 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: marzi
Date: 2007-02-01 19:31
okay,how is it we have high school students(mostly clarinets ) coming into our orchestra every semester and they have no idea about tuning? are music teachers in schools no longer concerned about tuning. ? its not 1 school, either, although they do tend to come in groups from 1 school or another at a time,, one friend brings another and so on, but still its not just 1 program or teacher. our community group is going to the unprecendetd step of bringing in someone to specially work with them on this, its driving the conductor and the rest of us, to distraction now.
i was asked to try to get the section in tune last time which wore me out. in fact i think the director got wind of the fact that by the last person i was getting downright cranky,(well, they didn't think they had to tune!) so thought better of asking me again to do this.hehe.
"in my time" long time ago! in high school(or jr high or elementary for that matter) we were taught, and had to tune regularly. and i went to several different schools. are they just not paying attention? its become quite the learning experience for them anyway!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-02-01 20:12
Hi Marzi,
I'm not sure who we are or what your position is or what orchestra you are referring to. Maybe I missed something here but are you a clarinet player, director, teacher, student, or what.
If you can be a little more explicit, perhaps I can be more helpful with an answer.
HRL (a former HS band director who has stopped being horrified about such things long ago)
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Author: Cosmicjello
Date: 2007-02-01 20:19
Perhaps a better questions might be, what is proper tuning etiquette and what is not. Then how do we address the problems and re-enforce the positives.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-02-01 21:41
In high school, our idea of tuning was to ensure that the tuner declared us in tune at the start of rehearsal. I hardly think we were an isolated case. The mere concept of intonation varying note to note was quite foreign.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Detru Cofidin
Date: 2007-02-01 22:16
In my high school concert band, we used to tune every day by the oboes, and occasionally by me (1st clarinet). For most of my classmates, this was simply a time to play a note at forte without even listening, and as most bands tend to play sharp, you could notice after the in-tune oboe was playing, that the note produced by the band was at least ten cents sharp.
We got a new conductor this year who didn't tune at all first semester, and I convinced him to have us tune everyday, and now, all we do is play an F concert scale really slow...at forte. I would say most of my classmates haven't got a clue about how to tune properly, or even listen properly.
Nicholas Arend
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-01 22:23
It's not just students of high school age that can't tune - I know too many adult players that can't tune.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2007-02-01 22:31
As a former school band director, I know how much there is to accomplish and how little time there seems to be.
I think many directors are also uncomfortable dealing with intonation issues in any depth. Even those who take the time to tune at the beginning of rehearsals may not have the ability to really tell students what is going on and how to fix it throughout a rehearsal. I'm not saying this to call them down because it is a difficult skill and they have so much on their plate as teachers.
The thing is, if a group really concentrates on improving intonation, they sound better and fuller as an ensemble.
I congratulate marzi for being so aware of this issue. Just knowing about it helps a lot. Being willing to spend the time listening critically during rehearsals, working with a tuner and/or a tuning CD method can make it more bearable. I think very few musicians ever have to stop dealing with intonation not matter how good they are.
johng
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: sockmonkey70
Date: 2007-02-01 22:43
My highschool band director was actually very concerned with tuning. Sometimes at rehearsal if we were off, he would make us spend the entire rehearsal tuning with one another by ear. We had this tuning excercise that started with the flutes, the 1st chair flute played a note, and the whole band would come in once chair at a time..but when we hit someone out of tune who wouldn't adjust we had to start over again. He also liked for us to tune against the tuner everyday outside of class to become aware of which notes are consistantly sharp or flat so we can adjust.
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-02-02 07:52
I help out with two informal college student groups that play for English-American folk dancing. All the students have the same problem. Mostly fiddles, but I suspect if there were clarinets, it would be the same. Some of these kids are technically brilliant, but still don't play in tune. With violins it's of course different; you have to tune all the strings and you have to maintain intonation without the assistance of frets, and thus develop an ear for in-tune playing. Yet somehow, tuning is left for last on the player's agenda -- including mine -- when I played as a kid, I was the same way. It seems to be more important to get all the notes right in a piece, move one's fingers with alacrity, than to play in tune. Tempo control comes in a close second in deficiency. I should stress that these are not performance majors and neither college has a conservatory nor is known for graduating professional musicians, but they have bands, orchestras, chamber groups, etc.
It is only when the students start playing in small groups, whether those be our groups, chamber groups, or their own bands of whatever kind, that they begin to pay attention to tuning and intonation. When it's no longer about how fast and how correctly you can play the notes in a competitive manner in relationship to your peers (such as in trying to unseat them in their chairs), but about convincing your peers that you actually sound good in the mutually cooperative goal of blending and making music together, is when you begin to make the effort to play in tune and correct the other "minor" issues of tempo control, dynamics, etc. The same was the case for me.
In other words, unless you're dealing with kids who are destined to be professionals or very, very high amateurs (and perhaps not even then) will you get tuning and intonation resolved. It will otherwise happen only when it matters personally to them. A small group performing at a student coffee house or a rock band, for example, will make a bigger effort to play in tune than a conductor-led concert band.
Steve Epstein
Post Edited (2007-02-02 08:04)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-02-02 12:06
Tuning starts with hearing. My grammar school band director started off our beginning class with exercises that were loads of fun and didn't involve trying to play in-tune notes on these instruments we didn't know how to play yet. He brought in some recordings (1950s--these were big, reel-to-reel tapes that I think were student bands recorded at band festivals), played passages and asked, "What's wrong here?" He'd selected examples of the most obvious sins committed by student groups--mostly bad intonation and breakdowns where synchronization fell apart. He wanted to teach us to listen to each other and to watch the director and follow the beat. In the first lessons, he gave us huge clues--for the sour intonation examples, he'd cringe, make faces, put his hands over his ears, etc.--total giveaways, to make sure the kids got the answer right the first time. Then he gradually got more subtle, until by the end of the year, he stood up front with a complete poker face and expected us to detect fairly subtle problems.
He did tune us at the beginning of every class. He had a tuning fork, and used it to settle disputes (which he encouraged!), but we tuned by ear. I think tuning by ear, instead of watching a needle, is important. Can't prove it scientifically, but I have the impression that tuning to the needle involves a different part of the brain and that I'm not *listening* as well if I tune to an electronic device.
He also reacted in memorably dramatic fashion to train wrecks and bad intonation in rehearsals. He'd flail around, kicking arms and legs wildly as he pretended to try to keep time with the kids who were out of sync, made "sucking a lemon" faces for sour notes, pretended to twist his ears as if they were radio knobs and sometimes even screamed in pretend-pain and clapped his hands over his ears as he stopped us. Some of the brass boys would play horrible noises now and then just to get him to put on a show. When one of the drummers jokingly pounded out a random mess to accompany one of these performances, the band director's feigned protest was really encouragement. Afterwards, we fell into the habit of turning a train wreck into something that *really* sounded like a train wreck as the conductor whacked his stand with his baton to stop us.
These lessons were highly effective, I think, in large part because he made our mistakes seem like part of a normal, creative learning experience instead of a grim humiliation. He always had good instructions on what to do to solve a specific problem and he put us in the frame of mind to *listen* to him and to ourselves. I've mentioned here before that, by today's standards, he was terribly sexist, but I liked him so much that his ideas (old-fashioned even for the 1950s) didn't deeply traumatize me or anything like that. I didn't think that disagreeing with him was the biggest calamity in the world--and neither did he. Our band (and the bands he taught generally--he directed at two other grade schools and a junior high school) usually walked off with the highest scores at the local festivals. Judges often mentioned that we played better in tune than the other bands.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2007-02-02 12:57
Wow - I'm speechless at the lack of tuning you people speak of. I am a high school band director, and we spend the first 5 minutes of every rehearsal on tuning and balance. It varies from day to day, but we will usually:
1) Get a tuning note (A) from the clarinet. Make sure the tuba is in tune with the clarinet, then tuba gives a Bb for the brass.
2) play chorales, tuning individual chords if needed.
3) play a circle of 4th excersise in various combinations (so students are sometimes the root of the chord, the third, 5th, 7th, etc. depending on what I say at the beginning of the rehearsal. It's a system we have set-up from day 1)
4) we always end up by playing a chorale, putting in a repeat, singing the chorale, then playing the last chord.
I understand the time crunch as well as anyone. But those 5 minutes do more than have the students play in tune. It puts them in a listening mode, where they are constantly listening for pitch, balance, blend, tone quality, etc. I don't let up on sound or pitch, so neither do they. The singing every day is something I just started 2 years ago, and it has paid off HUGE. It really helps.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-02-02 13:26
Well......uh..........tuning clarinets used to be a little easier twenty years or so ago when we were ALL sharp and the director merely had you pull out a little....a little more....a little more, until you reached some semblance of pitch. These days our "darker" mouthpieces tend to put a lot of us LOW and no amount of footstomping and 5th circling will fix that short of a hack saw.
Marzi has my sympathy.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-02-02 14:38
If you're tuning to an instrument, it's polite for whoever is playing the tuning note to pull out a little. Doesn't matter what the tuner thinks the note is. There might be people out there with flatter instruments, and if they have to tune to a fully pushed-in instrument, they'll have no chance...
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-02-02 15:10
Sound of closet door opening, .....
I have lousy intonation, always have, always will.
I played bassoon in high school and only realized 15-years later that I was NEVER in tune --and nobody cared! No one ever told me to shape up, either.
These days, my set-up is very close to that of my private teacher, and we're seldom painfully dissonant (except when I let my cheeks puff, or fail to support a big jump).
In my ensembles, I often find myself clashing. Finally, I can hear "MY BAD," but its still 50/50 whether I'll move in the right direction. Sometimes, I'll be flat and try to drop my pitch instead of lifting it. I'm becoming aware of which way the notes on my horn drift away from proper pitch and can often anticipate an upcoming tuning challenge. BUT, I'm just beginning to learn to listen.
I wish that my teachers had spent time like some of the responders do with their groups.
I also think that hearing intonation and watching it on a needle are different exercises; and that listening beats the by-rote tuner watching.
Good intonation is so rare that it is shockingly beautiful to hear an ensemble play in tune. Our local chorale did it in December. WOW The Spokane Symphony brass did a Correlli that was spectacular --like sitting inside a freshly tuned organ. HEAVEN!
But, I think the general intonation problem is caused by bad teaching.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-02-02 15:21
Bassie,
IMHO you should not do that as A 440 is the standard in this country. When I practice, that's what I use and the correct barrel for 440. Should I then have to tune lower for any group I am in, I now have a gap between the barrel and the top section. While that can be a problem, why introduce the possibility.
A cold or warm rehearsal or concert/gig location is another issue. I have a 68mm Moenig barrel for very hot days.
HRL
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Author: marzi
Date: 2007-02-02 17:27
well, i'll bring the hacksaw, but darn it i'm already pulled out, and i still have to be in tune with the rest of the orchestra. Besides, we are tuning to the oboe when they're present.I am just a community player myself, not a teacher, no credentials to teach students. Maybe the orchestra should buy them all tuners and better clarinets. I am just surprised being that the bands they come from go to these NYSMMA festivals for scores, so I would've thought they had some basics of tuning. I suppose as schools get larger, more students per teacher, less time overall. I thought about suggesting to our conductor that not all the players should play in the parts where clarinets stick out and keeping it to just a couple ala a true orchestra, but A) some feelings might get hurt and B) what about the paying students?vs community members? we are a mix. well,despite the long post,I am not losing sleep over it, just wondering how things are in the rest of the world.
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2007-02-02 20:04
I think one problem is that so many young students want super "dark" tones and so they end up playing on really hard reeds. Playing on reeds that are too hard make it very hard for students to adjust pitch because the reed is just not flexible enough. It also creates a need to bite really hard with the lower Jaw which leads to all sorts of problems.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-02-02 21:49
Hank:
I'd hardly say 440 is the standard. And even if you ARE striving for 440, there are different ways about it. In college, my wind ensemble would take a tuning note at 438, knowing full well that the quickly warming instruments would reach 440 in no time, as opposed to tuning to 440 and spiraling even higher within minutes, with some instruments struggling to keep to 440 and others going with what they hear.
Thread in general:
Also, I'd say another problem is that a very high percentage of musicians have never played anything really in tune, but only just get reasonably close, so they don't even know what it sounds like. Playing in tune, especially in a section, can be uncomfortable at first, because it can feel like you're not playing at all (i.e. you can't differentiate your sound from everyone else's, so you begin to wonder if it's even there). To compensate, many players will play louder (thus ruining the blend and intonation) or simply subconsciously define themselves a comfort zone of slightly flat or sharp.
This is where the twangy, swirly sound that is so characteristic of most band clarinet sections (at all levels) comes from, and once you've heard it actually in tune, it's infuriating to hear otherwise.
SO... I suggest that it's not a matter of equipment, of tuning ahead of time, of what pitch you're using or who you're getting it from. Those will get you pretty far, and will sound relatively in tune (and sound great to the untrained ear). Rather, the most significant barrier between an ensemble and crisp, clear intonation (sounding like one big clarinet) is often the unwitting self-sabotage of performers themselves.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-02-03 11:44
I agree. Pitch is what is in the air at the moment. You're intune when you match the other guys. There is also a matter of whether intune means that you justify every chord (like a barbershop quartet) or continue with the tempered system as you play. Since we are not playing pianos we naturally tend to raise the leading tone and lower the third without thinking. Maybe we should just continue not to think.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-02-03 12:16
Alex,
I beg your pardon but from Wikepedia:
"In 1939, an international conference recommended that the A above middle C be tuned to 440 Hz. This standard was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 (and was reaffirmed by them in 1975) as ISO 16. Since then it has served as the audio frequency reference for the calibration of pianos, violins, and other musical instruments."
Although this source may not be the most convincing to some, I believe my statement to be accurate. What your college wind ensemble did is up to the director.
HRL
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-02-03 12:43
Another thing teachers can do is make sure the family piano gets tuned. So many kids take piano lessons--and if their sense of pitch comes from a wreck of a piano-shaped object, they're doomed. I had a strange experience with my own piano, a Yamaha Clavinova that doesn't need visits from a tuner because it's electronic. I spend more time practicing keyboards than I do on clarinets. I noticed that my clarinets were starting to sound flat to me in the *clarion* register. I have relative pitch, not absolute pitch, but clearly something had gone wrong. That flatness was driving me nuts. Finally, I began to get suspicious of my piano. Was something the matter with it? Was it somehow *re-training* my pitch?
Since the piano is basically a computer, I pulled up the tuning program, and sure enough, it was waaaaaaay stretch-tuned. Some stretch-tuning is normal on a piano. The treble skews a little sharper the higher up you go. Well, the factory got a bit too wildly enthusiastic with this piano. Fortunately, on a good electronic piano, the simple solution is to re-program it. (It's also got pre-sets and will switch to various antique tuning systems.) I reeled that treble back in to Steinway standards. Within a few weeks, my clarinets sounded normal to me again.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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