 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: thm
Date: 2007-01-27 18:05
Hi everybody,
I've got a new set of fine Yamaha CSG-H clarinets. They come with a barrel with 56.5mm length. Because I live in Europe I need a pitch of A442. With the original barrels and mpc's the clarines have A440 (tend to be even lower).
After some research I came accross Yamaha tuning barrels with different lenghts. At e.g. music123.com they offer three lenghts: 38mm, 48mm and 73mm. I wonder who will want to use a 73mm. The length of 48mm sounds interesting. But I don't want to spend $99 plus international shipping costs to try out if it fits for A442.
Does anybody have experience with differnt lengths and corresponding pitches of these tuning barrels? Would be really great!
Thanks a lot,
Thomas
Post Edited (2007-01-27 18:06)
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Author: kenb
Date: 2007-01-27 18:55
You'll need barrel that's designed for your model (CSG) instrument; probably 55 mm will do the trick. I daresay the barrels/lengths you mentioned have nothing to do with Yamaha CSG soprano clarinets.
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Author: scott kurtzweil
Date: 2007-01-27 20:04
Hi Thomas,
The CSG barrels that we show on our site were made in the Grand Rapids factory after I made comments about the lack of intonational flexibility (I play on a set of CSG silver keys). The result is the three barrels that we carry. I also have a barrel made for me at the Yamaha Pro Shop in New York by Tomoji. It is a reverse taper barrel that gives much more focus than the stock barrels.
Finally, Morrie Backun makes a barrel for the G series clarinets as well. I received a set of them at the ICA show last summer and I use them exclusively.
As always, if I can help more, drop me a line.
Scott Kurtzweil
Kurtzweil Musical LLC
www.kurtzweilmusical.com
269-340-9013
scott@kurtzweilmusical.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-01-27 20:10
Scott, I recall that "someone else" made you a barrel that worked for your horn. Likely, it had a reverse taper bore of diameter not unlike a Buffet, only considerably shorter. I believe this barrel, made by guesstimate, without benefit of having the instrument in the hands of the barrel maker, worked fairly well.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: scott kurtzweil
Date: 2007-01-27 20:27
You couldn't be more correct. Saying it worked "fairly well" would be an understatement. It gave me the core and flexiblity that I've been looking for. In fact, I really wanted to take the Rossi model from Ben Redwine's table at ICA but it was a bit too long to be intonationally viable. I look forward to trying a shorter barrel some time in the future. Name your price.
Best - Scott
Scott Kurtzweil
Kurtzweil Musical LLC
www.kurtzweilmusical.com
269-340-9013
scott@kurtzweilmusical.com
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Author: thm
Date: 2007-01-27 22:07
Your discussion is interesting. Looks like there are few manufacturers which offer barrels for the CSG. Do they offer lenghts for A442, too? I think, in the US the common pitch is A440.
@Scott: Would be great, if you could tell me, whom I should contact. Thanks!
(your surname looks like it's of German origin)
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-01-27 22:54
if it was me, i'd click 'mouthpieces and barrels' on the sponsors link, right side of this page near the top ; and i'd call up the guy behind 'clarinetconcepts.com'
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-01-27 23:26
Scott, I am glad you remembered.
I was out of commission for a few months with a cervical disk problem, have started to produce more since retiring from surgery (The disk problem became acute after I announced my retirement, leading me to believe that a jealous colleague worked some voodoo on me...j/k).
Paul, thanks. Is that a contrabass clar. in your "me" picture? Mrs. S wanted to know what one sounded like, and I wound up on a website with mp3s so she could hear one, and it also had a Tubofax or Sarusaphone.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: kenb
Date: 2007-01-28 00:03
Hi Thomas, my suggestion was made in the light of experience with German instruments (H. Wurlitzer Reform Boehms). I have the reverse of your problem - my instruments are built to 442/3. I carry barrels from 56 - 58mm in the case. If I have to play at 440, when well warmed up I use the 58mm pulled a bit. I use some venting-resonance fingerings on the throat notes to keep them up to pitch. (Fortunately the ensembles I play with tune a little higher than 440).
I'm very surprised to hear that the CSG can accept such a wide variation in barrel lengths and still play in tune with itself....
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-01-28 00:32
I too am confused by the published numbers for the CSG barrel lengths. I bought my CSG on the spot with the stock 55.4 and found the length a bit too much for many modern (alright I'll say it....flat mouthpieces). So I ordered the shortest available of 53.8 and have had no problem with A=440 at all.
Now the fellow I worked with locally called Yamaha and the quoted barrel lengths were 53.8, 55.4 and 57.3 (from what I remember). Therefore I think the initially published numbers (perhaps an initial mistranslation from Japanese?) were some form of typo that continued to be used for some time in error.
These horns are built for A=440 which ever way you slice it, so trying to make them play in Europe is not an easy task. I recall a lecture in the mid '80s in which Karl Leister said he had two sets of Wurlitzers made for the two different pitch centers.......no other really good way around this.
.........Paul Aviles
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Author: thm
Date: 2007-01-28 12:02
These 'new' numbers do make much more sense. Paul, I wonder why your stock barrels are 55.4 and the ones of my set are 56.5, which is the length Yamaha tells on their CSG web description. Where did you order the 53.8 barrels?
@kenb,Paul: Yes, it's a good question, if the CSG plays still in good tune with a shorter barrel. I want to give it a try. Otherwise I can't play them in my clarinet ensemble. The other clarinets are 'traditional' German ones.
@Scott: Are the numbers on your website a matter of translation as Paul thinks and the real lenghts are 53.8, 55.4 and 57.3?
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Author: scott kurtzweil
Date: 2007-01-29 12:57
I believe the numbers are accurate as these were made for me in Grand Rapids and Japan really hasn't picked up the ball as far as manufacturing anything for the US market.
Thomas - I'll get the information regarding contacts at Yamaha and, with their permission, will post or email you as soon as I can. (Oh, and as with many of us here in the Great Lakes area, my family did come here from Germany).
Scott Kurtzweil
Kurtzweil Musical LLC
www.kurtzweilmusical.com
269-340-9013
scott@kurtzweilmusical.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-29 13:36
As Yamaha German/Oehler system clarinet barrels are 54mm, 56mm and the German Boehm has barrels measuring 55mm and 57mm, could any of these be used with the CSG?
I'm sure Die Holzblaeser or any woodwind or clarinet specialists will carry suitable barrels of most makes for you to try. Hueyng lists several makes of barrels (including Yamaha) on their site.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-01-29 14:39
According to Mike Lutely of Yamaha, the CSG is somewhat of a "hybrid" which borrows much of its bore design from the German model in the line. Therefore, I would say, yes, the German barrels should work fine.
As for the exact numbers of the barrels, I am going off of memory (which ain't so good these days) but it's a hell of a lot closer than 7 centimeters for a German style barrel (obvious error somewhere in chain). My local dealer had to call the main Yamaha distribution point in US. I assume any dealer would be able to do the same. Let's keep in mind these horns are made in Japan so the initial information on the horns must have come from Japan (whether or not the information made it through Grand Rapids - with all due respect to Michigan).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: thm
Date: 2007-01-29 18:51
Scott, thanks a lot in advance!
Chris and Paul, trying barrels for German clarinet is a good idea. I will try at my next meeting of our ensemble. Yesterday I wrote an email to 'Die Holzblaeser' (<www.holzblaeser.de>) but haven't got an answer yet. They are known as specialists. I wonder why I didn't think of them earlier
Thomas
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-29 19:20
Try Hueyng as well just to see how they compare. I might get a new Yamaha bell with the vent already in it from them instead of drilling mine when it comes to fitting the Bechermechanik to it.
I've got the opposite trouble with the Yamaha 647 clarinet in that it plays too sharp for me, so I've made myself a 59mm barrel but I can't use it until I get the rings back from being silver plated.
Incidentally, do you use a Boehm mouthpiece or a German mouthpiece with your CSG?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: thm
Date: 2007-01-29 21:16
Chris, I'll ask Hueyng, too. Good idea to compare different answers. In the meantime I got a reply from another dealer, who called Yamaha and forwarded my answer which length would fit for A442. They said that 55.5mm would do it. The price for one barrel is EUR 169.
At the moment I use the mpc's that came with the CSGs: the Yamaha 5CM. I tried different Boehm mpc's which I use(d) with my old CX: Vandoren 40,45,40 Lyre,45 Lyre. But they didn't satisfy me, did not sound as warm as with the 5CM. After I got the right barrels for A442 I want to try Zinner and Viotto mpc's for German system. I think they perhaps suit a bit better than the 'common' Boehm mpc's. Is there anyone who has tried that? Another interesting topic, I think.
Hopefully you are pleased with the new bell and your selfmade barrel.
I love the warm and dark sound of the German system clarinets, too.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-29 23:35
I'm not sure what the mouthpiece socket size on the barrel is on Yamaha Boehms now - it may be narrow in which case a mouthpiece with a 22mm diameter tenon is needed, but the Yamaha German barrels have a wide socket which means a 22.4 or 22.5mm diameter mouthpiece tenon.
I know Vandoren make their German mouthpieces with both narrow (S) and wide (W) tenons to suit different clarinets - the narrow ones (22mm) will fit a Selmer but will be loose in a Wurlitzer, Uebel or Yamaha German/Oehler barrel. Likewise a wide (22.4mm) mouthpiece tenons won't even go into a Selmer barrel.
If you have a German mouthpiece you like, the tenon can be turned down without removing the cork to get it to fit a narrow socket, but as German mouthpieces are slightly longer than Boehm ones you may need a much shorter barrel - maybe 54mm or 53mm, or have the mouthpiece tenon and shoulder shortened.
My old Yamaha plastic clarinet (YCL-24) has a wide barrel socket (around 22.5mm) so the German mouthpiece will fit (but it's tight) whereas my Vandoren M15 is very loose due to my Selmers having a narrow barrel socket.
I've yet to try (and most likely buy) a Viotto mouthpiece (or two) going by the rave reviews they get.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-01-30 00:59
Chris,
Thanks for bringing up the socket dimension dilema. After a few years of being Wurlitzer-less, I forgot about that difference (and a big one at that). The German Yamaha barrel would by necessity have the larger socket...I retract my earlier statement that it would work.
Still, if THM just uses a shorter barrel on a horn designed for A=440 it will only be a poor compromise. If the horn would have been purchase in Europe, the horn would have been built for a higher pitch standard.....but alas.
And before too many get the idea that you can mix and match German mouthpieces and French clarinets, FORGET IT. The overall dimensions of the German mouthpieces (socket, bore and size - Bb mouthpiece looks more like what we would use for a C clarinet). Look what happened when Adolf Sax put a clarinet mouthpiece on a sarousaphone. The world has lived to regret it.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-01-30 02:46
yup, Bb contrabass
sounds like, hm, an ill water buffalo?
Jay Easton's site has sound clips of just about everything
http://www.jayeaston.com
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
Post Edited (2007-01-30 02:47)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-01-30 03:24
Sick water buffalo?
Gives new meaning to YAK-ety sax ![[hot]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/hot.gif)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: mworobec
Date: 2007-05-12 02:51
I've been trying to get the CSG barrels of length 53.8 and the 54.8 and have had these on order at wwbw for 2 1/2 months now, and I just get a back-order notice once a month. Are these really available?
Note that wwbw has the info wrong too: they show as 38mm and 48mm respectively, and my order even has an incorrect item description -
"Yamaha CLB-CSG538 ASax Mpc 300991"
Any help or hints on how to get one of these would be greatly appreciated!
Mike W
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-05-12 03:07
call alseg and have him make you a custom one
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: hartt
Date: 2007-05-12 03:47
Thomas
perhaps a custom barrel is the solution.
However, before traveling that road, you may want to contact Yamaha, Grand Rapids facility and share your problem. An email will cost you nothing.
The person you'd like to speak with is Mike Lutley, woodwind specialist. his email is <mlutley@yamaha.com>
regards
dennis
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-05-12 14:16
Disclaimer...I make custom barrels.
FYI re: the bore and sockets:
The socket for the mouthpiece is standard size and will accept most common (USA, French style)mouthpieces.
The tenon socket for the upper joint is also nominal for most instruments.
The CSG barrel bore is not much different from a Buffet bore (I can not address what happens lower down in the horn), which is the dimension that worked for Scott Kurzweil (see above). I added just a touch of taper when making it. The top is 0.590in
and the bottom nearest the joint is 0.583 if memory serves me correctly.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-05-12 23:47
When you say it's not much different from a Buffet bore, you do mean besides beying MUCH shorter?
The reason I ask is that somewhere along the line someone suggested the possibility of having a Moenig taper superimposed on the CSG barrel and yet I can't help being skeptical since there is much less "room" to achieve that taper. So........isn't part of what make Moenig work on Buffet the ratio of the length of the taper to slope?
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-05-13 04:41
"When you say it's not much different from a Buffet bore, you do mean besides beying MUCH shorter?"
Yes, it is much shorter.
As far as achieving a taper in a short barrel, well, I do it with an Eb barrel, so doing it for this horn is indeed possible. Is it the same as in a 66mm? No.
Any info beyond that is proprietary.
The same disclaimer applies.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-05-13 11:40
(Disclaimer - I am seller of the Forte' Bb and C clarinets)
As Allan suggests, a special taper can be applied to shorter barrels as well as the longer ones but the tolerences must be more exact and working distance is just shorter- ob. cit. the Eb barrel and "C" barrel where the part to taper is way less than 1 cm. The variance between shorter barrels seems to greater because of these two factors so a lot of shopping around and testing is sometimes needed. You, your mouthpiece and reed setup also play a more critical role with shorter barrels. Unless you happen onto the "perfect" barrel for your particular needs a custom made barrel may be the way to go.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-05-13 12:55
And lastly,
So.......must the tapered bore barrel be machined from scratch or can you impose the taper on an existing one, ie my 53.4 mm barrel?
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-05-13 13:40
Paul,
I can not answer how others do it, but can state with certainty that mine start with a pilot hole that is smaller than the anticipated final dimension, and then the final bore is made over several days, since the bore narrows between applications of hand reamers.
Omar's C clarinets come with two barrels. One is decidedly tapered. Now If I can only get him to make a nice Eb model!
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-05-14 23:46
I have a set of customized barrels for the YSG and also the set which came with the YSG and and two more sets of barrells made by Yamaha. However, I am playing 440 not at 442...I think the shorter barrells from Yamaha would suffice..I believe they are at 38mm and 48mm...here is the
link of woodwind and brasswind
http://www.wwbw.com/Yamaha-Tuning-Barrels-for-CSG-Bb-Clarinets-i300991.music
In essence I prefer the Yamaha sets of barrells I have and these are 55 mm zone... and for the A slightly different..as to sound the YSG is very even and focused so I really do feel the other barrels offer maybe a slight difference in tonal shading. These clarinets have a super even emission of tone so I still think the right mouthpiece for them is critical..like any clarinet ..
I use David Hite D facing with great ease..the Vandoren 13 series all play a bit too low for my liking on this particular clarinet...the bore of the YSG is not at all alike the R13...the measurements of even the bell width are smaller. As to the bore the YSG is a smaller bore clarinet...I would say closer to the small bore Leblanc or Selmer
but the sound is certainly more like a German clarinet..nice focus throughout the register..response is slightly different than normal french clarinets as well..I find they play alot like my old reform Bohm Schmidt clarinets in every way..( matched set of Wurlitzer Reform Boehm clarinets made in 1973)
mouthpieces for some players may prove to be tricky..I was lucky my Hite D facings worked excellent from moment one...I did not like the way my Kasper 11 and 13 facings sounded on them at all...
David Dow
Post Edited (2007-05-15 01:36)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-05-15 14:24
David,
The 13 Series problem you mention is a direct result of the 55ish barrel. I have the 53(something) and sometimes still find myself pushed in all the way (this drives my crazy by the way.....I need to have leeway). I use several Series 13s to include an M15, M13 (non Lyre) and 5RV Lyre. The one that gives me the least wiggle room is a Greg Smith Kasper knock off that I just can't stop playing (it's soooooo smooth).
As for the bore differences for custom barrels I am getting the idea that the difference in a taper versus non-taper would be at best nominal. However, I may still wander down that path when I have a couple hundred dollars burning a hole in my pocket.
I've noticed others have also commented on the Yamaha CSG as "UN-Buffet like" in sound. My experience is that the CSG has a strong, rich sound with more than enough resistance to allow playing in large ensembles easy. The only difference to a Buffet that I have found is that it plays in tune and looks a bit different.
I have played Oehler system Wurlitzer 100Cs for ten years and have also tried Wurlitzer Reform Boehm and find the playing characteristics vastly different from anything French to include the Buffet and the Yamaha CSG.
I think Yamaha's idea was to approach the standard Boehm clarinet with some minor, borrowed elements of the German bore but certainly not enough to make it a German sounding horn (to my ears).
That being said I am completely in love with the CSGs for how well they play in the standard French/American school of thought. I would not want anyone who hasen't tried one to think that they are an acquired taste.
Bottom line is that they are what Buffets were in the PAST....great horns.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-05-15 17:04
The CSG is quite different from the R13...the register tube is placed quite a bit lower...
as well as the lower joint and upper joint on the YSG being slightly longer than the R13...the mechanism is very clean and precise and keywork is very solid in comparison to Yamaha even ten years ago.
....as to timbre I find the YSG has a nice ring ...tone maintains it's shape even at a very loud volume..the timbre is one of the main attractions for me.
The YSG also respond very quicky and therefore make fast articulation easy...at least for me....they are also fairly flexible too.
The other element is really the mouthpiece/instrument combo...I was quite lucky with my old set up working well on the YSG clarinets...the A clarinet also in the YSG is pretty identical in sound and response too!!! For an orchestral player I felt this more of an advantage for my own reasons.
I use v12 no. 4 reeds and 56 rue lipic no. 4 reeds with no issues at all in terms of fickleness. IN fact I seem to get more reeds to work with the YSG than I did on my old Selmer Recitals.
As to other elements I find the throat register very easy to tune and match with other instruments...
a number of orchestral freinds of mine are now using them in professional settings and this alone speaks highly of the standard they are made at.
David Dow
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