 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bellflare
Date: 2007-01-30 20:03
Hello.
I noticed that CAD and Nady and also some "importers" are now marketing low cost ribbon microphones.
The old RCA models are prized and costly, but these new ones are fairly cheap.
The gear reviewers and the merchants say they are good for "instruments' but they only mention how the mikes work for guitars and drums.
Reviews do not address how ribbon mikes work for clarinet.
Does anyone have any experience with them recording clarinet or flute or oboe?
Thank you.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-01-30 20:41
Search the Klarinet list archives for postings by Ben Maas, who's a professional recording engineer and a professional-level clarinetist.
He says that for recording clarinet, he uses Coles ribbon microphones. If you have to ask what they cost, you can't afford them (around $3,000 a pair).
I have Neumann KM83 condensers, which are as good as anything I've heard. The current model, KM183, goes for half the price of the Coles, but needs an external power supply.
Ribbons are finicky and fragile, with extremely close tolerances. I'd say that you get what you pay for. Certainly I wouldn't order an unknown model without comparing it to a good condenser.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-01-31 00:21
Over the past five years, I have acquired three or four books that claim to explain amplification and recording techniques for instrumental music. The amount of text addressing the miking of wind instruments amounts to about the same volume as one Don Berger posting on this service. Of course, all of these books are written by folks from the rock industry, so what do you expect?
Reading these tomes is a lot like a journey into Bizarroland. They go to extreme lengths to describe how to mike the amps attached to the guitars (in effect, double amplifying the signal) os as to pump out incredible amounts of what amounts to noise and distortion, while devoting next to nothing on how to capture a flute. But, considering that most of their work revolves around rock, it's understandable.
For most purposes, an adequate condenser microphone will do the job. When you get into something other than convenience recording, the best approach is to seek out someone who "knows" sound and have them lend you the benefit of their knowledge.
My "captive" expert, who's now over in Saudi Arabia, liked to use condensers for the reeds and various weird mikes for the other stuff. Don't know why, though...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-01-31 01:22
Terry Stibal wrote:
> Of course, all of these
> books are written by folks from the rock industry, so what do
> you expect?
A little biased, are we?
Mark C., former bass player, too.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2007-01-31 17:49
Ribbon mics can be overdriven (audibly distort) and even broken by high SPLs.
They have a rather steep roll-off at higher extremes and can add coloration to ambient sounds during recording - all problems that are amenable to repair at the mix station.
Why use them? They lovingly capture nuance and detail in the range of the human voice, and that of instruments in the same frequency spectrum.
I'm with Ken, the Neumann condensers are hard to beat, and durable.
I use a Shure VP88 for site recording direct to hard disc, and that's what I can afford - this rig is unforgiving to small rooms, but well suited to medium sized halls, where I do my occasional recordings.
If you do employ a ribbon mic for the clarinet or sax, take some precautions when taping your first loud passages, and "ride" the mic for best balance - otherwise it will be relentless in pointing out where the note arose.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-01-31 20:34
Not so much bias against rock as is pointing out that the available literature is aimed exclusively at the rock and pop industry, and all but ignores the rest of the musical world. In one of the works, there is a four paragraph discussion of how to located the mikes up against a guitar amp, with all sorts of angle considerations and the like, while the horn mike "section" consisted of two brief declarative sentences (as I recall it; it may have been three).
And, what there is pointed at wind instruments often ignores issues like where to locate the mike and the like. You mike a bassoon quite differently than you do a flute, for example.
In any event, it's even worse with lighting equipment. I have yet to find a text that covers the programmable lighting systems that are available (the ones where a push of a button changes the light "scene" automatically). You can do some really neat lighting effects with minimal disruption to your operation (I'm gunning for the Trumpet IV to operate them), if only you can figure out how to work the damn programmer.
Apparently in the modern theatrical lighting world, it is all done by verbal communication and ESP, and no one bothers to write anything down. It's a lot different from when I was involved in it back in the 1960's (classic theatrical lighting at a theater).
By the way, my group plays mostly pop and rock stuff, along with the Sinatra classics and the like...
(Thus sayeth the current baritone sax/bass clarinet/clarinet player who spends more time with R & B these days than he does with Mozart...)
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2007-02-01 01:54
<<<Ribbon mics can be overdriven (audibly distort) and even broken by high SPLs.>>>
This would be a non-issue for most modern ribbon mics. In fact, ribbon mics are inherently a lot less sensitive than condenser mics, and require high quality preamps that have a lot of gain, and low noise. They are, however more sensitive to air blasts, so if used in any situation where air is moving (e.g. wind, ventilation, pops from close vocal recording, etc.) they need to be protected. One other thing you need to be careful about with ribbon mics is the 48 volt phantom power that's available in a lot of mic preamps for use in powering condenser mics. Normally it shouldn't cause problems, but it you had an incorrectly wired mic cable, you could fry your ribbon in a split second. It pays to keep phantom power off on preamps used with ribbons just to be safe.
Currently I have a pair of AEA R84's and a Royer SF12 stereo mic in my mic arsenal that I usually use with a Millennia pre. Either of these mics would sound splendid on a clarinet, imparting a warm, open and smooth sound. I've yet to have difficulties with these mics, but I primarily use them in my pro recording studio. Ribbons can sound very flattering, and seem to have a way of minimizing extraneous instrument noises, and harshness. In contrast, condensers are generally a bit more accurate, but can be more clinical (especially when used at close range). Another nice thing about ribbons is that they can make a small recording space seem bigger.
Providing you had the requisite amount of gain, I think the ribbons could end up sounding better (more smooth and open) than condensers. Condenser mics would generally sound a bit more "hyped," especially at close range (which might be a nice quality, depending on the context). For picking up a nice, stereo image of an ensemble at a distance, small diaphragm condensers work well, because they're a lot more sensitive. I've had really good results with my DPA, 130 volt omni stereo A/B, pair.
On the pro audio scene, it's undeniable that recently designed ribbon mics are really hot these days. There are a lot of ribbons being sold, and they are very much showing up in applications where large diaphragm condensers have been traditionally used. From a price vs. quality standpoint, again providing you have decent preamps that can handle them, ribbons can compare very favorably against high-end condensers (especially Neumans, which have gotten extremely expensive in the U.S. because of the weakening of the dollar). For instance, an AEA R84 lists for $1,100. A Neuman M149 lists for $5,800. I personally own both of these mics, and would generally choose the R84 for use on things like clarinet, sax, trumpet, etc. over the M149.
I also have a Shure VP88, and I've really had good results on certain things with it. The VP88 was primarily designed for location and ENG (electronic news gathering) use. They are very often mounted on top of video cameras with a specially designed isolation mount. Considering the pedigree of the VP88, it works amazingly well in a lot other situations. One thing I've always appreciated about the VP88 is how well its stereo field collapses for mono compatibility. It never causes problems in that department.
If you do opt for a ribbon, one important thing to remember about them is that they have a "figure 8" pickup pattern. In other words, they pick up from both the front and the back. In a room with good acoustics, this is no problem. If, however, you're recording in a small room with poor acoustics, it's often beneficial to put some absorbent material (insulation, foam, etc.) a few inches behind the ribbon to minimize the pick up of reflections from the wall in front of you (which would add boinky-ness to the sound). Actually, this is a good practice for many condenser mics, too. Recently, the SE microphone company introduced a product called the "Reflexion Filter" which does a superb job of containing the sound that would otherwise be reflected back into the mic.
These days, with extremely excellent software convolution reverbs available at reasonable prices, if you can minimize any telltale reflections the cue a listener into the fact that you're performing in a small room, you can use convolution to put yourself in any acoustic space you desire.
BTW, one noticeable difference you'll find between certain brands and models of ribbon mics is the amount of proximity effect (or bass boost on things miced at close range). In the AEA line, the R84 has a fair amount of proximity boost, The AEA R92 has less. Personally, I don't find the R84 proximity boost to be a problem with instruments. I think it gives a meaty sound (which can always be rolled off a bit). Another thing to keep in mind with ribbons is that most models can be swung around and have the sound enter from the rear of the mic. Generally, the sound from the reverse side will have less proximity effect, and a slightly different character. In short, there's a lot of experimentation that can be done. If you have a ribbon and decided to use the reverse side, you will most likely will want to flip the phase on your preamp so the the initial sound wave will push your speaker cone forward (this is easy to see and check in any computer based digital recorder).
BTW #2, there are also some ribbon mics on the market (Royer makes several) that have a built in preamp that allows the use of these particular ribbon mics in situations where a lot of gain is needed (i.e. micing at a distance, or for use with mic preamps or consoles that don't have an enormous amount of gain).
Post Edited (2007-02-01 02:14)
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Author: Bellflare
Date: 2007-02-01 13:41
Wow
I got my money's worth on this post.
But how good are the cheaper ones, like the NADY and CAD ribbons?
I can not afford Royer or Coles or AEA, but the RSM1 through 6 and Trion 7000 fall within my pocketbook range. Neumann condensers are also too pricey for me.
Some of the retailers have mp3 files of microphone "shootouts" which compare some of ribbons. Unfortunately these recordings are guitar solos picked up off of amplifiers. Even I can hear that the Coles sounded better, but hey, I do not play a Stratocaster hooked up to a 900 kg Marshall amplifier via a pedal reverb.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-02-01 14:39
Quote:
but hey, I do not play a Stratocaster hooked up to a 900 kg Marshall amplifier via a pedal reverb.
Perhaps you should...maybe that's the message that the sound folks are trying to get across...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2007-02-01 16:02
I haven't tried the Nady or the CAD. I have noticed that the CAD has gotten a lot of thumbs ups in user reviews. It's not exactly free. $300 should buy some amount of quality (especially considering that a ribbon mic does not need any internal electronics like condenser mics).
I think the thing to do would be to buy one from a retailer that accepts returns and try it for yourself. Put it through the paces, and see how it sounds.
Regarding some of the other mics, you can sometimes find AEA R84's and R92's in the $600-700 range on a well known auction site.
Personally, mics (and some instruments) are some of the few areas where I don't mind spending a bit of money to buy quality. I still have every microphone that I bought since the early 80's, and they all still get used. If you do the proper research and buy quality mics, you'll have tools that you can use for the rest of your life.
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Author: Bellflare
Date: 2007-02-02 00:44
Thanks for all the data.
While I am at it, I might just get a Eric Clapton pick
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-02-02 15:17
If you're in New York City, you should find out whether the professional store at Harvey's still exists. It was across 45th Street from their midtown store. They were very knowledgeable and gave excellent advice. When I asked for Neumann KM83s, they urged me to try a Sony condenser stereo mic, at about half the price, to find out how I liked it, with an unconditional exchange privilege.
When I compared it to a friend's Neumanns and couldn't listen out the price difference, they immediately made the exchange, suggested a less expensive and quieter AKG phantom power supply and practically gave me a pair of used but top condition cardioid (84) capsules to go with the KM83 omnis. They also gave me great advice on cables, matching transformers and stands.
Of course this was a trade up rather than a refund, but I was very happy with their service and advice.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-02-02 15:46
Regarding "modern" sound issues, this past weekend my group did a job where we had to use a substitute bass player. He's a young guy who has worked with us before, so I didn't have any style issues, but when he showed up at the job, he was toting (on a hand dolly) a huge (say 3' by 3' by 5') bass amp, something more suited to punk rock than to nightclub music.
I asked him if he had showed up at the wrong job, but he told me that his "acoustic" upright bass amp had been stolen and that the monster was the only one that he had to bring. It, of course, had a volume control, but it was still odd to look over there and see that big black box (set sideways on the floor) looming behind him.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: msloss
Date: 2007-02-03 00:02
As with musical instruments, you get what you pay for. Mics are musical instruments in their own right. Some of the classic old ones like the Neumann U47 are rare and wonderful creatures and cost, well, if you have to ask... There are a gazillion ways you can skin this cat on clarinet. I've used pairs of AKG C12s to great effect. I've also used Neumann U89i's which are large-diaphragm condensers with a very flat response curve -- very transparent and unforgiving, but lots of air and extension that really captures the full body of the clarinet sound. Takes a great player to make that work. Had some very interesting results with a BLUE Kiwi and Dragonfly on Grace and Avalon mic preamps as well.
The new Royers that were mentioned above are pretty bomb-proof and sound very interesting. A lot of what makes ribbons special, but also cleaner and more extended than the good ole' RCA 77's and the like.
Unfortunately, the inexpensive ribbons sound inexpensive. They sound a bit covered and get an unpleasant glare when driven hard. If you aren't spending a lot on the mics, chances are you aren't spending a lot on mic pres either (like the Millennia) so you are pretty much trapped. Maybe the right question to ask here is how much do you want to spend? Maybe we can collectively offer some suggestions based on your available resources.
Mark S.
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