 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-12-20 19:51
Just doing some latenight thinking. Turns out that the Bb I have at home had work on it done by Backun. It was told me to AFTER I had already bought it, but it sure sounds too good to have been bought directly from a store and never worked on.
And I remember more than a few posts talking about "brannenizing" or "spiegalthaling" or the like. So have you? Why/why not?
As for me . . .
My current horn already had the work done before I bought it. Would I do it to another horn? Definitely. As a matter of fact, I'm probably going to send my A clarinet out to have it worked on when I get a chance. Would I have done so BEFORE trying one out? Probably. I probably would have bought the cheapest used "professional" horn that had a very good sound to it (my thoughts go back to a Selmer 10G Z-series horn that I had purchased for $800) and would have spent upwards of $500 dollars to have a superb-sounding, $1300 dollar horn. Almost a thousand dollars less than a brand new storebought horn of the most popular (and cheapest that I've found) "professional" model.
How about you?
Alexi
[EDIT] - PS - For this thread, let's include those few custom MADE clarinets in the category of custom tuned. So you Chadash, Rossi, Eaton owners would answer "yes" while if your clarinet wasn't assembled on a long and vast assembly line (the big four, Howarth, Amati, and, of course FirstAct) may or may not have sent it to get tuned (a custom tuned firstact clarinet . . . . . . . . [shivers])
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2006-12-20 19:57)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-12-20 20:44
Although I'm currently playing with Backun accessories (bell and barrels), I haven't had my Opus II set up by Morrie. I would love to do that because he can go through and "fine tune" things on the instrument that would make it a better player. This is especially true since Morrie's development of the Legacy, Symphonie and Cadenza with Leblanc, so I feel I could benefit greatly from having him go over my Opus. Just need the $$$.
When I was playing Buffets I sent my instruments to the Brannens to be "Brannenized" right after I bought them. Linda always wants to talk to you and get a feel for what you need done. They also do Leblancs and other professional clarinets. I had 1 Festival done by them, 1 R-13 and one R-13 Greenline. Each time I felt the money was worth it. The pads last a very long time.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-20 20:48
It boggles the mind to think what a custom tuning job could do for a good old First Act model CSO-A1+++. Any change whatsoever would have to be an improvement . . . now, where did they put that 8 pound alto clarinet tuning hammer?? Eu
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-20 21:00
Well...we always complain the lack of workmanship in those cheapo clarinets. So if workmanship is applied to such an instrument as an aftermarket option, it might play in tune. Whether or not this is a sensible way of investing money is a different question.
Maybe we should rummage in our treasure chests and send a promising specimen to one of the wizards in here. Too bad I sold my Indian Albert clarinet...
--
Ben
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-20 21:29
You can't make a Rolls Royce (or even a luxury wannabe Cadillac) out of a Tatra Djet. Eu
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-12-20 21:54
Tweaking can do only so much. The instrument must be basically in tune, responsive and good sounding to begin with.
Kalmen Opperman picked out my Bb and did the finishing work on it.
Greg Smith selects instruments and sends them to the Brannens for setup. Walter Grabner, Lisa Argyris, and Muncey Winds do selection and finishing. Probably Backun does too, at least before he introduced his own instruments. Presumably some of the other repair techs on the board do the same.
On the other hand, if you already have good horns, there's no need to replace them, at least until a prospective tuner tells you that would be best.
I'd be interested in knowing other peoples' experiences. Have you had customization done? What was it, and by whom? Are you happy with the results?
Ken Shaw
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-20 22:19
It is good to see that there are many folks doing these "tune-ups" to improve the tuning of clarinets. I, of course, wonder about what the cost would be, realizing that would depend on the instrument.
Different makes and models would have varying issues for the tuner to overcome, but maybe some ball park range of costs would be helpful. It could cost so much for an intermediate instrument like a Selmer Soloist, Leblanc Symphonie (the older one, that is), or Evette Master, that one would be better off selling it and buying an R-13 rather than sink the money into custom tuning the lesser quality horn.
I have sometimes thought of having a custom tune-up done to one of my horns, but don't know which would best gain from the work and whether it would be economically justifiable.
Eu
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-20 22:28
I've noticed that tuning mostly depends on me. My clarinet is mostly perfectly in tune with itself until I'm getting sloppy or tired. So in my case, "custom tuning" would be like building a palace on quicksand. <sigh>
--
Ben
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2006-12-20 23:47
David S. rebuilt my Symphonie 3 A a year or so ago and the transformation was fantastic. To be fair, nothing had been done to it since about 1979, when I bought it "just overhauled" to play in school. It plays better now that it ever did in school. The action and response are very even, plus tone and intonation are great. For not much money I have an instrument that is professional quality, if a bit out of date. As a vote of confidence, I just bought a Bb Symphonie 3, which will be going to David as soon as I recover from Christmas.
Many of the problems that people mention here with new instruments could be very easily fixed by a good tech. Production instruments are are after all mass produced. The factory might spend 15 minutes tuning the action and checking intonation. A good tech will spend a lot more time getting things just right, which will pay off when you sit down to play.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-21 02:21
Tony: I had the same, David S., one not at all unheard of in these parts, to do a general overhaul on my Evette Master about 2 months ago. The work included tone hole undercutting and a change in the barrel, but I didn't have any other modifications made to the instrument as my budget was (as is normal) somewhat limited. But just the overhaul made a great difference in the sound of the horn as well as the ease of playing it. Someday I might get good enough on playing the clarinet that custom tuning might be called for . . . I'm not there yet, neither financially nor artistically. Eu
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-12-21 03:05
Hello All,
I have had my R13 Bb, Festival A, and Prestige bass Brannenized. I have not had my Eb clarinet done (yet).
I had Bill and Linda tune them up for several reasons: I wanted cork pads on the upper joint, optimization of the keys, improvement of the clarinet's condition "out of the box", and because (amazingly enough) I thought I should.
I have not been disappointed! Often the work done by different technicians begins with a complete rebuild of the instrument, beginning with reseating the posts...improving things from the "ground up."
Generally speaking, the more detailed you are about what you want the better the tune up and the more bang you get for your buck! You do develop a rapport with your tech and they with you...and this is important.
I feel that the best of the three instruments is the bass. It was great to begin with, and it is wonderfull now.
I have found periodic visits to Bill and Linda's are extremely well priced after the initial investment.
I have someone in town here in Ch'ville do a lot of work now, and he has increased the projection and resonance of each instrument I've sent him...but I like the key work less.
So begins the communications that will get what I want from that tech...
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-21 07:58
I play an Eaton clarient which you included, but I'm not sure what exactly you want to know.
Unless a clarinet has extremely obvious poor intonation, I don't see how it is possible to send it to be fixed. IMO small intonation tweaks have to be done individually for each player, with the player right there to check.
"Often the work done by different technicians begins with a complete rebuild of the instrument, beginning with reseating the posts...improving things from the ground up."
If a new $3,000+ clarinet needs this work then something is wrong. What does the price of the instrument goes to if not exactly this? Slight individual keywork and intonation changes I can understand, but I've seen 50 years old clarinets in overall horrible condition with the posts in excellent condition not needing any work, so on a new instrument??!
"I'd be interested in knowing other peoples' experiences. Have you had customization done? What was it, and by whom? Are you happy with the results?"
I had customization done to both my Bb and bass clarinets. On the Bb I had some keys bent to be more confortable, and some pad heights changed (especially on throat notes) to give me better response/intoantion. On the bass I had the neck register hole enlarged by 0.5mm for much better sound and response in higher clarion. Almost all of this was done by me (except some key bending that was done years ago before I started repairing myself).
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-12-21 08:25
I remember reading about how Moenig would work with clarinets. As for the intonation tweaks, basically he would widen/fill in tone holes and work with undercutting them in order to improve tuning, and stuffiness in certain notes. This is what I mean by having a custom tuned clarinet. Sure, you can change the intonation note to note with embouchure if there isn't TOO much spread between notes, but wouldn't it be much easier if even less (or ideally NO) embouchure changes are required to bring certain notes into tune? This is what the tuners work on. So that you can keep a constant embouchure and not have to think so much about resonance fingerings, opening up venting holes to bring pitches up, loosening your embouchure to bring certain notes down etc. etc.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-21 14:13
KYC: Here we are talking about pitch correcting, physical modification-type reworking, rather than the cleaning, oiling, repadding, regulating, etc. stuff which tends more towards being an overhaul rather than custom tuning service. Eu
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Author: William
Date: 2006-12-21 14:28
Tom Ridenour worked on my set of LeBlanc Concertos after I selected them at the Kenosha facility--and they turned out to be exceptionally even and in tune in all registers. Further, all of the major clarinet players play tweeked equipement, so.......why not????
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-12-21 15:53
I look at "custom tuning" as having a consultant do the fine, finishing work that the original manufacturer did not do --work that removes the vagaries of the production line, "centers" the instrument and improves its mechanization..
I think that the serious user of a clarinet should, absolutely have this personalization done.
I've experienced the work of Muncy, Grabner and Spiegelthal on my Buffets, and now believe that their level of customization greatly improves my ability to play these instruments fluently and expressively.
I've recently had my horn in "auditioned" by symphony orchestra players, and all have immediately blessed it.
... "No compromises whatsoever!"
Bob Phillips
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-12-21 16:38
Clarnibass says: "If a new $3,000+ clarinet needs this work then something is wrong."
I disagree. A $3,000 clarinet is at about the same level a $3,000 oboe or flute, or a $5,000 bassoon. You can find excellent examples, but on average they aren't good enough for professional use. That's why a Wurlitzer clarinet costs $10,000, just like a professional model flute or oboe.
My tweaked R-13s play nothing like the instrument you get by ordering at random. I've played a couple of clarinets used by top players, and they're in still another league.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-12-21 16:50
I agree with Ken...the Buffet's I have selected and bought are wonderfull starting points.
For many clarinetists they are probably enough. But for me there was more to be done, and as I become an ever more discriminating clarinetist, there will be more in the future.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-21 17:02
Ken, maybe you misunderstood me? Or maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that $3,000+ clarinets didn't need individual tweaking, I meant they don't need the extreme repair described by Tobin: "a complete rebuild of the instrument, beginning with reseating the posts".
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-21 17:14
Tobin: I just stands it so long till I can't stands it no more!! I gotta digress! What does "Gnothi Seauton" mean? It looks sort of Celtic to me, but I speak no foreign language (and struggle with English). Eu
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-21 17:30
It's 'Know Thyself/Oneself/Yourself' in Greek.
I just looked it up!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-12-21 18:52
It is the inscription on Apollo's oracle at Delphi. I spent a couple years bartending, making money, and playing little or no clarinet. What a waste of time!
Clarnibass: Some tech's/players are of the opinion that Buffet clarinets are not well put together at final assembly. There have been discussions of the state of Buffet's clarinets "out of the box."
I doubt that tech's reseat every post as a manner of course. However, if I want key work optimized, I want it fixed from the foundation up. It should be something that is investigated and attended to as necessary.
Bill Brannen described this process to me in particular as part of the work done on my bass. And again my bass is the best of the clarinets that I own.
Going back to the original post and Alexi's questions: every technician has a different process and take on what needs to be done and in what order. Only by speaking with them about their process can one decide whether the work is necessary and worth the investment, as well as what separates one tech's work from another. This opening discussion is fundamental to the process that allows the tech to tailor their process to what you need. It is part of making sure that you get the most for your money as well as allowing your clarinet to grow with you through time.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-21 19:00
I look at it as the reason some people have their car's engine & drivetrain "blueprinted". While cars come off the assembly line with the engine and drivetrain "good enough" for the vast majority of people, there will be those that, while not subscribing to the aftermarket for more power, want those stock parts to be put completely "right". They have the heads polished, the decks flattened, the preload on the thrust washers perfect, etc. The end result is something that very few people can truly appreciate unless they get to drive these cars, and even then unless one is attuned to the subtle differences, may miss them completely.
Not everyone needs to attend to this level of detail.
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-12-21 19:06
i have had small adjustments done to both my current clarinets (both to toneholes and small bore adjustments), and look forward to having a bit more done to my A clarinet when i'm in USA in Jan. At the other end of the spectrum.... i have myself helped out others with small adjustments (filling in a hole, working on pad heights etc) and on each occasion noticed an improvement in playing/tone/response as the tuning was evened out (even with very small adjustments to only one note).
Basically- adjusting from note to note as we are playing will always be a skill we must have. The question is "how much". Walter Grabner suggests (if i remember correctly) that 5c is an acceptable deviation. If the deviation required it too much, then the evenness of the sound is compromised and changes in airspeed make response dodgy etc etc etc.
Interestingly, a clarinet that is bang on in tune can also be difficult to play- you so often need to be able to be a little higher OR a little lower. My Bflat instrument had a top C and Altissimo D that were dead on with the tuner. The problem was, if i needed to be just a little high i could only do this at the expense of tone (these notes will easily lose quality when pushed up). So i could move up a tad when needed, but never make the sound i liked in those circumstances (additionally, LEGATO was compromised as "pulling the pitch up" encouraged undertones). My new barrel has made the 12ths interval a little wider in the left hand (just a smidgen) and this allows me to sit back on these notes and make a sound i like.
keep playing the good tunes
donald
Post Edited (2006-12-21 20:39)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-12-21 20:20
Donald makes an excellent point -- sometimes it's more important to have available some flexibility in intonation (while maintaining good tone quality) than to have rigid, absolute "perfect" intonation as decreed by the almighty tuner.
That said, I've found plus/minus 5 cents against the tuner to be a good goal to strive for ("challenging but achievable" as they like to say in business).
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-12-22 03:38
Eu: thank you
But some people here talk about regulating and others talk about changing pitches.
***
I talked to top technicians about overhaul before,and thier $500-750 overhaul fee does NOT include any pitch correcting tuning.
I cannot imagine how much they would charge you for this kind of tuning.
(if they agree to do those works at all.)
Good tech doesn't necessarily means that they understand the whole ramification of filling or enlarging tone hole.I don't think they know acoustics
of a clarinet well enough to do those kind of repair even when they are capable of doing mechanical work.
I can understand that you want to correct tone hole when it appears to be out of tune.But what about the other 2 dozen or so notes which are directly
or indirectly related to the hole in question?
How do you make sure filling or enlarging one tone hole or two does NOT screw up the whole register ,especially altissimios?
And what if you don't like the modification later ?It is not reversible except
special cases.
It is possible that one clarinet is SO out of tune that it needs some drastic measure.
But it is ridiculous idea that EVERY R13(for example) needs pitch correcting tuning in addition to the other adjustment and regulation to be reasonably in tune to be used by a pro.
Post Edited (2006-12-22 03:55)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-12-22 03:54
Mark Charette's point on "blueprinting" --the refinement of manufacturing tolerance-- is important in this discussion.
Think about how you would specify the machining of a clarinet. You'd need to determine the "best" location of every tone hole. You'd need to know how close that hole needs to be to its nominal position --so that you can drill it in the right position most of the time. You'd need to know how big that hole needs to be, how much undercutting is needed. You'd have to decide on some of those holes what position and size compromize best serves the player.
You'd need to specify the details of the mechanisms --how high the pads should rise. Where the touchpieces should be. How much motion is required (say across the bridge mechanism), how far to open the G# and A keys, the register key.
You'd wish you knew how stiff to make the springs, how to set the ring heights.
You'd wish for a quantitative understanding of how to vary the bore diameter, where in the pipe to make the bore diameter transitions.
I doubt strongly that any manufacturer actually has specifications or these measurements --but probably has a set of "nominals" proven to make a playable instrument.
Now, consider actually making the instrument. My Boehm horn had like 21 holes in it. Location, diameter, undercutting means 63 things that can go wrong. Who knows how many bore diameter changes there are in there and where they are.
So, there might be 70 or 75 things to consider in the machining of the clarinet body. To this, one must set-up and adjust 17 pad heights, some controlled by more than one touchpiece.
That is a whole lot of things that can be done in error; there are many things that can go wrong in the manufacture of a clarinet. Further, who is to say if a given metric is wrong or far enough out of tolerance to be "wrong."
Just for grins, say that for each of our 70 things, there is a 1/100 chance that it will be done "wrong". A drill runs out and makes a hole too large, a stop doesn't index perfectly, and the hole is put in the wrong place. And undercutter gets cocked on its spindle and doesn't cut symmetrically, a pad is adjusted wrong. Then the chance that the horn will be bad is 1-(1-1/100)^70, or about 50%.
In other words, the maker who gets every hole in the horn "right" 99% of the time will end up with about half of his/er horns playing badly.
If s/he gets individual holes right 999 times out of 1000, about 7% of the product will still be flawed.
Those of us who have auditioned our way through a shop full of clarinets, would probably tend to think that way more than half of the instruments we've touched need further work. --and that many are hopeless messes that we'd never even consider as suitable for customization.
So, what do you think?
I think that the after-manufacture refinement, the "blueprinting" is an important and necessary step in making a clarinet a useful tool --particularly one that has not had the benefit of "correction" before being sold.
This will remain the case until and if a manufacturer actually knows what measurements produce a great horn, how closely that ideal must be approached and has the production capability to meet those specifications with every horn.
Even then, the player will want ring heights, key position and spring tensions customized to his/er needs.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2006-12-22 04:13
I have had Brannen work on my R13's and prestiges in the past - the difference when they came back was astounding - a completely new horn, more even response, better intonation, and it just "felt" better under my fingers - a joy to play. I now play a Yamaha CS that I like very much, but I played it right out of the box for 2 years - it's going to Brannen in January, and I can't wait to play it when it comes back!
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-12-22 04:42
Bob:Your logic is deeply flawed.
If 1out of 100 goes wrong every time,you shouldn't be in manufacturing.
And not every misalignment doesn't translate bad instrument.
Actually many many things may not be perfect and can be still decent insrtument including intonation.
physicist
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-12-22 05:19
it is easy to do tuning adjustments in a way that is temporary- so the player can undo them should they decide to.
usually there is an element of compromise involved- you can fill in a hole to make an upper register note slightly flatter.... but you might decide not to take it all the way because it will make a lower reg note too flat.
you have to make decisions about how you will tune- if you have a flat high A, will you bring the B and G down a little? (low reg E, in particular, will suffer but can be sharpened by opening the G#/C# key) or will you enlarge the hole to sharpen high A?, thus probably making the D below it sharp (very common on Buffet A clarinets). You have to decide what is most useful to you- a perfectly in tune C major scale in the upper reg, or left hand lower reg notes.
also- there may be ways you can change your fingerings (esp on altissimo notes) to accomodate a tuning change, and you may not decide to keep changes permanent until after you've tried them out for a while.
often tuning problems are not caused by the manufacturing process- they may be typical of that design (ie- the designer has decided on compromises that may not suit you). Additionally bore changes after a period of time can have an effect (in my Bflat R13, the top joint changed and the intonation was improved but the right hand needed some very slight reboring to fix it up.
donald
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-22 06:38
Tobin -
"Some tech's/players are of the opinion that Buffet clarinets are not well put together at final assembly. There have been discussions of the state of Buffet's clarinets out of the box."
I didn't realize we were talking about Buffet clarinets specifically, at least I wasn't, but anyway.....
"I doubt that tech's reseat every post as a manner of course. However, if I want key work optimized, I want it fixed from the foundation up. It should be something that is investigated and attended to as necessary."
Can you please explain this? I would appreciate it if you explain exactly what you mean by optimizing keywork, reseating posts, and what you include in the foundation and how it affects the optimization of keywork.
Also, to explain better, maybe you can give one specific example of a key that had a problem (describe the problem), needed optimization (what exactly?), and it was necessary to reseat the post to fix the problem (also explain how reseating the post helped the specific problem)?
"Bill Brannen described this process to me in particular as part of the work done on my bass. And again my bass is the best of the clarinets that I own."
So can you please describe this process? What exactly is done?
Thanks!
Bob Phillips -
Your calculations have a lot of problems. You state a lot of things as facts which are actually not facts, which caused the "logic" in your post to be ilogical.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-12-22 13:13
Sorry Clarnibass...I will actually decline to explain from a player perspective what my technician knows for two reasons.
The first is selfish...I have to fly today!
The second is practical...Bill can describe it better than I can. Brannen Woodwinds is a sponsor, and you can email him.
Happy Holidays everyone!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-22 13:47
Tobin wrote:
> The second is practical...Bill can describe it better than I
> can. Brannen Woodwinds is a sponsor, and you can email him.
Of course the Search facility here will also bring back multiple threads on the Brannens, to, so things don't need to be restated needlessly.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-12-22 15:48
My Eatons where fine from the moment i played them. They got better when I got use to them and when they had broken in.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-12-23 01:05
Well, folks, You can do your own math. The point is that it ain't simple to build a great clarinet.
Bob Phillips
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-23 12:20
Tobin -
The first reason isn't selfish. I have no problem waiting until you are back.
Your second reason isn't practical. I am actually not interested to hear from the repairer anything other than technical things. I am much more interested in the player's perspective. Maybe I'll email them to ask the technical side of this.
Please give an example of a key that had a problem (what was the problem for you specifically?) and needed optimization and had it done (what was improved from your point of view?).
Thanks!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-23 15:29
I have 1 question on the tuning question.
I have heard that due to the way the sound waves move in one or another overtone, one can adjust undercutting and hole size in a way that only changes one regester and not the other of the same finger position.
A simple example with this idea, low A and mid E- adding tape to the top half of the hole will lower A and E will be lowered a little. addind tape to the bottom half will lower the E. I have tried this a bit and not found much difference in the way it affects on the upper and lower regesters. Maybe I'm not getting just how to do it well.
If this rings any bells for anyone please fill me in.
thanks
-S
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-12-23 16:26
as i understand it.....
top half of tone hole= will lower upper register notes more than lower reg (but only to a slight degree)
lower half of tone hole= affects "voicing" (tone) a great deal but has minimal influence on intonation.
i'm off for a surf
merry xmas
donald
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