 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tedm
Date: 2006-11-02 04:38
She has been practicing about 1/2 hr. a day for about a month, and I think has had 3 lessons, and about 3 or 4 band practices. Here is her playing with the book, cd and guitar accomp. coming later:
http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/meg1101.mp3
She is using an Artley 17S with 2 1/2 Rico reed. The mic (Shure SM57) was placed about 8 " away at a right angle to the clarinet, between in between where her left hand and right hand hold the thing.
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
Post Edited (2006-11-02 18:32)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-11-02 11:31
There is a lot of nice playing from a young beginner. Pretty good note accuracy and counting. The recording is also wonderful and clear.
Do you or her teacher realize that the girl isn't tounging? The beginning of each note must start with the tounge. Instead, your daughter is using a puff of air for each note that must be separated (which at this point is most of them.)
It appears that you are both clarinetists, so you may have already considered the problem...
Tounging is something that must be begun at the start, and (generally speaking) is easier for younger people to grasp now then after a year of playing.
Lot's of good stuff, and good luck to your daughter!
James Tobin
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-11-02 13:17
"a perfect embouchure"
is there such a thing?
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: tedm
Date: 2006-11-02 14:39
I'm not really a player, we're both beginning, only she takes lessons and I just learn from her and the books.
Thanks to this board, I did ask her to talk to her teacher earlier this ween about tonguing, and also the 2 1/2 reeds vs 2, but I haven't had a chance to talk with the teacher in person yet.
I have noticed that she isn't tonguing, and she knows she needs to, so maybe we'll work on that before her next lesson. The tune that we can both play, and practice tonguing I think is "hot cross buns", during those quarter notes.
I've also noticed that after maybe 1/2 hr or so she starts puffing like a chipmunk and has to be remined to blow properly or I've asked to to just take a break, again I wonder if she should be on 2 1/2 reeds instead of 2.
She hasn't had any lessons on "embrochure" other than what we've readin the beginning books. The teacher has helped her to reduce the squeaks by positioning her mouth differently and moving the ligature more towards the center of the reed than lower part of the reed.
Thanks for all the great comments here.
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-11-02 18:40
I and others could make many comments on embouchure. Since I can't see what your daughter is doing, I'll leave that to your teacher.
As far as tounging goes, there are many steps that can be successfull in the beginning.
Have her say "dee dee dee dee". Point out that the tip of her tounge touches the back of her teeth or the roof of her mouth. Say "dee...dee..." to make sure she realizes this.
Then point out that with the clarinet in her mouth, her tounge will instead touch the reed.
YES, her tounge will be tickled by touching the reed. Some students find this uncomforable, but it is proof that the right thing is happening. The discomfort dissappears within a week or so.
It can be as simple as thinking "dee dee dee" as you play. This is one way to begin a required technique.
As far as the cheeks go, that could be either lack of focus or fatigue. Both can be solved by putting the instrument down for a while as you suggest. 2.5 reeds would require better directed air which would (probably) cause fatigue more quickly. (However, I rarely start a student on 2's)
Good luck!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: tedm
Date: 2006-11-02 23:14
Thanks Tobin,
This is extremely helpful. We will practice the "dee dees" tonight.
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: Ben
Date: 2006-11-03 00:01
A great book worth investing in is Tom Ridenour's 'Educator's guide to the clarinet'.
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/EducatorsGuide.html
It is a great resource for understand things like tonguing, breathing, emboucure, etc.
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Author: tedm
Date: 2006-11-04 18:42
here's an update, with some attempting to use her tongue per some of the above instructions:
http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/meg1104.mp3
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2006-11-04 21:40
Definitely an improvement, but she is still "huffing" rather than pushing air through the instrument. The tounging is better, but needs to be a little more definite. you can tell she is struggling to stick to her old learned ways, but tounging is a tottally different method to teach.
Be more aggressive in the notes. musicians tend to like a "forward" moving sound.
by the way, how do you record into a .mp3 file using a shure sm57 setup? i'm interested in doing something like that. i have a computer mike, which serves its purpose. nuff said on that
try going to a community band and learning from the muscians there. they have plenty of good advice.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: tedm
Date: 2006-11-05 03:17
Hi Thanks for all the comments,
I do realize that there is still work to be done on the tonguing, and again a lesson and discussion with the private teacher will happen this Monday.
The recording is very simple, SM57 mic is on a boom about 10" at a right angle to in-between her left and right hands play, going into an inexpensive 2 channel ~$50 behringer preamp/mixer with sends/inserts with some guitar pedal reverb (which in the future I'll turn down or off), then straight into a little iRiver ifp-895 mp3 recorder/player, which I then pop onto a pc through the USB port, and ftp to some web space I have.
Previously, and in another studio I run, I use compressors, and addl. mics and PC multitrack recording sw (Cubase), but for this, since we're not going to make a CD or DVD-Audio (we did with some of her recorder playing), it's just quick and dirty, pretty much as simple as a podcast or as simple as you can really get on the tracking of a single channel.
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: D
Date: 2006-11-05 15:54
I just managed to get that to work.
Rather respectable sound for such a newbie player, tell her well done.
However, breathing between every note! Cos that is what it sounds like at the moment, even though she probably isn't because of the speed.
What about introducing the concept of slurs on a long run of notes, so she hears a run of notes together. The long descant gloria from 'Deck the halls' comes to mind (been arranging it for my beginner recorders today, that's probably why) Although, there is a guy I sit next to in community band who loves slurs and hates to break up a nice slur for the sake of the composers wishes. It would be a shame if she ended up like him!
Massive improvement since first posting as well, much more controlled.
Post Edited (2006-11-05 15:57)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-11-08 04:54
The breath between each note is the dead give away that she is not tonguing (along with the fact that it can be heard).
Instead she (as can happen) is using one breath of air for each note.
Ultimately the concept that all notes are played in one breath (within reason) with the tongue interrupting gently to give definition is what is required.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: tedm
Date: 2006-11-08 05:19
Well I see 2 issues here then, as we practice together, we are able to play a min of 4 quarter notes with a single breath, and definitely a whole note measure on one breath, but I don't know if that type of playing came out in the recording.
In the above case, we can certainly practice that together.
On tonguing, she knows what it is, but when practicing the short two line exercies in the red "excellence" book, she tends to just concentrate on the notes and not technique.
So unless I'm missing something, is it not 2 issues here, one of playing multiple notes per breath, and the 2nd of tonguing to stop (in guitar playing we would call it "mute") short notes, and save breath?
Tobin wrote:
> The breath between each note is the dead give away that she is
> not tonguing (along with the fact that it can be heard).
>
> Instead she (as can happen) is using one breath of air for each
> note.
>
> Ultimately the concept that all notes are played in one breath
> (within reason) with the tongue interrupting gently to give
> definition is what is required.
>
> James
>
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: D
Date: 2006-11-08 06:23
The tongue should start and stop all notes unless you are putting in a slur or a special effect.
A phrase should be played in one breath (where musically sensible and physically reasonable) and this will probably contain lots of notes. Think of singing the music to see where the musical sense of it comes. Try 'Jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way'. That phrase should be one breath, and as it is quite quick it should be easily possible with practice. Taking lots of breaths here would make you hyperventilate and also prevent you playing up to speed.
The way I have found helps is to think of it like, create playing pressure in your mouth with only your tongue on the reed stopping a noise coming out. To make noise remove the tongue from the reed. Put it back on to stop the noise. that makes the distinction between notes. At all times retain the pressure. Only drop the pressure to breath. This is how to get over that grunting sound that sometimes happens as well. And once you get the hang of it, makes playing a lot less effort than trying to create playing pressure for every note. You'll give yourself a sore throat that way.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-11-08 13:49
I disagree that the tongue starts and stops all notes, but I don't disagree that the method described above could work.
Karl Leister insisted that any cantabile passage should begin without the tongue.
Bringing him into this is ranging rather far afield.
Tedm: At this point in your daughter's education, the tongue doesn't stop notes. It starts them.
There is no issue with playing multiple notes in one breath if she can play a whole note.
The issue is that your daughter is taking one breath after each note to differentiate the quarter notes. Instead, she should blow through the notes and differentiate them by a quick and gentle stroke of the tounge (Deeeeedeeeedeeeedeeee): "d" being the stroke of the tounge, and "eeeeee" being constant air into the instrument.
If you say the above parenthetic statement out loud, you will have what your daughter should play.
In response to the second sound file, I emailed Tedm a method to teach her how to tounge. I should have posted it here so that others could contribute/criticize my suggestions. I unfortunately don't have time to rewrite it.
Tedm, if you still have it, would you post it?
Once again, if your daughter can talk she can tongue, and it is only a matter of time.
James Tobin
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: tedm
Date: 2006-11-08 15:02
Hi James, Mr. D., and all:
[edit - below is post from an email James Tobin sent, all clearances from James and mods have been provided for so it's below my paragraphs, thanks James, and Mods]
I will point out what I think is going on:
a) My daughter needs to start tonguing instead of using 1 breath per note, and this may be related to her using a 2 1/2 reed (I use a 2 and get winded).
b) I think we all agree that the tongue is used to separate notes, though not all agreement is that it is the only method.
I think that's all my daughter and I need to work on for now (these next couple of weeks). The reason I thought the tonguing was necessary to stop notes is the following -- once I, as a beginner, and I'm assuming my daughter has this issue as well, get a good tone going, no squeaks, toneful sound coming, we're reluctant to move mouth position or anything that might create a squeak or go in/out of tune other than moving fingers. The thing that necessitates tonguing, is while we sustain that toneful (working) sound out of the instrument, and are playing different quarter notes of say the same note for a measure like in say 'hot cross buns', the only way to not have a note linger past a quarter note, is to tongue to stop the first note so the 2nd note comes out crisp.
I realize that say pianists have little control once they play a note, it and it's harmonics just ring, but when a guitarist is playing 16th notes, he must mute certain strings unless specifically wanting those overtones going on while playing new notes.
Well to summarize, I think of tonguing as a separator between notes. Thanks all for these great tips.
*** begin of James email:
My name is James Tobin, and I responded earlier to your post of your
daughter's playing.
I just listened to the recent recording. Again, there are many good things
about her playing. Her fingers are accurate. She has a full sound and is
obviously using a good amount of air.
Sounds as if she's playing from the red Standards of Excellence book. (I
could be wrong...these beginning books have all the same tunes anyway.)
There is a lot of reverb on this recording, and it is hard to tell if she is
tounging in some places. I could be wrong, but I would generally say that
she is not truly successfull yet.
There is a great deal of separation between all notes that are not slurred.
This would among other things leads me to believe that she hasn't grasped
the concept yet.
Here are some explanations for YOU. The touch of the tounge on the reed is
just a BRIEF interruption of the sound. There should be no separation
between many of these tounged notes...except for the quick (and
comparatively) infintissimal touch of the tounge.
As you watch her tounge, if you see repeated motion in her neck, cheeks, and
shoulders for each note then she is almost assuredly not tounging.
For HER:
Here is another way to attack the situation. Have your daughter put her
toungue on the reed without blowing...just to discover where the reed is.
Have her feel around with THE TIP of her tounge and find the edges, the tip,
just to explore. (When tounging, we tounge just below the tip of the
reed...one can't feel the tip edge).
Now have her play a long held note and touch the reed WHILE she is blowing.
If she is blowing the entire time there will be no way to missinterpret
whether or not she has been successfull. The sound will change for the
duration of time she touches the reed. (Often, the student's tounge touches
the reed and is literally THROWN OFF because the reed is vibrating so
fully.)
It is possible to touch the reed with the tip of the tounge while blowing
and not stop the note! Instead you get a muted, subdued sound.
Good luck!
James Tobin
*** end of James email post
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
Post Edited (2006-11-09 04:36)
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Author: tedm
Date: 2006-11-09 04:07
Hi Mark C, and GBK, I apologize for breaking any rules. I did have Jame's permission and hoped to save him some typing, but I'll wait until he clears it all with you folks, and that you folks are OK before reposting it. Thanks.
Here is an excerpt from my daughters practice tonight:
http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/clarinet5.mp3
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: tedm
Date: 2006-11-11 04:35
Here's an update, my daughter is now aware that she's not tonguing, so this is our first step to start with the tips we have. I think we're coming up to about 2 months now, and I think she's doing great, she's enjoying it as well, clarinet is a Buffet B12 Crampon, but her same mouthpiece and 2 1/2 Rico reed that she used from the Artley's.
BTW, the tight new Yamaha 4C mouthpiece that is tight in both Artley's is OK (still a tad tight) in the Buffet B12. So apparently the Artley 17S barrels are just a tad small for Yamaha mouthpieces.
http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/clarinet6.mp3
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2006-11-11 20:38
tedm,
ive been following this thread and just want to commend you on your involvement in your daughers clarinet playing.
i find your posts very interesting and they make me smile.
brings back memories
how old is your daughter?
keep us posted....
jan
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Author: nes
Date: 2006-11-11 22:15
she is an amazing beginner, and she caught on totounging extremely fast. You need to be so so proud of your daughter
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Author: tedm
Date: 2006-11-12 01:38
Thanks very much Jan, Nes and all. She is 9 (almost 10), and we're very proud of her. Our son who's too young for band by a few years is also trying to keep up with my daughter so my daughter is teaching us as well as learning herself! We learned to strum guitars together, a little keyboards, and played beginning recorder together, so it's kind of fun that we'll all be playing clarinets together. I can play the easy duets in the red Excellence book, and will have to practice those pieces with piano parts.
It will be a challenge to keep my son interested as he has a few more years to band at school, but we'll try to keep him interested at home.
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: neil.clarinet
Date: 2006-11-12 20:45
Thanks for sharing that with us. Nice playing for a relatively young child. Indeed it is paramount to get tonguing correct right from the start. I teach this as soon as people have found the correct embouchure and are playing the first note (usually E). If spotted early on it can be sorted without much trouble. I am glad she is finding it worthwhile, and wish her and your son every success.
Post Edited (2006-11-12 21:00)
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Author: tedm
Date: 2006-11-18 04:41
here's an update this week:
http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/clarinet7.mp3
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-11-18 12:13
I only had to listen to two notes: Congratulations! Your combined hard work has paid off!
James Tobin
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: tedm
Date: 2006-11-18 14:08
Many thanks to you James, and all the others here who provided great advice.
We just got a disney clarinet book, and I'm hoping there will be some tunes easy enough for us to get through (was ordered online, so I couldn't check the notes).
I hope this won't be too derailing from the red Excellence book
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2006-11-19 22:44
HI TEDM
i just popped in to see if there were any updates and wa la..
cant wait to hear some disney songs. i would like to note something about that. make sure she is playing the actual rhythms written. sometimes when we play a song we know, we play what we know not whats on the page. know what i mean?
im curious about some things
1. how often does she practice?
2. how long does she practice?
3. how often does she go for a private lesson
4. how long is the lesson
i would also like to reccomend the Rubank beginner book. It can be boring for a child, but it has some excellent little exercises in it.
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Author: tedm
Date: 2006-12-13 04:38
Hi,
Here's a quick update, as the school quarter is coming to an end. In addition to the red bruce pearson standards of Excellence book, the band teacher has provided some xmas song sheets.
I think my daughter is progressing slower than at the beginning of the year, but with our encouragement, and playing along with her, she usually enjoyes practicing several hours a week or more.
Thanks again all for the tips and encouragement.
http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/clar1212.mp3
janlynn wrote:
> anxiously awaiting to hear the progress
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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The Clarinet Pages
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