 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-21 16:50
A few years back I bought a newly reconditioned Series 9. It was purchased for a friend who had been wanting one for years. In playing it I noticed that the throat tones were considerably flat--especially Bb and A. But I read on this board that several others had had the same problem. The friend plays this instrument on a regular basis in a community band that I also play in. He plays 2nd and happens to sit right behind me. When I turn around and tell him he's not in tune (which is all the time) he reminds me I got the instrument for him. It is a bit of an irritation to all of us.
How to fix? And are all the 9 series the same?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-01-21 17:17
I assume that a shorter barrel and/or a different mouthpiece as non-destructive methods have already been tried?
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-21 17:19
I have the opposite trouble - the throat notes on my Series 9 set are sharp, so I usually put down several RH fingers to flatten (and add substance to) them as a matter of course.
I don't think you will encounter much trouble if you have these toneholes enlarged to bring them up to pitch as the throat note toneholes are mostly used for these notes.
What length barrel are you using? I use both 67mm and 68mm barrels.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: William
Date: 2007-01-21 17:45
Without a doubt, you have probably also considered the highth of the key openings......but just in case, there you have it. Also, undercutting the A & Ab tone holes is an option to raise the pitch. If the Bb 4 is also flat, suggest using the side key fingering. I have a series 9* which is very well in tune on these notes, so I'm a little surprised the series 9 would be normally that much different (flat).
But more importantly, Brenda, you are very lucky to play in a community band where such exacting variants in intonation are even noticable. In my Muni Band clarinet section, I am just happy that everyone is playing the same piece of music, much less than "a little flat on your throat A". Someday, if my travels bring me close to your area, I think I would like to sit in with your band--I'll even bring my Concerto so that the sections sound is not completely undermined and discombobulated by the presence of a R13.
(congradulations and good luck with your deviant throat tonists)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-01-21 17:56
In my experience, different makes and models frequently do have their own tuning ideosyncracies. I don't know if all Series 9's have the problem you describe but mine definitely tunes differently than any of my other Bb clarinets. When I use it to practice by myself at home, it seems in tune to me (so much for my ears, perhaps) and I used it in the pit for "Fiddler" with no problems. However, when I tried it with the summer band I play in, I didn't feel like it was blending in quite right (with the band as a whole) throughout its range - not far off when it was off, but not quite on too much of the time. I don't recall that it was specifically the throat tones, though. I did feel that if I played it more regularly, I would probably learn to voice it and it would be fine.
For your friend, here are a few things that you might suggest (short of replacing the instrument or buying a custom barrell):
1. In my experience, using resonance fingerings with these throat notes tends to improve their clarity and raise the pitch slightly. I've gotten so used to this over the years (after first learning about it in the Brymer book) that my standard fingering for throat A is now:
A ooo oox Eb
and for Bb is:
RA oxx oox Eb
Other combinations work better for other players.
2. The trill Bb might give a more accurate note. IMHO, this is an underused fingering.
3. If he's not using a period mouthpiece with an exit bore that matches his instrument, finding one might help.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-01-21 18:23
My friend in community band had a buffet R13 that was tuned horribly flat with it's stock barrel. It was one of the newer R13's. Anywho, he experienced the same issue of constantly playing flat which was ultimately the way his embrochure was formed, but largely because of the barrel didn't suit the clarinet. He let everyone give it a try to analyze and when he finally got a shorter barrel, the intonation clash was immediately nonexistent. try getting a click barrel to see if that might fix the problem before you buy a new barrel.
also, the series 9 clarinet doesn't have as significant of undercutting as the series 9*, thus possibly an explanation.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: William
Date: 2007-01-21 18:30
Just for the record, the resonance fingerings I use:
G OOO OXX
Ab Ab OOX XOO
A A OXX OOO lh B
A# AR OXX OOO lh B
I didn't mention these before because along with improving the sound, they also tend to lower the pitch (for my clarinets, anyhow) and that would be counterproductive to your initial query.
Post Edited (2007-01-24 03:07)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-01-21 18:43
Hello all,
I have three students who are abyssmally sharp on their Series 9. Is there anyone on the board who is so familiar as to be able to explain if these problems are idiomatic or exceptional?
Is the Series 9 just an out of tune horn?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-21 19:26
I've no problems with the tuning in the upper and altissimo registers (apart from the B over the break which is slightly on the flat side) - most problems are in the lower register where the tuning is here, there and everywhere,
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-01-22 02:58
Hi,
My 9* is in tune throughout the entire range. It is my favorite after my Leblanc L 200 which is just about perfect. My R13 is not even close.
HRL
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-01-22 05:35
The Series 9 clarinet is not that different than its predecessor as far as tuning is concern. If the entire clarinet plays flat then it needs a shorter barrel. If the throat tones are the only problem then you need a different mouthpiece. Any SMALLER bore mouthpiece will bring the throat tones up. Large bore clarinets like Series 9 do require a large bore mouthpiece but this mouthpiece should be about 2mm shorter than the one you would normally use on the R13 with the reverse taper barrel.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-01-22 13:45
Vytass,
The recurring problem across all three instruments that I'm in contact with is that the chalumeau register is 20+ cents sharper than the rest of the registers.
Have you any experience with this and/or a solution for it?
Thanks,
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-22 15:37
These are all good suggstions. Vytas, is there a particular mouthpiece that you would suggest? A barrel won't work because the instrument is mainly off on the throat tones. So it suggests, as you mention, that perhaps it is the mouthpiece that is problematic. If so, I would be delighted to get one for him as a gift.
And William, anytime you're in Abilene, Texas on a Monday night give me a call or stop by the McMurray University bandhall. We are blessed to have an extremely high level of players (many band directors) in our band. And, we have several R-13s, so no problem with tuning. Of course, there are also the usual community band problems, but we don't let people stay who aren't pretty good. I enjoy it because I get to know people in our community that I wouldn't otherwise know. Keeps the mind clear.
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Author: time2walkthedog
Date: 2007-01-23 02:47
...just to keep the data flowing -
I've played a Selmer 9 for many years and also have found the throat notes on my Series 9 set are sharp. Like a previous responder, I also put down several RH fingers which corrects the problem. I have never really considered this little compensation to be a problem. Otherwise - and fortunately, I am usually pretty much in tune. For whatever it is worth, I use both the Selmer C* and B* mouthpieces. (When I play mostly 2nd parts I prefer the C*, and when I play 1st parts I prefer the B*... )
This is also my first entry onto this board- thanks to all of you, I've gotten many helpful tips from this group since I discovered it a couple of months ago.
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Author: glin
Date: 2007-01-23 22:16
If the tuning isn't resolving itself anytime soon, move back a row to the 3rds. Better to give up instead of torturing your ears.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-24 13:03
"If the tuning isn't resolving itself anytime soon, move back a row to the 3rds. Better to give up instead of torturing your ears."
Why should I give up my position as first clarinet when I've worked hard over the years to maintain that? It makes more sense to move him back to 3rd. If I moved to the back row wouldn't that be rewarding poor musicianship and lack of musical ear? Besides, we don't need any more 3rds.
Post Edited (2007-01-24 21:31)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-24 15:40
Uh-oh! Politics are an ugly thing in community bands.
Only last night I offered to do alto sax as one of the players can't make a forthcoming concert, and offered the solo chair to another (1st) clarinettist who I know can do the job even though she's only been at two rehearsals. This didn't go down well with a long term member, even though the new girl is a much better player (she plays DYNAMICS!). I think I've managed to smooth the situation out by offering the solo chair to another player who has been there almost as long as I have, though the new girl wasn't too chuffed to have the solo chair taken from under her just as she was about to sit down. But at least I can knock the saxes into shape now.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: johnnymo0829
Date: 2007-01-24 16:00
I went to community band rehearsal last night with my 9 and after reading this I got to thinking more. Just out of habbit I found myself compensating for all my throat tones as well. I had always just chalked it up to my barrel being junk. When I got the clarinet the barrel it had been drilled out for one of the old school pickups and had since been filled. I have tried a bunch of replacement barrels.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-01-25 02:41
Brenda,
There are many older mouthpieces he could try. Riffault mouthpieces made in the 70s have smaller bores. The Ideal "Steelite Ebonite" or "Noblet" (with the border) are also made by Riffault and would be a good choice. Bonade "Qualite Superieure" blanks have smaller bore etc.
The current Selmer C85 series mouthpiece has a small bore but it might be a bit too much for the Series 9
The facings are not that great on the above mentioned mouthpieces so they might fix one problem and create another.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2007-01-25 16:50)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-25 14:59
Thanks Vytas. That gives me something to think about. I may get one or two for him to try and see if it helps. He did acknowledge last Monday that his tuning could use some help. We also got a new clarinet player who is very good and she sat next to him. Really caused the problem to be exposed more. She was perfectly in tune.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-25 15:13
Were Leblanc mouthpieces (as supplied with an LL) made by Riffault?
I've got a couple of these which I've had lying around for a long time - a 2L and a 4L, both of which I've never used! Hmmm... maybe I ought to give them consideration.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-01-25 16:11)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-30 20:40
Just to update a bit on the problem in my clarinet section. I bought a Selmer B* on the unmentionable auction site for a mere $14.50 and took it to band last night. He tried it and it helped quite a bit. Although at first he balked at the idea and said, "I'm not out of tune." I said, "Trust me, you're out of tune in the throat tones." To make a long story short I convinced him to play with a tuner hooked up to his instrument throughout the night and it was amazing. The mouthpiece (thanks for the suggestion Vytas) helped. He did admit that he sounded better and said he guessed he must have been out of tune. He also promised to practice and listen more carefully. He offered to move to the back, but I told him I would still be able to hear him if he was out of tune, so he decided to stay and work on it. He even reimbursed me for the mouthpiece. So, I think it's a happy ending without an ending.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-30 22:08
I thought there were going to be fireworks this evening when I let the new girl do solo clarinet, but I didn't see any problems - and it gave me an opportunity to hear how the rest of the clarinets are playing as a whole...
The other saxes seemed to like me doing 1st alto too.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-01-31 00:27
> *** "The recurring problem across all three instruments that I'm in contact with is that the chalumeau register is 20+ cents sharper than the rest of the registers". *** <
If the Lower-Joint is tuned too sharp you can remedy this somewhat just by pulling at the middle joint.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-01-31 03:19
Hello Vytas,
I am familiar with where and how to tune the clarinet.
Pulling 2mm or more at either the barrel or middle joint will not alleviate 20+ cents sharp.
Granted in this case two of the students contribute to the problem themselves.
Since no one else has chimed in with the same experience I will presume that the three are singular (or singularly to blame).
Thanks
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-31 11:57
"If the Lower-Joint is tuned too sharp you can remedy this somewhat just by pulling at the middle joint."
That's alright if you haven't got the C#/G# tonehole going through the middle tenon and socket.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-06 22:21
Series 9 bore size is 14.935mm, or .588" in old money.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2007-02-07 07:46
Is there no expert clarinet tuner person in the community who can make this clarinet right?
Often it is the band or orchestra leader who is responsible for identifying persons who are chronically or temporarily out of tune and motivating them to get the instruments fixed or to take lessons. Perhaps your band leader can't handle this. Good luck!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-02-07 18:25
The guy is very willing to correct the problem. He has made some corrections and wants the bore size so he can figure out what's going on. He will get it fixed or get another instrument.
Actually, section leaders are responsible for keeping their sections in tune and the band director only comments if this isn't happening.
And, no, there isn't anyone local who can fix chronic problems such as this. We have a few repair persons who can change out pads, but anything beyond is not possible. But, there are a lot of people out there (many of them sponsors of this board) who can help via shipping.
Thanks everyone.
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