 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2006-12-18 18:09
I truly doubt things will change in Vienna...this attitude in any work place is truly deplorable.
David Dow
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-18 18:16
Unless the state stops funding, nothing will change.
I'll wait for a lawsuit from EU side...
--
Ben
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Author: bawa
Date: 2006-12-18 18:41
Or people keep paying to go and see them.
One thing about the first article. Why does he refers to a Japanese player as being of "color"? What colour? white? Reminds of my Japanese friend who spent a part of her childhood in apartheid South Africa. As the status of the Japanese economy rose, so did her official color, from brown to white.
While the author makes a good case against one type of discrimination, he also using another at the same time.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-18 18:44
Sadly, people still buy tickets to go hear this orchestra . . . that shows how far we still have to go if we are ever to eliminate gender discrimination that remains very pervasive throughout our society the world over. Eu
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-18 18:50
Bawa,
I think the author uses "color" as a placeholder for "different ethnic background" or whatever drawer you'd put "non-caucasian males" in.
(I don't mean to start a discussion about politically correct terminology)
--
Ben
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-12-18 18:56
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2006-12-20 17:23)
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-18 19:02
Something having a wonderful and unique sound in and of itself is not sufficient justification to perpetuate a wrong to continue a tradition . . . if I am wrong, then let us give back to the opera the wonderful und unique sound of the lost castrotto voice. Eu
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-12-18 19:16
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2006-12-20 17:23)
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Author: george
Date: 2006-12-18 19:25
I don't believe the hiring practices of the Vienna Philharmonic to be any of my business.
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2006-12-18 19:30
More like "Weiner" Philharmonic, as in "you gotta be kidding me". This kind of crap shouldn't flush in the 21st century.
Reminds me of a great Miles Davis quote, when he was getting racist crap from black folks about hiring a white guy (Bill Evans, piano):
"I don't care if he's green and has red breath- if he can play like that, I want him!"
Anyone who thinks artistic standards have anything to do with race or sex has got their head in the sand or some other place untouched by the sun.It's not about "political correctness"- it's about racism and sexism.
Are their hiring policies truly based on musical meritocracy? There are no non-white non-males who can play at the level of the Vienna Homeboys????
Racism and sexism- still alive and well!
www.johnmcgann.com
Post Edited (2006-12-18 19:37)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-18 19:32
george wrote:
> I don't believe the hiring practices of the Vienna Philharmonic
> to be any of my business.
If you support the VPO, they are.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-18 19:33
David,
...just reversing a bad thing doesn't automatically make it a good thing.
What bugs me is the state-side support of a "protected environment" where not automatically the best one gets a job but one that first and foremost fits a requirement that is outside his/her own influence.
If the VPO want to pursue their white male thing, be it, but without taxpayers' unqualified (they don't have a say where their money is spent) support.
I realise that our "own" (heck, I pay for it) opera orchestra must be really substandard, with 40% women and I don't know how many ethnic minorities.
--
Ben
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-12-18 19:48
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2006-12-20 17:24)
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-18 19:49
By the way, if the VPO has reached such wonderful heights of artistic splendor, then many top players of all genders & races would quite likely have the ability and ambition to shoot for the epitome of their musical craft - - a seat in the VPO. No suffering here when the orchestra figuratively "castrates" what is probably well over 50% of the aspiring musicians (all females plus all non- caucasian males)??? Eu
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-18 19:55
David Peacham wrote:
> Ben - you are missing the point.
I don't think so. This is not a "men's club" - this is a state-supported institution.
When the VPO decides to refuse all state support then the problem changes in nature.
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Author: george
Date: 2006-12-18 20:07
From Mark:
"This is not a "men's club" - this is a state-supported institution."
But it isn't my state.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-12-18 20:10
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2006-12-20 17:24)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-18 20:11
What bugs me is that they use their oh-so-unique sound as an excuse for racist and sexist (white men white composers white audience) remarks and behaviour, and taxpayers are wilfully supporting that attitude when they shove nearly 3 million $ down their white throats.
I couldn't care less if the VPO were a strictly private function with strictly private funding. (Well it'd still annoy me, but each club is allowed its own policy, so...)
--
Ben
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-18 20:14
Nor is it mine, meaning only that I can't vote against those who perpetuate such a discriminatory system. As a person, however, I can still voice my opinion regarding that which I believe to be wrong, be it discrimination, torture, genocide, or whatever, and whether it is done in the USA or elsewhere is irrelevant to the issue of right or wrong. Eu
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2006-12-18 20:15
Ben- I play in your "own" opera orchestra. Thanks for your support! Now, if I could only pursuade all those women to play properly...
Actually one of our (female) harpists used to play in the VPO. She said it was pretty unbearable being a woman in that band.
One other thought- I've sat in on enough auditions to realise that covert discrimination based on gender and nationality takes place quite a lot. There isn't much you can do to stop it- especially in supposedly "fair" Europe :-(
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2006-12-18 20:20
My fellow Americans: ¿Why do some of you seem to think that your notion of what is right and wrong are universal and should be applied to all the peoples of the world? This is why many in the rest of the world see Americans as arrogant.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-18 20:22
george wrote:
> From Mark:
>
> "This is not a "men's club" - this is a state-supported
> institution."
>
> But it isn't my state.
Neither was South Africa during apartheid.
Or Alabama during the civil rights struggle.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-18 20:24
elmo lewis wrote:
> My fellow Americans
If you'd choose to note - it's not just your "fellow Americans" who object.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2006-12-18 20:40
To those who support the VPO policy.
Having gotten through my music degrees against horrid prejudice I find this unacceptable and consider those who would support anyone's refusal to let anyone but white males particpate to be on a level with the Ku Klux Klan or the Arian Brotherhood.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-18 20:43
Liquorice,
> Now, if I could only persuade all those women to play properly...
Well, how about setting a good example? ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Re the "covert discrimination" - maybe there should really be behind-a-screen auditions or a mixed pro/layperson jury etc etc., I don't know. I acknowledge that it is extremely difficult for an individual to remain objective, seasoned jury or not.
We can only guess how many obstacles a Thomas Quasthoff was facing till he arrived where he is today.
--
Ben
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2006-12-18 20:54
Elmo, how's this for American Arrogance, from a famous American named Bill Gates:
“All lives — no matter where they are being led — have equal value.”
He is putting his money where his mouth is, as well.
www.johnmcgann.com
Post Edited (2006-12-18 20:55)
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2006-12-18 21:14
Dear Elmo,
I think that this board is fairly well represented by a variety of diverse nationalities and ideas. Heck a lot of the time we can't agree on the most simple of things amongst ourselves. However everyone is entitled to an opinion and if certain countries don't like it that's just to bad. I thought that music was international and we are all part of the same family. As such if we feel there is an injustice we are entitled to an opinion and voice it.
...Jim
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-12-18 21:28
The reason I posted the links is that I'm ambivalent about the VPO. They play wonderfully, and their iron traditions are part of the reason. However, this doesn't excuse their dreadful behavior. There are bad traditions as well as good, and our sense of what's acceptable evolves.
I was in high school in the deep South in the late 1950s, which racism was not simply acceptable but expected and demanded. Even those of us who were the children of non-racists (my parents were northern leftists) were swept along by Vachel Lindsay's famous poem The Congo http://www.bartleby.com/104/81.html. I defy anyone to read it and not be affected by the pounding rhythms and vivid imagery. I also defy anyone not to feel disgusted today by the virulent racism, which I felt only vaguely in 1959.
There's a great difference between what we actually feel and what others (and we ourselves) know we ought to feel.
The Congo is an important piece of the American culture, yet you couldn't teach it in a high school English literature class today, and you probably couldn't teach it in a college or graduate level class. I think this is particularly so because racism is ingrained in all whites, and reading The Congo forces it out into the open. I certainly recognize it in myself.
As a man, I wonder how much admiration of the VPO involves my own latent sexism (even though it's less violent than the racism I remember from my early years). Certainly I feel no reluctance to damn the VPO's actions. The idea that women would somehow corrupt or pollute the orchestra is simply frivolous.
The more difficult question is how much the VPO's bad actions should affect my enjoyment of their playing. The best anatomical drawings ever made were by an ardent Nazi, who worked in microscopic swastikas. Important discoveries about the human body's reaction to extreme cold were produced by throwing Jews into the winter ocean and monitoring their agonizing deaths. There is serious debate about whether the drawings and information should be used at all.
On a less vile level, how do I listen to Swartzkopf, who appeared on Goering's arm wearing enormous plundered rubies? Should I listen to Gieseking or Cortot, who were ardent collaborators?
And to come back to the posting, one of the world's great orchestras is behaving very badly. They deserve condemnation, and I listen to them with mixed feelings. Nevertheless, I listen to them.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2006-12-18 21:48
Ken Shaw wrote:
> And to come back to the posting, one of the world's great
> orchestras is behaving very badly. They deserve condemnation,
> and I listen to them with mixed feelings. Nevertheless, I
> listen to them.
>
I respect your postings here more than most. However, now that you have further enlightened me, I choose not to listen to them until they change their unconscionable behavior. There is enough great music in the world that does not have such stigma.
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2006-12-18 21:51
Thanks Ken- I'll find other Ravel interpreters than Gieseking! I had no idea...
www.johnmcgann.com
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2006-12-18 22:16
In 1972, I was at a reception for members of the VPO at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. A group of us were talking to a group of first violin players, when one of them said to an aquaintance of mine (I think she was an oboist) "We have one woman in the orchestra, and that is enough."
I recall that, at the time, two things struck me. First, while such a comment might have been common just 10 years previous, in 1972 it was no longer acceptable. Second was just how dumb that comment was.
So, here it is, 36 years later, with no change. This behavior wouldn't fly on this side of the pond. Maybe someone can explain how it survives over there.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-12-18 22:27
The US Supreme court: (paraphrase ) "There is no such thing as separate but equal"*
BUT:
Austrian law may differ when it comes to funding institutions. We can not control that...except when it comes to not purchasing tickets or CDs.
What I find surprising is how the WP embraced Leonard Bernstein, an American of Jewish parentage, as a favored guest conductor/collaborator.
![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif) I reckon that the conductor does not change the "unique" sound. (Rhetorical comment)
*As such, we saw a decline is all-one-gender schools, at least in the public sector.
My own all-academic all-male public High School fell to this law, even though a separate (and unequal?) all-female school was up the street.(Philadelphia Central High and Girls High)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2006-12-18 22:29)
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-12-18 23:07
this kind of moronic thinking persists because these privileged upper class twits believe that they have some right to offend 52% of the world because they are so "special". Any members of the orchestra who might not personally support this policy do so through acceptance of this policy. Any members of this orchestra who ARE NOT upper class twits obviously believe in acting as though they were.
my fortune cookie yesterday said...
"Your principles mean more to you than any money or success"
a pity that a cheap fortune cookie can make more sense than the musical elite in the classical music world (though sadly unsuprising)
i heard my friend Dr Miranda Wilson play cello on Saturday night, world class playing and a stunning performance- this orchestra insults women like my friend and i don't like this.
keep playing the good tunes
donald
Post Edited (2006-12-19 02:03)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2006-12-19 02:30
The Munich PHIL has also treated a female trombonist from the USA badly too...this was of course after they hired her.
David Dow
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Author: rgames
Date: 2006-12-19 05:07
I think comparisons to the civil rights movement are a bit out of place - there's a huge difference between established discrimination on a large scale and "behind-the-scenes" discrimination in one orchestra. If you want to complain about state-sponsored (or even state-ignored) discrimination by the Austrian gov't, then there's a comparison. But one orchestra? It's many different orders of magnitude, both in terms of the consequences and the number of people affected.
I just think it's silly. I don't believe it's representative of the classical music world in general (thank goodness!) so I don't think that the VPO's practices have any real effect on the opportunities for minority musicians. Think of it this way - by taking on the VPO you're helping out, what, three or four people a year, at best (and those people are likely to have many other opportunities, anyway)? Unless you start seeing other orchestras look to the "VPO Model" as the way to go then think I contend there are much better battles to be fought.
It's a silly, backwards organization. But I say apply a level of concern commensurate with its influence on the hiring practices of other orchestras. I don't see any indication that the practice is endemic, so I just treat it as a curiosity.
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-19 07:04
On this amazingly disturbing subject I think there is some good news to be noticed. Although, the VPO still has this horrible "tradition", there have been about 20 people on this thread to comment their feeling on the subject. And all of them, including me, have the same idea- IT'S BAD- really bad! I think that THAT is a good thing; although the rules are still in place at the VPO, we are all against it and I believe that is evidence of steps forward in the direction that we want the world to be like. The change is not as fast as we’d like, but I think it is changing. 70 years ago, this issue would not be discussed as just about everyone would agree, “Of course we exclude women and minorities. Why ever not?”
All the voices have the right idea. All except one. To David Peacham of Sussex- you clearly are supporting racism and sexism to everyone that read your contribution. And what a surprise that you are a white male. Your call for a "seperate but equal" orchestra as a "competition of artistic quality" reminds me a bit of the era in which America had the Negro Leagues in Baseball.
The reason that it is wrong to exclude people from jobs based on things other than doing the job, is because of this one logical sentence that could get popular again if we allow it- “If racism and sexism is good enough for a prestigious organization like the VPO then it’s good enough for me, too.” And THAT is not a good influence on the world. If you (or anyone) can explain to all of us exactly, or even generally, how a tall white man playing violin yields better sound than, say, a short Asian woman (of which there are more and more of in the conservatories now), then maybe we can have a conversation. Tell me- Is it the particular angle that men have to sit due to the presence of their reproductive organs that allows the tendons of the left hand to have better pitch? Does a woman’s lipstick and foundation dampen the vibration from the tailpiece and bridge more than the naked lip of a man?
But what if it’s winter and a male violinist is using Menthol Chapstick? Oh my God!! The acoustics of the hall will be destroyed and all the effort of practice the musicians had done for their whole lives and the ethereal joy of hearing Mahler that was to come will be sacrificed in vain like the life of a frog that works hard to not get eaten as a tadpole and is later squished as it crosses a road to go to the other pond in it’s first attempt to mate. And for what? Perfume molecules coming from aforementioned Chapstick. Oh, humanity!
…
Basically, this rule is placing a penalty on people for something that they have no control over and that is just not fair.
-Sky
PS. I am a white man.
Post Edited (2008-01-23 04:20)
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Author: bawa
Date: 2006-12-19 08:57
OK, I went to Vienna this year and the thought of going and watching the orchestra didn't even cross my mind because I had known about their discrimination policy. This is something unthinkable when I visit London, lets say, because the first thing I would do is to try and take in a concert or two.
The other thing, someone referred to color=different ethnic background. Why not call the guy Japanese or Korean or Asian or Indian or whatever? Whats this about colour? Is the rest of the orchestra Transparent?
Someone else said that this wouldn't happen this side of the pond: I accept your knowledge as true but please do not lump the rest of the other side of the pond (which is just as big) into one hole. We are talking of one orchestra/country.
I do think non support by audiences around the world would work (just as the anti-apartheid boycott worked in the end).
And the government funding is the worst. I know there maybe other problems in Austria, but that does not mean you should not put one wrong right, simply because there are other wrongs.
All this about tradition, if that were the case, maybe humankind wouldn't have come out of the caves, after all it was tradition to live there at one point and they seemed to be getting along fine.
Anyway, I reckon maybe I am not the one to make a judgement on the Vienna sound: after all, if I would not be able to play the "same way" because of my sex, maybe my ears don't hear "the same way" either!
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-12-19 09:43
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2006-12-20 17:25)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-19 11:10
David Peacham wrote:
> I'm sure someone would like to write to IMG to tell them about
> the error on their website, when they claim that the WP
> receives no state subsidy:
>
> http://www.imgartists.com/?page=artist&id=315&c=2
The subsidy is gone; however they still get support (though the article says the taxes cover the support - but that's irrelevant - I believe they should get _no_ support and still pay their taxes) and the tie-in to the state-supported Opera is still there. Along with a few other state tie-ins if you want to do more research.
You're right David - a hypothesis is that it could be that those guys, by being the "right sort" of guys, can be the only ones to produce that sound, so ...
Let them become a complete "boys club" - no officially approved and sponsored "farm system" - I believe that private clubs can espouse any nonsense they want - at least then we know "who's who". And help to make pariahs of them.
I used to think one person couldn't change anything in the world ...
Then I started a web site ...
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Author: ajhogan
Date: 2006-12-19 11:16
In regard to David Peacham's arguement that the VP does not hire women because they are trying to preserve a certain "sound", I bring up the Berlin Philharmonic. Just under 30 years ago they were a leading all-male orchestra, does anyone believe that their prominence has declined due to the inclusion of female and non-white musicians?
Since we are expressing our opinions, I would like to stick up for David. Even though I do not agree with him, I find his arguement interesting and insightful. It is an angle that I have never approached this issue from, and I appreciate his viewpoint. But hey, what do I know, I'm just a white male (harmless sarcasm).
Austin
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-19 12:24
The VPO's subsidies aren't gone - they just changed funnels. It's the Vienna Staatsoper who is getting all the funds, and as its orchestra is nearly 100% identical with the VPO, the VPO members are de facto employees of the Staatsoper, with all the bells and whistles, pensions, overtime and whatnot.
Read it on the VPO's home page.
<quote>
In accordance with Philharmonic statutes, only a member of the Vienna State Opera Orchestra can become a member of the Vienna Philharmonic. (...) The engagement in the Vienna State Opera Orchestra provides the musicians a financial stability which would be impossible to attain without relinquishing their autonomy to private or corporate sponsors.
</quote>
--
Ben
Post Edited (2006-12-19 12:26)
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Author: Imperial Zeppelin
Date: 2006-12-19 13:13
I know! Let's get America's favorite Austrian, Arnold "The Govenator" back to Austria! He did say "I'll be back", didn't he? He can take care of those "girlie men!"
OK, humor has been injected...
By only hiring white males, that leaves other opportunities for excellent musicians, be they green as Miles Davis said, in other organizations.
You like the VPO, attend concerts and buy recordings. You don't like them or their policies, then don't. It's all a matter of choice...
Remember, the "longer you verk here, diverse it gets!"
And yes, America doesn't spend enough on Ice Hockey!!!
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2006-12-19 13:41
The trombonist of which David Dow spoke and her husband are the hosts of the website referenced by Ken Shaw at the start of this thread. The account of her long fight with Munich is incredible.
see http://www.osborne-conant.org/ladies.htm
Post Edited (2006-12-19 13:49)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-12-19 13:50
Whyizit category:
The all white, all male Weiner Philharmoniker has a conductor/music director. He (a male) is recovering from an illness in his home in ......JAPAN.
So a Japanese (I guess Maestro Osawa really transcends national catagorization at this point in his long career) artist can lead the WP, but NOT play in it??? "Howscome?" as they say in Western PA.
I already mentioned the famous association of the WP with Lenny Bernstein.
Reason for this inconsistency???
Could it be the selling power of the conductor on CDs?
Could it be artistic?
Another reason?
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2006-12-19 15:32
Most of the members seem satisfied...why can't they have the orchestra they want?
There is a well known all woman symphony, no complaints about them.
How many westerners are in the symphonies of Japan and China?
And another thing; why can't the women in our symphonies wear white tie and tails like everyone else; Victor-Victoria could do it why can't they?
Clarinet Redux
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-12-19 15:44
I think I saw only one response from an obvious woman participant but then I'm never sure it's Ken who is posting or Mrs.
Bob Draznik
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Author: robertgh
Date: 2006-12-19 15:58
Ken—
If find VPO's Orchestra Manager, Werner Resel's comment that "The Vienna Philharmonic is an orchestra of white men that plays music by white men for white people" astounding — particularly the phrase "for white people!" Perhaps Herr Resel's artistic vision could be further advanced by posting ushers at the doors of the hall to screen the audience for racial impurity.
Sorry, Herr Resel, but this is one white guy who will not be shelling out anymore cash for your "pure" product any time soon. Thank you, Ken Shaw, for dragging these odious proceedings into the light of day.
____
Robert Hunter
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-19 16:07
Old Geezer wrote:
> There is a well known all woman symphony, no complaints about
> them.
Not state-supported. There is a very good gay & lesbian orchestra in San Franciso set up the same way.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2006-12-19 16:18
I would like to thank Ken for bringing this up. I read the poem the Congo and was sickened.
Having gone into music rather than math for my first degree having been unable to cope with the prejudice there and then told by my primary instructor that women weren't strong enough to play the classical guitar I have a very personal hatred of those who support prejudice or any kind. I got very tired of hearing "pretty good for a girl" when I'd perform, even with that little chuckle from the unenlightened. I am very happy to have gotten my math degree at a late age and have a salary equal to my engineer husband's and do interesting work. Thanks to those who fought for me and others like me, who were not the stereotype for their race or gender.
I appreciate Ken's bringing the musical small mindedness up to continue to fend it off. It is not ok for big orchestra's, it makes it ok for those who harbor such views to continue in other musical venues.
My sincere thanks to Ken and all who continue to support minorities and women in our quest to be treated as the individuals we actually are rather than stereotypes.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2006-12-19 16:39
The members seem satisfied...why can't they have the orchestra they want?
How many westeners are in the symphonies of Japan and China?
There is more than one all-women symphony.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: bawa
Date: 2006-12-19 17:19
Old Geezer,
For the umpteenth time we are talking of a state funded orchestra of a EU country not a private club (otherwise they could play upside down in their pyjamas for all I care). Ditto re private all-women symphonies.
How many "Westerners" have auditioned for orchestras in Japan etc. and been rejected? This is not a rhetorical question, I am asking if you have any real data, not just imaginary situations.
Ginny with you all the way as a woman and the mother of a "girl" clarinet player.
Ken, thanks for the link to bartleby, it was not a work I have heard of before.
Post Edited (2006-12-19 17:22)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2006-12-19 18:10
A freind of mine from locally had no problem getting a job with the Hong Kong Philharmonic....this line of arguement makes no sense whatsoever.
David Dow
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-12-19 18:35
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2006-12-20 17:26)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-19 18:43
David Peacham wrote:
>
> But there's another aspect to all of this that continues to
> puzzle me. Picture this: you are a first-rate woman player,
> good enough to get into any orchestra in the world. You choose
> the WP, one of the few orchestras which will accept you only
> grudgingly, where you will be made to feel an outsider,
> unwanted.
Picture this:
You're a woman who is a first rate manager, and you want to become an executive at a major corporation. You choose (name damn near any company 20 years ago), where you will be made an outsider, and will bear the brunt of sexist jokes and worse.
Thank goodness a few brave women went that route and paved the way for the rest ... even though there's far to go in that venue, too!
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2006-12-19 18:46
The Austrian Federal Government gives the orchestra almost $3,000,000 a year; and apparently tacit approval to it's hiring practices.
It reminds me a little of when the German clarinetists joined together to insist on banning someone who played a French boehm system!
Did that guy ever get hired?
Sooner or later someone or some group will get together and boycott of their international recordings and tours...and wham, 20% women and minorities overnight almost.
You live long enough and you see a lot of unusal things...I can remember when the orchestras out here (SF and LA) were not quite world class and new hires were almost always member's students and/or relatives.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-12-19 18:47
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2006-12-20 17:28)
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Author: ginny
Date: 2006-12-19 18:56
What compels these players to do this? Do they think they are striking a blow for womankind? Do they not care if they spend their working lives surrounded by men who hate them?
David Peacham
Because someone had to refuse to ride at the back of the bus in Selma, Alabama or it would never end.
I stuck to the guitar for many years and was overjoyed as the wave of great women guitarists who followed, told were we told we couldn't do it, and did it unwelcome as we were. In some small way I paved the way for Sharon Ibsen and Alice Artz. My dear first boss, went into math and became a top rate actuary, one of the first women to go into this man's job. Now I do this highly skilled math job and make GOOD money and INTERESTING work, rather than languishing in the pink ghetto choosing only to be a secretary, teacher or nurse.
I did hate that every performance I gave seemed to be judged for ALL women.
And I thank all the brave unwanted pushy women and minorities who refused to leave and those who support them. I smile at my paychecks and the fun I have working.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-19 19:04
David Peacham wrote:
> Mark, I don't know what it's like where you live, but where I
> live we didn't just have female senior execs in 1986, we had a
> female prime minister.
Oh blather. Make it 50 years ago. Or, make that a Turk. Or a Pakistani. Do you see the point yet?
I doubt it.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-12-19 19:16
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2006-12-20 17:27)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-19 19:19
David Peacham wrote:
> But that's not the case now. My question is, why are women
> _still_ fighting to join the WP, where they know they will be
> unwelcome, when the vast majority of orchestras would welcome
> them?
Because there's still one bus company, still one company, still one orchestra, that lives as an anachronism, as a morally repugnant operation.
South Africa was "just one country".
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-19 19:19
<edited - please delete post --Ben>
--
Ben
Post Edited (2006-12-19 19:22)
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2006-12-19 19:40
Quote:
Really, as a black man or woman, why would you care?
"If you have to ask, you'll never know"- Louis Armstrong
www.johnmcgann.com
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-12-19 19:55
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2006-12-20 17:27)
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Author: ginny
Date: 2006-12-19 19:57
jmcgann wrote:
> Quote:
Really, as a black man or woman, why would you care?
>
>
> "If you have to ask, you'll never know"- Louis Armstrong
That's a nice quote.
In answer to why fight the remaining prejudice, at great personal sacrafice. Mark put it well. One bus company is too many. One country is too many. And one world class orchestra is too many.
I would only add that some may think that race and gender bias is extinct, but indeed it is long lived. The VPO just gives an outlet for those with bias to admire as they keep their own views.
The men I've met who still have or support these views are typically (but not always) elderly - born before WWII and often seem to have non-working spouses or spouses with very traditional 'pin money' sorts of jobs. There are of course many of this age and even those with the luxury of an at home partner, moral and flexible enough to have understood the traditions they were raised in are wrong.
I do hope the women's orchestras have found a male harpist. ;-)
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2006-12-19 20:00
Hi David- No, for me knowing a musician sucked up to the Nazis does mess with my being able to enjoy his or her playing- a bit like watching a wife beating sports figure. I don't think me not watching him is going to change his behavior, but it messes with my enjoyment.
I'm never going to hear Debussy or Ravel played by Gieseking without picturing some horrific stuff. That's just me, maybe I'm thin skinned.
www.johnmcgann.com
Post Edited (2006-12-19 20:00)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-12-19 20:23
David -
I listen to Gieseking, who was, at best, naive and detatched. And I listen to Cortot, about whom there is no doubt. Each of them had so much to say that I put aside my ambivalence. I also listen to Furtwängler's famous Beethoven 9th, with all the good Germans belting out "all men are brothers."
And I listen to the VPO, even though my pleasure is somewhat curdled. It's their present behavior, not their past, that motivated me to start this discussion.
Ken Shaw
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-19 20:45
Those women who fought the hardest battles, in the face of the most hostile working environments, felt that they were entering the arenas where the principle of equality most urgently need to be planted and nurtured. The easier routes which they could have taken would have done little or nothing to bring changes to the big picture. I suppose those women who blazed the first trails had a weltanschaung far more vast than I and most everyone else. Eu
(made a few grammatical & spelling corrections)
Post Edited (2006-12-19 23:22)
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-12-19 21:21
Good thread ... has really made me consider purchasing their CDs in future (as much as I adore their sound). When they performed in Sydney I attended their two programs (I know, sold out to the glitz and glamour of the occasion).
There were a handful of female players, maybe 4 or 5 and they stood out like sore thumbs.
Fortunately - Australia is a small country (population wise) but we've had female concert masters of our orchestras (Tasmanian and Melbourne [which still has]) and the proportion of male to female is probably 50/50 in most cases.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2006-12-19 21:51
I will write to PBS and complain about this tradition. Time to stop that!
"On New Year’s Day, GREAT PERFORMANCES continues a time-honored holiday tradition with “From Vienna: The New Years Celebration 2007,” returning to the stately splendor of Vienna’s Musikverein for its 23rd annual New Year’s Day celebration with the Vienna Philharmonic and host Walter Cronkite. Zubin Mehta will lead the renowned orchestra in a selection of buoyant Strauss Family waltzes, including the “Dynamiden” by Joseph Strauss and the timeless favorite, the “Blue Danube,” by his brother, Johann. Also featured are festive ballets danced by the Vienna State Opera Ballet, with choreography by Christian Tichy and costumes by Christof Cremer. The festivities air Monday, January 1, 2007, 2:30-4:00 p.m. and 9:00-10:30 p.m. ET on PBS."
So much for pledge week!
http://www.pbs.org/aboutpbs/news/20061106_HolidayLineUp.html
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-19 22:03
Oh, that New Year Concerto.
It was interesting the first three or so times. Now I find it just boring. Same repertoire, same composers, same pictures. (The flowers are presumable fresh, however).
Groundhog day for musicians.
--
Ben
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-12-19 22:14
Often featured as background eye candy during the NewYears in Vienna concert are the Lippezaner Stallions (no Geldings or Mares mind you) of the Spanish Riding School.
Guess what. despite Olympic medals having often been won in dressage by females, this institution has riders who are....Boyz.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-20 10:29
Old Geezer asked "How many westeners are in the symphonies of Japan and China?"
- A friend of mine reciently auditioned for an orchestra in Japan a month ago and got in. He is a blonde haired white man. There is also another clarinetist in an orchestra in Osaka (or it might be Kobe) that started a few years ago. Generally, there is one non-Japanese for every few orchestras. That could be viewed as racism except if you go to the audition where you can almost never find a non-Japanese person. In proportion to those audition, the amount of whites in Japanese orchestras is quite high.
David read this sentence again and if you still can't understand why one world class orchestra is too much for us then you are beyond the point of no return in your backward way of thinking. “If racism and sexism is good enough for a prestigious organization like the VPO then it’s good enough for me, too.”
Clearly if you had ever experienced racism you would not be talking like you have been.
Peace,
-S
Post Edited (2009-01-05 13:58)
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Author: bawa
Date: 2006-12-20 16:11
Mark, ginny, skygardners and others,
Your replies have expressed very well all the reasons why it is so so wrong in so many ways.
And the above post answers the questions about Japanese orchestras. As for China, I would like to know how many, if any, foreigners audition or want to live in China: then we can start a separate post about that.
The protest about the New Year Contest has given me an idea..it is also broadcast on Spanish TV every year (don't watch it for the same reasons as tictactux), but I am going to write about this to them and some organizations to see if can get enough protest organized to get rid of it, or at least make it an issue.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2006-12-21 02:49
I will say right off the bat the Vienna PHil has got to change...the Berlin Phil has changed and they have(Vienna) have to follow suit....this has to be one of the great human rights infringements of our times. I am saddened by this incredible atrocity and infraction against talented musicians...I find myself in total disgust against this treatment...
David Dow
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-12-21 12:38
Bizarre that Vienna still clings to a tradition of anti-feminist bigotry. Don't these people listen to other orchestras? Quite a contrast with the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, for instance. The OAE's wind soloists recently gave three concerts in the USA . I attended the one at the Library of Congress on Dec. 7. Terrific concert, with Antony Pay on period clarinet and basset clarinet, leading from his first-chair seat. (My review of the concert and exchanges about it are too long for this space but available in the Klarinet e-list archives, under thread header "Mozart and Stadler at the Library of Congress." I'm not an objective pundit, since Tony's a friend, but the rest of the sold-out audience reacted as I did, with a roaring ovation.)
Vienna's loss if that orchestra limits its options by rejecting women such as clarinetist Sarah Thurlow, basset hornist Jane Booth and bassoonist Sally Jackson, who toured with the OAE. For Mozart's Gran Partitta, the OAE winds added a string double-bass player, Chi-Chi Nwanoku, MBE. Apparently no stodgy old Vienna-style music teacher ever managed to persuade her that small, female, non-white people don't play classical bass. Although it's asking a lot to expect women to pioneer where they know they're not welcome (yet), I hope female applicants of the caliber of the OAE soloists will keep putting the spotlight and the pressure on those fossils in Vienna until they pull their heads out of their basses and blink in the daylight.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Lobo
Date: 2006-12-22 21:43
Do you people want to have an effect on this situation? I plan to do the following and suggest that you might want to do something similar.
I will send an e-mail to the members of the two bands I play with, if not others as well, asking them to contact the local PBS station and PBS themselves to protest the airing of New Years in Vienna on Jan. 1. I will supply them with a link to the article Ken provided and the contact information for the local station and PBS.
Oh, yes, I might say something to the gentleman at the affiliated radio station who wants my company to underwrite one of their radio programs. (I'm the one who gets to decide if we do it.)
The next step would be to protest to stores carrying VH recordings.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2006-12-22 22:26
I will start emailing/asking people I know to write to PBS, of all the networks they should know better!
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2006-12-23 20:13
I think it is interesting that not one post in this lengthy thread is fron Austria. ¿Doesn't anyone there have an opinion?
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-12-24 10:54
If the Vienna State Opera ever practices discrimination of any sort when they hire people it's strictly against any European constitution and can be dealt with in the EU court of Strassbourg. To my understanding VPO to it's structure works a little bit like a mens club within the VSO orchestra, like the Freemasons and for that reason can be difficult to handle leagally since it's solidly a private association and not an official employer with only a little or none official insight.
Seen in this perspective one can understand why they keep up anciant traditions like they do. Nobody questions the Freemasons and such clubs why they don't allow women!? I don't say I defend it but I think I understand how they think.
According to members of the VPO that I've met, there is no government funding of the orchestra itself, only to the State Opera wich budget the VPO is not a part of.
Alphie
Post Edited (2006-12-24 11:03)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2006-12-24 19:08
Alphie- did you read the articles?
The State Opera do receive government funding. They also discriminate against women- not just the VPO. I can understand a "men's club", but what the State Opera are doing would infuriate me if I was an Austrian tax payer!
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The Clarinet Pages
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