the lower Normandy countryside. Because of the proximity of Versailles and surrounding chateaux, there were plenty of furniture makers skilled at turning wood, who also became adept at producing instruments. In addition, the region was and still is rich in boxwood, the root of which was used in instrument production, as well as for making combs and all sorts of household goods.
The Buffet family also came from La Couture Boussay, which is where Leblanc still has its headquarters in France as does, I believe, Marigaud for oboes.
For much of the 19th century, instrument making was largely artisanal, and provided a source of income to farming communities during the winter months.
The invention of the saxophone made steam presses necessary, and instrument factories were set up in the nearest big town, Mantes-La-Jolie. Buffet Crampon and Selmer are still there, a few yards from one another on the same street.
By the way, I'm back. Someone said I wouldn't be able to run from the Internet for very long, which has turned out to be true. But I did manage to get through a lot of books during my absence.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-02-08 14:34
I echo Dave's greeting, beejay. This history of cl mfgr/playing is fascinating, I opened Al Rice's book [Classical Period] to Chap 2,where the developments are given in fine DETAIL. I believe Rendall also goes into great detail, but, at least so far, I haven't found anything on the Bucharest/Bismark? influence, so TKS again to all. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: blokecalledpaul-drums-clarinet
Date: 2007-02-08 15:23
The significance of France?
Your right, we should all buy our wine from Australia.
I mean fancy giving in to the germans!
Paul
If the world didnt suck we would all fall off ![[up]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley24.gif)
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-02-08 16:38
Notwithstanding all of the above, all of the major clarinetists in the US emigrated or were imported from France during the first years of the former century to play in the orchestras being formed at and around that time: Gaston Hamelin,Daniel Bonade, and Ralph McLane all came from there or returned as Mclane to study with Hamelin. Those three are enough to form much of the basis of the so-called North-American School. They came with their sounds, their articulations and their limpid musicality.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-02-08 16:48
It seems only in the latter half of the last century players like Karl Leister and Alfred Prinz have left a definable mark on European clarinet and North American as well. I think the German sound and Viennesse school of playing are making a definite impression...players like Combs and Bill Jackson definitely sound far more germanic than the previous more french sounding North American players. I believe Bonade was born in Switzerland?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-02-08 17:03
Lest we forget, World War I and World War II had the effect of giving Germanic countries some bad press for awhile.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: cuscoclarinet
Date: 2007-02-08 19:19
Re: Mike Clarinet's comment
"On the same note, Italian violins, Stradavarius, Amati are considered the best, not beause they are Italian, but because the best makers were in Venice, which was the centre of musical life when the violin evolved at the end of C17th."
I must contest two things.
1- Strad, Amati (and Guarneri, why does everyone forget Guarneri) were not considered the best because of where they were from and its proximity to the center of music, but because they were great inovators in the transition between the baroque "Viol di Gamba" and the modern violin we all know, not to mention that they did produce amongst the finest violins ever made.
2- While the center of musical activity at the time (mid 17th- early 18th century) may have been Venice, all three of the "old master" luthiers lived and worked in Cremona, some 300 KM from Venice, which then, as today, was the world center of fretless lutherie.
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2007-02-09 11:03
larry :
belgium : 60 % flemish ( dutch language )
35% french ( walloons )
5% german speaking
( percentages are more or less correct )
yes , we live in a multicultural country. Very difficult to decide which clarinet style to play :-)))
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