 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: joannew
Date: 2006-12-20 19:17
The centerfold of the new clarinet magazine shows a collection of Backun's beautiful barrels & bells. Can anyone tell me what kind of wood that multicoloured 66mm barrel is made from? It must be painted?!
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Author: susieray
Date: 2006-12-20 21:17
I don't know exactly what kinds of wood are used, but I talked to the folks in the Backun booth in Atlanta, and was told they are made of several layers laminated together and that is how they get the "stripey" look. I would guess the woods were stained in those colors
beforehand.
Post Edited (2006-12-20 21:17)
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-20 21:27
Susie, that layered wood sounds like that old Conn Pan Americal "plywood clarinet" from back in the 1940's. It did look mighty pretty and was not subject to the normal cracking problem due to the biasing of the wood grain in the layers, but apparently had problem of ply separation and warpage because of different expansion and contraction rates, and directions, among the various plies. Maybe those problems have been resolved by the Backun folks. ?? Eu
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-12-21 03:01
Attachment: apwwebsite048012.jpg (3k)
Attachment: pen.jpg (4k)
It is possible to create a multilayered turning stock that incorporates just about any wood.
In fact, pen-turners can purchase such stock from online companies such as Packard and Rockler.
Additionally, synthetics are also available.
The Pan American mentioned above was a rosewood veneer applied to the clarinet. That is a DIFFERENT technique, akin to veneers applied to furniture.
oops, almost forgot the disclaimer. I make and sell barrels.
One other thing.... Centerfolds are supposed to have a staple in the navel.
This one had the staple under the bell ring and in a barrel...and it didn't unfold...bummer. I was hoping Morrie would at least have a model like the Nascar folks. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2006-12-21 03:09)
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Author: susieray
Date: 2006-12-21 03:59
"The Pan American mentioned above was a rosewood veneer applied to the clarinet."
No, no, no, Allan. The Pan Americans were laminate. I know, I have owned a couple.
![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-12-21 04:17
Yes...a circumferential laminate, with the rosewood completely encircling, right?
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-12-21 04:22
Attachment: panamerican.jpg (23k)
like this ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2006-12-21 04:26)
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2006-12-21 04:53
Some good photos of the PanAmerican plywood clarinet at:
www.uark.edu/ua/nc/NCCollectionPage/Page/ConnPanAmerican.htm
I've seen some offered for sale at about $500 or so.
Interesting curiosity...wonder how they sound.....
Clarinet Redux
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Author: susieray
Date: 2006-12-21 08:39
Ooops, tried to attach photos, didn't work. Will try again.
Post Edited (2006-12-21 17:46)
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Author: susieray
Date: 2006-12-21 08:49
Attachment: pan am 4.jpg (392k)
Attachment: bell 2.jpg (387k)
"Interesting curiosity...wonder how they sound....."
They were just a student model and I have heard the intonation was not all that great. But that was not due to the material they were made of. I never played mine because they were not in playable condition and I never bothered to have them repadded.
The wood is nice looking though..
"Yes...a circumferential laminate, with the rosewood completely encircling, right?"
With all due respect, have you ever actually inspected one?
The ones I had were NOT veneered, they were definitely laminate. I am attaching some pictures of one I owned. Evidently there were also some similar-looking plastic ones made, with a veneer of some sort. But the wooden ones were laminate.
Susie
Post Edited (2006-12-21 09:06)
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-21 13:57
I've only seen 2 of them in my life, but however the layers were put together, they could, and did on occasion, separate (rather than split like solid wood clarinets) . . . and they could, and did on occasion, take on a banana shape like one that I saw. Eu
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-21 14:28
It looks very like "rotary veneer" to me.
http://www.awi-wa.com/_hidden/veneercut.htm
Which means that it looks very like solid timber that has been simply turned, providing that timber has prominent growth rings involving contrasting shades.
As in the first bowl at
http://www.gregmorriswoodturning.co.nz/bowls.html
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-21 14:36
Did B&H experiment with laminated wooden clarinets back in the '50s as well (and also de-laminated when they were subjected to normal laying conditions)?
The only place plywood works best in musical instruments, or the only instrument that plywood is ideal for (structurally) is a concert harp - the Salvi concert harps have 40 layers of beech in the neck, so that definitely won't twist in a hurry!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2006-12-21 16:00
Chris - and the only thing in the clarinet world plywood is good for is cases !!
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-12-21 16:12
By laminate, I am refering more to a solid piece of stock which is made from multiple layers and then turned as a single unit, creating a pattern that shows different woods.
The PanAmerican has only rosewood on the surface. If you cut the clarinet lengthwise, the same layer of rosewood crust would appear on the tone hole side and on the thumbhole side. I call this veneer. Of course, if you place the veneer on the clarinet, you have "laminated" it circumferentially.
This type of laminate can delaminate.
The composited type (multilayers turned as one unit) can split, crack off, splinter, etc, but the entire outer surface will not shed off as one unit.
Regarding the "banana bore", oboist guru Cymer (Simer, Symer?) near Phila. loves them on an oboe. Probably not good for clarinet.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-21 16:29
If you want to see a banana bore, you should see my Marigaux cor anglais top joint!
It plays like a dream, so don't let this factor put you off - I tried it before I looked at the bore, but the main thing is how it plays, and I have no complaints.
Maybe it's the (slightly) long(er) top joint bore that contributes to it's quality.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: susieray
Date: 2006-12-21 16:46
Attachment: 100_3053.jpg (756k)
"By laminate, I am refering more to a solid piece of stock which is made from multiple layers and then turned as a single unit, creating a pattern that shows different woods."
That is exactly what the Conn Pan American "Propeller wood" clarinets were. At least the ones I had. You could look on the ends and inside the bore and see that. Both of the horns that I had were that way. Not veneered.
I'm attaching another picture of the bell; you can kinda see inside the socket. The wood grain on the inside exactly matched what was on the outside, and also it went all the way through. Sorry I don't have any better pictures. I'd take some more but I don't have either of the horns in my possesion any longer.
Post Edited (2006-12-21 16:50)
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-21 16:46
Chris: Actually I meant that the clarinet was warped -- actually bent like a banana! I had hear of that happening but only seen it that one time. The difference between the center and ends of the clarinet was about 1/2". Eu
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-21 17:03
I've seen Selmer Bundy oboes with badly warped joints as you described - not sure if they used kiln dried timber to make them.
Fortunately my Marigaux cor only has the banana top joint bore - the only way I reckon this would have happened was after the pilot hole was drilled and the joint set aside to dry out before the next stage in the manufacturing process.
Then when it was centered for turning the outside down to the finished dimensions, the joint had warped as it dried and had now stablised, but turning it has made the outside prefectly straight even though the bore is wonky.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: joannew
Date: 2006-12-21 17:06
so no enlightenment on the Backun barrell then? This one is not pictured on the website, so maybe it's a new experiment.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-21 17:11
I think Josh posted some photos of ones he bought a while back - either on here or on the SOTW forum.
Some looked like mint humbugs and some had various coloured layers.
Search 'Everton Mints' on here or on SOTW as that's what I likened them to.
Yep, there in this thread:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=227026&t=220405
Scroll down to find the links.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-12-21 17:13)
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Author: susieray
Date: 2006-12-21 18:09
"so no enlightenment on the Backun barrell then? This one is not pictured on the website, so maybe it's a new experiment."
Well, as I mentioned earlier, the multicolored barrel is a laminate. I was told it was designed for players that live in really dry climates like Phoenix Arizona; less chance of cracking I suppose. But my guess is it is mostly for fun. Like the multilayered turning stock Allan mentioned for making pens, etc.
You could always email Backun Musical and ask exactly
what type of wood it is.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-23 10:04
Susierae provided an attached photo of a so-called laminated bell.
I cannot see how this can be laminated, because the lines between the dark and the light are blurred and irregular.
That is far more in keeping with a grain that has light and dark contrasting area during each annual period of growth, as I suggested in my last post.
Laminated timber would have far cleaner lines between the dark and the light.
IMO
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-12-23 15:03
"Laminated timber would have far cleaner lines between the dark and the light."
Perhaps the glue that was used back then(Conn)...and which was the culprit as regards delamination....caused the illusion.
Bob Draznik
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Author: susieray
Date: 2006-12-23 16:52
Gordon,
I guess you will have to see one in person to believe it then. I wish I had taken better pictures of the sockets and tenons, where you could see that the "grain lines" are in a straight line across and match perfectly on the opposite side. It would seem to me that would not be the case if they were growth rings. Hope I am making sense.
Sue
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-23 18:37
Staining will, even with plywood, yield blurred and irregular patterns. Certain layers will suck up more colour, sometimes along a "fake grain" between wood and glue. Stained good plywood can be nearly unindistinguishable from laminated wood. Susie's PanAm definitely looks like made from plywood billets.
(And why would someone go through hoops of laminating a cheaply made clarinet with an expensive veneering process?)
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-23 20:33
I've seen a lot of wood-turned, non-laminated products, where the the grain is indistinguishable at both ends of a diameter. And they always have this gradual change between the dark and light rings, mokst apparent (as in this bell) where the stripes appear wider. Perhaps this is more difficult to imagine if one has never seen timber with strong colour contrast in each annual growth rings.
I have also seen many laminated-before-turning products. Irrespective of colour of the timber, there is a always a clean glue line, similar to the clean line between each piece of timber in a parquet floor.
Imagine how difficult it would be to do these unlaminated examples with laminations (yet note the very clean coklour changes.!)
Look Here
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-12-23 20:49
Just a small addition to the chat...
The barrels actually ARE pictured on the website. If you go to the "Contact Us" page, you will see two of them.
Mine was very blue...I called him "Smurfy". :-) They also have one they call the "Bubblegum" barrel, which is a predominantly pink laminate with some blue/purple streaks. I am not entirely sure what species of wood is used in the lamination process, I forgot to ask Morrie when I was with him. He'd be happy to tell you, I'm sure!
They play quite well, and also (according to Morrie) are quite crack-resistant, and are very popular in the Southwest.
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Author: cuscoclarinet
Date: 2006-12-24 15:06
In his response, Chris P states-
"The only place plywood works best in musical instruments, or the only instrument that plywood is ideal for (structurally) is a concert harp"
Having had a shop next to a piano shop for many years, I have to mention that pianos, even the finest pianos, Bossendorf, Stienway, etc, are all "plywood". As a woodworker by trade I can tell you, it would be impossible to bend the great curves of a grand piano without lamination.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-24 15:32
There's plywood and there's plywood.
One sort consists of multiple layers of flat sheets, glued together to form billets or planks and later treated like any other kind of (grown) wood. Those nice-looking surfboard fins are made of this material, as are wooden propellers.
The other kind consists of multiple layers of sheets that are pressed into form and glued together in a mould of some kind, using heat and pressure. This is what we know of Aalto and Eames furniture and is often referred to as "laminated" but AFAIK the correct term is "form-pressed plywood".
In my daily vocabulary, "laminated" means "veneered", often seen in chipboard furniture and floorings, or describes the process to create visitor badges or durable menu cards.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-24 16:06
To me, a 'laminate' or 'laminated' means multiple layers (as in plywood, windscreens and leaf springs in some vehicles) of the same or similar substances to give structural rigidity (more than a single thick layer of the solid substance would offer), whereas 'veneer' means a single layer to give the appearance of solid substance (as in chipboard faced with a veneer to make it look like something it isn't, or a veneer applied to front teeth for cosmetic reasons).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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