 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bwilber
Date: 2006-12-21 14:10
This probably sounds really stupid but here goes. The bridge key lifts up and pushes down on a covered key on the top keyed section. How important is it that the covered key on the top section be fully covered when the bridge key lifts it up? Thanks
Bonnie Wilber
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-21 14:22
If you use 'long Bb' a lot (xoo|xoo) then this adjustment is very important - so going from (upper register) F to Bb is as simple as lifting LH fingers 2 and 3 only, and also F#-A# (or Gb-Bb) by playing F#/Gb (xxx|oxo) and then lifting LH fingers 2 and 3 for the A#/Bb (xoo|oxo). The side Bb key isn't involved with the 'long Bb' fingerings.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-12-21 16:08
Chris P, as a professional technician, understates the case for a properly adjusted bridge mechanism. The long Bb is hugely important to fluent playing -particularly in flat key signatures-- when you can't get to the side Bb or Bb sliver key, so its always in use. The Long Bb can be fingered from F#, too as xxx|oxo, or even xxx|oox. That's why the lower joint tone holes all have rings that move the bridge mechanism.
If the linkage won't close the pad on the upper joint, the long Bb won't speak, if the linkage is too tight, that pad won't open, and the notes just below the throat will be flat, stuffy, out of tune. If the bridge mechanism is tighter, it will interfere with closing the upper pad and tone holes on the lower joint, and it will cause problems with the notes below top line F in the clarion register and below middle C in the chaleumeau.
As a routine part of assembling your instrument, you need to rotate the lower joint relative to the upper joint to find the sweet spot where the bridge mechanism does its job correctly. To test, put one of your right fingers down on the rings to activate the bridge mechanism. Then, press gently on the pad in the upper joint. There should be no movement; it should be seated firmly. Then test with a tremelo from top line F to long Bb by using the left hand middle and ring fingers.
Late Buffets have a wide flange on the upper joint's share of the bridge mechanism to allow easy adjustment in case someting goes out of whack.
Have your technician adjust the cork thickness and bend the mechanism to perfect the operation. Be really carefull not to snag the darned thing and bend it during assembly and swabbing.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-21 16:22
If your tech has taken the upper rings off (to replace the connection cork), get them to stick a thick piece of cork above that (but still on the underside!)to act as a stopper against the body as well, as this will keep the ring key at a sufficient height to allow for easy assembly without the risk of the connection cork getting torn off.
Though during assembly you should always hold the top joint in your left hand with the rings held closed which also avoids the cork being torn off, while your right hand holds the bottom joint with your thumb closing both the bottom two pad cups to avoid them getting bent as well.
But some clarinets have a poor designed bridge key mechanism (Selmer USA, Buffet B12) which means the joints HAVE to be lined up perfectly in order for the long Bb to work properly.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-21 16:30
The bridge mechanism can be adjusted in a way that it works fine for the Bb, but when you press right hand rings while your left hand fingers are down you will feel the movement slightly in the left hand fingers. It should be adjusted that the pad for Bb will close fine but you won't feel the movement in the fingers.
"To test, put one of your right fingers down on the rings to activate the bridge mechanism. Then, press gently on the pad in the upper joint. There should be no movement"
Maybe that depends on the pads? For example, the pads on my clarinet are so soft, that after they close completely with no leaks, it is still possible to press them down more, much more than any pad I've seen. The best adjustment point on this clarinet for both a good Bb and also no movement of the left fingers is that in the situation you describe you actually can move the pad more.
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2006-12-21 16:32
Bob hit it on the nose. Joints should always be twisted to the spot that allows the bridge key to work properly. A couple of my beginners are renting a Vito, which has a notch between the joints to lined up the rings. Trouble is, if the bridge key is out of adjustment, the students automatically line up with the notch rather than the position that makes the bridge key work.
Lori
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-21 16:43
I still can't see how I've understated the importance of the long Bb regulation.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-12-21 16:57
I personally don't use the long Bb. But that bridge key must work perfectly!!
Some clarinetist's fingertips are small enough that they can cover the tone hole (second finger left hand) without touching it's ring enough to finish covering the attached keypad. Usually we're talking about beginners, sometimes not. This adjustment is more critical in this case.
If the upper and lower joints feel out of alignment because you are adjusting too far to make the bridge key work it needs to go to a repair tech. (It probably needs to go to your tech even before they feel TOO out of alignment.)
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-12-21 18:21
A fine discussion re: our 1 and 1, and YES, it must work perfectly, if out of adjustment Either way, problems arise. I [at first] went to it on bass cl, where many pieces of music ask for rhythmic Bb to Eb [in the chal.] and its sooo handy. Good for alto and sop, is real handy for alto sax too, just try playing One O'Clock Jump without it !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-12-21 21:40
On all soprano clarinets (and on the one alto clarinet with open rings that I've played) that I have ever used, I have had to have my repairpersons adjust the settings of the "brille" (German for "eyeglasses, which they thought the rings resembled) so that they set flush when my fingers are on them.
On some horns, this can be a hassle. If there are pads operated by the ring system (a few on Boehm horns, a lot on Oehler horns), it may be necessary to adjust the pad thickness to ensure proper operation when the rings are depressed. This is an involved operation that is best done by sanding down cork pads to the proper thickness.
Until I had the rings adjusted on the soprano horn I played as a kid, I would invariably "squeak" when playing any note in the range E through Ab (chalmeau register) and in the clarinet register equivalents. This was due to a slight lifting of my ring finger (and resultant inadvertent "vent" that was created) when moving between the keys with my right hand little finger. A few minor adjustments by the technician, and presto - no more three octave jumps.
(I have very large hands, so large that I have trouble operating an Eb or D clarinet without opening the sliver keys inadvertently. I've had any number of "regular" sized people tell me that I shouldn't have a problem. Once we match hand size, they are usually willing to acknowledge that they are wrong...)
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-12-22 01:43
Chris P
I've suffered with bad bridge mechanisms so much that I'm extremely sensitive to maladjustments --thus, I thought that more (MORE!) discussion is in order.
I have a Buffet (nearly) Full Boehm where the articulated G# is controlled by the bridge mechanism. Thus, the bridge must not only enable the 1-1 Bb, but also close the G#/C# pad. That is asking a whole lot of the technician to properly set up the horn. Few can do it. I can't.
Tobin,
How on earth can you do without the 1-1 Bb? I used to use the 1-1 Eb (bottom line), but realized (with illumination from my teacher) that it is 'way ouf ot tune. So, I've been trying to give up the 1-1 Eb and getting better at slapping the side Eb/Bb key.
I'm working on a piece for my next lesson that has a quick arpeggio with top line F, the Bb above, D6. It goes swimmingly with the 1-1 Bb, but would be a nightmare if I had to get to the Bb sliver key on the upper joint, or switch my right forefinger from the tone hole to the side key and back.
ALL
How is it that the 1-1 plays Bb6 in tune and Eb 4 out of tune?
thanks for the latter
Bob Phillips
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-12-22 02:33
Hello Bob,
You just have to realize that there is only one difference between F5 and D6...the first finger of your left hand. (yes...I know that the pinky pushes the Eb/Ab key...that's not really a factor.)
So the first finger of your right hand (the apparent problem) first moves to the Bb lever, and then right back where it came from. So I have worked to let this be as easy as it should be.
GENERALLY speaking...the Bb sliver key should be removed from the clarinet. (yes it does have slightly different pitch and color, but...)
Yes, I do use 1/1 every once in a while. Usually not, however.
Forget the Bb major chord, look at another arpeggio: If you had an Eb major chord and had to move from clarion Bb5 to altissimo Eb6 and back you would be executing essentially the same motion as I have described above for F5 Bb5 D6. And you wouldn't be able to use the 1/1 Bb...or do you?
I might also add that my right fingers curve down as much as my left fingers do. So I finger F5 with my finger and touch the Bb lever at the same time.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-22 05:52
"Tobin, How on earth can you do without the 1-1 Bb? ......a quick arpeggio with top line F, the Bb above, D6. It goes swimmingly with the 1-1 Bb....."
I also rarely use the 1/1 Bb fingering. In the example you described I would use the regular Bb fingering (maybe because I'm used to it, but it isn't difficult in that arpeggio).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-22 07:08
"I've suffered with bad bridge mechanisms so much that I'm extremely sensitive to maladjustments --thus, I thought that more (MORE!) discussion is in order.
I have a Buffet (nearly) Full Boehm where the articulated G# is controlled by the bridge mechanism. Thus, the bridge must not only enable the 1-1 Bb, but also close the G#/C# pad. That is asking a whole lot of the technician to properly set up the horn. Few can do it. I can't."
You need to get rid of any mechanical slop in the main action in order to achieve perfect regulation, but this is easier said than done. Having perfectly fitted point screws in the ends is ideal, but in the real world they can bind up when cold, so a compromise has to be found.
On my full Boehms I've cork padded nearly everything, and use gasket cork under the adjusting screws. But on the upper bridge key I use felt or ultrasuede not only to silence the action, but for some give in the linkage between the joints which would normally be found with skin or leather pads.
Adjust the F#-G# link first (this is much easier on Selmers than it is on Buffets and Leblancs), then adjust the long Bb by bending the upper bridge key, and finally adjust the top joint rings so the 2nd ring closes the E vent pad and the small vent pad at the same pressure.
If the clarinet was in one piece, this would be easier to get the regulation right from the start, but as the joints are seperate, they have to be spot on when assembled. I've seen alignment marks on some Series 9 full Boehms.
The long Bb is important in the Eb minor arpeggio - for upper register Gb, Bb and high Eb you keep the RH middle finger down for all of these notes (though the top Eb will need to be lipped up just using oxx|oxoAb/Eb unless you have an Acton vent).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-12-23 01:09
don't forget that Bb6 can be fingered with any right hand finger down on the "eyeglasses"
x00|100
x00|010
x00|001
This F#5 to D#6 uses x00|010.
Bob
Bob Phillips
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-12-23 01:24
Bob Phillips wrote:
> don't forget that Bb6 can be fingered with any right hand
> finger down on the "eyeglasses"
>
> x00|100
> x00|010
> x00|001
I think you mean Bb5
> This F#5 to D#6 uses x00|010.
Better would be:
TR x x x / x oI o
Going to: TR o x x / x oI o Ab/Eb
or
TR x x x / o o x
Going to: TR o x x / o o x Ab/Eb
...GBK
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2006-12-23 02:33
As Bob Phillips said, the problem is not just the long B flat. If the alignment of the bridge keys is poor in the opposite direction, the top pad on the lower joint may not close properly on any note lower than C (or from G5 down to the "break"). Important as the long B flat is, I find the second problem more frequent with young kids on school instruments especially. They learn these notes muuch earlier, and have no idea why they won't speak.
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2006-12-23 07:10
Will someone please explain the exact method used to adjust the bridge key.
jmsa
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-23 09:53
"Will someone please explain the exact method used to adjust the bridge key."
It is easily done by slight bending of either or both parts, using smooth-jawed pliers that do not mar the surface. Those who are afraid or not used to doing this usually resort to making adjustments to the thickness of linkage's silencing cork.
I agree that any precise adjustment in this area is pointless unless the pads are sealing well, with light pressure, and there is minimal play in the pivots.
Bob wrote, "As a routine part of assembling your instrument, you need to rotate the lower joint relative to the upper joint to find the sweet spot where the bridge mechanism does its job correctly."
"Claritoot26 wrote "Bob hit it on the nose. Joints should always be twisted to the spot that allows the bridge key to work properly...."
Imagine a hollow cylinder that is concentric to the body, and going through a point in the centre of the face of the silencing cork, when the keys are in the closed position.
If I am doing significant work on a clarinet, especially in this area, I modify the geometry of the linkage parts, such that the planes of both the face of the cork, and also the surface that engages the cork, are both tangents to this cylinder at the point of contact (centre of the cork)
Then having the sections of body slightly out of alignment does not affect the precisely adjusted linkage, and the concerns of Bob and Claritoot26 do not exist.
Ideally the corked area should be slightly concave, matching the curve of the cylinder described, and the surface that engages the cork should be convex, of same cylinder radius or less.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-23 11:18
I wonder why there's no adjusting screw on the bridge. ???
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-23 11:56
There is, on a few models of clarinet.
Some suggested reasons why not:
1. Unless the geometry is such as I describe, for the LOWER key, there is little point, because a slight change in alignment of the upper joint with the lower, will muck up the adjustment, and few manufacturers pay much attention to this issue.
2. Perhaps the main reason is that an adjustment screw needs height, and increasing the height of the metal here, means the side Eb/Bb key is likely to hit the D/A key when both are pressed.
3. They don't LOOK too aesthetic in this location.
4. If there is a screw projecting below the linkage part of the A/D key, then while the instrument is being assembled, the screw is likely to get its nylon tip swiped off. Alternatively, if a silencing material is on the low ring key, it is likely to chewed away.
5. Access to it presents a difficulty, because the side Eb/Bb key is usually over the top of it.
6. When there are adjusting screws, players tend to mess with them, thinking they can solve a problem, when that problem will often be something else, such as the two pads concerned not correctly aligned with the tone holes.
Probably several more reasons too.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-23 13:31
Howarth clarinets have an adjusting screw for the long Bb - it's not on the bridge key as most of them generally are (if fitted), but the barrel for the lower top joint ring and E vent cup is split and the adjustment is between LH fingers 2 and 3 so access to it is easy, and the side Eb/Bb key won't clatter against the screw head if it was fitted there, and no chances of the adjusting screw or silencing material getting mashed.
But I can't find any detailed photos of it.
Another adjustment they have is for the LH F/C lever, again the adjusting screw isn't in the obvious place (on the upper part of the linkage from the RH F/C key), but it's on the F/C lever foot instead with the adjusting screw against the body so any play can be taken out.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-12-24 00:19
GBK,
I can (sometimes) do a little math, but clearly, I can't count! Thank you.
Gordon (NZ),
You are clearly a star clarinet technician. I wish you lived within shouting distance of me!
On my newest Buffet, the lever lengths of the upper and lower parts of the bridge key mechanism can be made different by rotating the lower joint relative to the upper. Thus, for the amount of movement available from the lower "eyeglass" rings can be amplified (rotate the lower joint to the left as you look down toward the bell while playing) or decreased (rotate the lower joint to the right). This gives an extra degree of freedom in the routine adjustment of the horn as it is assembled. I try to check this everytime I put the horn together.
With your set-up, one could just align the upper and lower joints and be done with it. With Buffet's mechanism, the amount of upper linkage movement for a given lower linkage movement can be changed --even if the plane of the connector interface is tangent to your concentric-with-the-tenon cylinder.
Cool
Bob Phillips
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-24 00:32
Wow!
I didn't really expect anybody to try to understand my convoluted explanation. You did well!
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2006-12-24 00:37
some older makers used to have an adjustment screw on the upper part of the bridge mechanism...I always thought this a good idea.
David Dow
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-24 07:04
Gordon wrote:
"I didn't really expect anybody to try to understand my convoluted explanation."
Really? 
"If I am doing significant work on a clarinet, especially in this area, I modify the geometry of the linkage parts, such that the planes of both the face of the cork, and also the surface that engages the cork, are both tangents to this cylinder at the point of contact"
Do you mean you bend the metal to be convex, and you shape the cork (that is glued on a straight surface) to be concave (or the other way around if the cork is on the opposite side)?
On my clarinet the lower part of the bridge mechanism is shaped like the cylinder but the upper (corked) part is straight, and to work correctly only needs too thin cork to be able to shape as part of a cylinder in the correct radius. I guess it is possible to bend it in a way that a thicker cork will be needed and then shape it and it will work good, but in reality I've noticed that it is very easy to align it and have it work good the way it is.
Have the two parts round in the right radius cylinder like you describe can make it even easier to align, but you want to have the two joints aligned for most comfortable hand position too, and that position should also give the best bridge mechanism position. IMHO the very tiny differences that still allow for comfortable hands position are small enough to allow the bridge mechanism to work perfectly (plus like I said I think it is vert easy to align it).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-24 11:02
As the pillar heights for the upper and lower ring keys are different, and therefore the lengths of the linkages from the key barrels (the distance away from the fulcrum) are also different on the top joint and bottom joint, getting the linkage to line up correctly is important. And with all levers, more movement is at the end of the lever furthest from the fulcrum (the pillar), so having a flat plane on both surfaces of the bridge mechanism (as on Selmers) is better provided both surfaces line up with each other, though the alignment is more critical if the contact area was small (eg. the upper contact surface is convex or has an adjusting screw on it).
If both surfaces are convex, then having them misaligned would either cause the upper pad not to close if the top joint is set towards the left, or cause the lower ring pad not to close if the top joint is set too far round to the right as there's greater movement from the lower ring linkage, and less from the upper linkage.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-24 12:14
Clarnibass wrote,
""If I am doing significant work on a clarinet, especially in this area, I modify the geometry of the linkage parts, such that the planes of both the face of the cork, and also the surface that engages the cork, are both tangents to this cylinder at the point of contact"
Do you mean you bend the metal to be convex, and you shape the cork (that is glued on a straight surface) to be concave (or the other way around if the cork is on the opposite side)?"
No, I just adjust the alignment of the linkage tabs to have tangent surfaces as explained. Occasionally, I make the lower tab more convex, by bending, if it is thin, or milling.
This means there is only SLIGHT alteration of the linkage, if/when the bodies are rotated relative to eachother (upper key left further open)
If I were making the upper tab concave, as a suggested IDEAL, I would grind or mill it so, but this was just a suggested ideal. I don't recall doing it yet.
Chris, in your last paragraph, isn't the result dependend on whether the tangent situationh exists? If so...
f both surfaces are convex, then having them misaligned would either cause the upper pad not to close if the top joint is set towards the left, OR the right.
BTW, the student Yamaha I just looked at has both the posts at the bridge the same height.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-24 14:51
Gordon - My clarinet have the posts in slightly different heights, but in the situation you describe as ideal, where both sides of the mechanism are convex, it looks to me like it would work better (i.e. will allow more play in alignment for still perfectly working bridge) only if the keys are convex in a way where they are parallel to the body in the up position (i.e. when the rings are pressed down). Either that or the keys have identical movement which is maybe harder to build?
But either way, I think it is not that important because alignment of the two joints is already very important for comfortable hand/finger position (the relation between the hands). With good tenon cork and some cork grease (if necessary) it is very easy to assemble the joints to the right spot. IMO the tiny changes in alignment that are not beyond what is very easy to control when assembling the clarinet are smaller than the misalignment required to make the bridge to not work perfectly.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-24 15:04
I just checked a Selmer CT and the top joint main action pillars are about 1mm taller than the bottom joint ring pillars, and the bridge keys are different lengths when measured from the barrel outwards. So there are some geometric issues here which are very simple to overcome when setting up the long Bb - regulate the long Bb with the bridge keys lined up, and use a material or pads with some degree of give in them.
I use felt for silencing, but with cork pads the slight give in the felt or ultrasuede will make sure both pads will close.
Look at the crook key mechanism in some makes of bassoon where they put a thick flat spring on the linkage to the crook key pad to do a similar thing, so the low E plate (for the right thumb) can work the crook key as well as the left thumb, even though the leverages are very different, and this means the crook key will close if there is too much pressure from the E plate, but won't hold the E plate open - plus the amount of torsion in the key axles also helps to a degree here as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-24 20:20
I agree, clarnibass, that in some respects this is all a bit pedantic.
But one correction...
You wrote, "....the situation you describe as ideal, where both sides of the mechanism are convex, it looks to me like it would work better..... "
I described the upper key's linkage face as either flat and tangential, or ideally, CONVEX and concentric.
The bassoon set-up is very different. With such short fulcrums, and all that torsion in the long keys, and especially if the spring is included in the linkage, very little closing force is transferred to the whisper key. Which is just as well, otherwise the pad, closing on such a tiny tone hole, would quickly cut through. Fortunately that pad only NEEDS very little closing pressure to seal.
With the clarinet keys we are talking about, the ideal would be if the two pads involved close with EQUAL pressure.
Post Edited (2006-12-27 10:37)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-24 22:10
And the only clarinets that can have any degree of fine regulation of the long Bb are one-piece body clarinets as there's no chance of the bridge being misaligned - I fitted an adjusting screw on my plastic Vito Eb to get the required adjustment.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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