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 Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: joeyscl 
Date:   2006-12-08 09:09

Who (dead or alive) has the fastest tonguing? How fast? For Single?
For Double?
For Triple?
Flutter? or...?
I know Robert Spring can single tongue pretty darn fast...

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: Tobin 
Date:   2006-12-08 11:54

My high school clarinet teacher was Louie Greenspan, he had been principal of the Marine band for some time.

Louie was 72 when I studied with him, he could still easily single tounge sixteenth notes between 150-160 BPM.

He lent me a recording of a friend of his, a saxophonist, Kenny Daus(?) who appeared to tounging near 200, but perhaps I'm just missremebering what I heard.

The fastest I have heard recently would be Kari Kriuku (sp), but I didn't take the time to discover just how fast we was...

James

Gnothi Seauton

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2006-12-08 13:03

So if my math is correct, sixteenths at 160bpm give 640 sixteenths per minute, right? That's over 10Hz. Jeez, that's fast.

--
Ben

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: clarnibass 
Date:   2006-12-08 14:13

When I saw Robert Spring he did 16ths with 200bpm. He did one 8th note and two 16ths repeatedly with 240bpm. It was so fast that you could barely hear the staccato anymore, it was almost like a long note.

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: Ken Shaw 2017
Date:   2006-12-08 14:50

I saw a Robert Spring lecture-demo where he single tongued sixteenths past the top metronome speed of 240.

Stanley Drucker is infinitely fast. Listen to his cadenza in the Bartok Contrasts and his Nielsen and Corgliano Concertos.

Charles Neidich can tongue anything he can slur -- for example, the sextuplets at the end of Weber # 2.

Ditto Al Gallodoro.

Ken Shaw

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: EEBaum 
Date:   2006-12-08 17:17

Depends on how long the tonguing has to continue for...

-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: LarryBocaner 2017
Date:   2006-12-08 18:37

James Tobin wrote: "He lent me a recording of a friend of his, a saxophonist, Kenny Daus(?) who appeared to tonguing near 200, but perhaps I'm just misremembering what I heard."

Kenneth "Kenny" Douse was featured saxophone soloist with the Marine Band until his retirement in the 1950's. Upon his retirement he joined the National Symphony Orchestra as a member of the violin section; he also doubled on saxophone where the repertoire required it. It was my good fortune (as bass clarinetist) to sit right next to him; I was blown away by his virtuosity on both instruments. He used to boast that the reed he was playing in alto sax was the same he used when he retired from the Marine Band years earlier. His fast tounguing ability was astonishing -- truly the equal of a Robert Spring or Charles Neidich (or Ted Hegvik on sax).

Here is a link to an example of his playing:http://www.marineband.usmc.mil/audio_resources/discography/bi_disc3.htm



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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: William 
Date:   2006-12-08 22:16

Clickable version for US Marine Band site:

http://www.marineband.usmc.mil/audio_resources/discography/bi_disc3.htm

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: Caco185 
Date:   2006-12-09 04:51

Paul Meyer tongues pretty damn fast.

Dale Huggard
Clarinet Performance Major, Michigan
Buffet R-13 - Silver plated
Genussa Excellente
Spriggs Floating Rail Ligature
Vandoren V12 #4

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: joeyscl 
Date:   2006-12-09 08:31

"I saw a Robert Spring lecture-demo where he single tongued sixteenths past the top metronome speed of 240.

Stanley Drucker is infinitely fast. Listen to his cadenza in the Bartok Contrasts and his Nielsen and Corgliano Concertos.

Charles Neidich can tongue anything he can slur -- for example, the sextuplets at the end of Weber # 2.

Ditto Al Gallodoro.

Ken Shaw"


But whos the fastest???

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: Ken Shaw 2017
Date:   2006-12-09 13:29

They can all go faster than it's possible to hear. There's no such thing as "more infinite." Name any of them and you won't be wrong.

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: rgames 
Date:   2006-12-09 18:36

Anybody have the inside scoop on their secrets? Like many, articulation is the bane of my existence as a clarinetist...

rgames

____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: EEBaum 
Date:   2006-12-09 20:33

Playing toward the next notes rather than sitting on the note you're on, grouping grouping grouping, coordinating tongue/fingers with fingers in charge.

Your tongue is probably plenty fast already, it's just not properly aligned with the time and the fingers.

-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: Detru Cofidin 
Date:   2006-12-09 21:01

there is no limit to how fast one can tongue.

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: GBK 
Date:   2006-12-09 21:23

Detru Cofidin wrote:

> there is no limit to how fast one can tongue.



As for single tongiuing, there is a limit.

Everyone has an inherent finite point of progress. Eventually you will "hit the wall" and not be able to go any faster, no matter how hard and how long you work at it.


When you reach that point, you then must dedicate yourself to sustain that final speed by constant reinforcement...GBK

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: Chris22311 
Date:   2006-12-09 23:57

I've had two teachers (both in big five orchestras) that said they would kill for a tongue like mine...

My advice for tonguing is to aim for articulation that first has quality. Something more of a ping pong sound works for me for short articulation, think of a woodpecker! As far as speed goes, visualizing the way your tongue moves while "spitting spit balls" (or whatever visual device works for you) is a great way to understanding the physical movement. Aim for effortlessly light articulation when tonguing something fast! To coordinate your fingers and tongue together, let your fingers lead your tongue (according to yehuda gilad). Finding the right tonguing excercises are essential when learning excerpts such as Mendelssohn Scherzo.

Chris

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: Detru Cofidin 
Date:   2006-12-10 04:25

What's wrong with being under the impression that there is no limit to how fast one can tongue? It won't stop somebody from trying (and probably getting much farther than most people who keep telling themselves that there is a limit).

Nicholas Arend

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: Chris22311 
Date:   2006-12-10 15:43

I agree w/ Detru. Someone posted stating the limits of how fast the tongue can move. While you CAN spend time discussing this issue, it only provides a mental block for the majority of clarinet players! Why think how fast you can tongue when you can spend more time thinking HOW to tongue. A big difference between amateurs and professionals are their capabilities to figure out problems.

Chris

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: Douse 
Date:   2018-08-19 07:19

Hi, Kenneth Douse did actually perform the Double and Tripple tonguing technique during his performances, also published his book on how to. After listening to trumpeters, he was convinced that he could also use and develop that technique for the saxophone and clarinet, and most assuredly did so to perfection. As he, Grandpop Douse told me as he was laughing, which of course he was so correct..."one will sound like a squeaking goose when starting."

marlene.netherton@yahoo.com

Post Edited (2018-08-19 07:21)

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2018-08-19 09:09

For speed, I'd throw my hat in with lateral tonguing.

Faster than Frost.

http://www.MyTempoMusic.com

http://www.ClarinetLessonOnline.com


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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: zhangray4 
Date:   2018-08-20 05:17

just some of my favorites:

Robert Spring's Warmup: https://youtu.be/G8Z1y7E7_04 (start at around 5:55)
Charles Neidich playing Weber 2 (second time the sextuplets occur, around 5:19): https://youtu.be/pm-Vq820JVc
Alexey Gorokholinsky playing Paganini 5 (continuous fast tonguing): https://youtu.be/qb3ktqyDuKU
Martin Frost playing Klezmer Dances: https://youtu.be/o7OaQMiJc3o

-- Ray Zhang

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: Philip Caron 
Date:   2018-08-20 06:46

Robert Spring's warmup video is outstanding and amazing. However, his fast single tonguing, at least in that video, is confined to the Langenus etude's pattern of one 16th plus two 32nds. He does not demonstrate fast single tonguing of longer homogenous groups. His tongued scales coming later are double and triple tongued.

I think the longer tongued sequences in the examples shangray4 has provided are all multiple tongued. It's harder, perhaps, to single tongue longer groups, especially much longer ones. Several excellent recordings of the Nielsen concerto might provide examples, such as Stanley Drucker's:

https://youtu.be/cVYoKG66Hm4?t=446

That's about 72 bpm (32nds), and I don't know if it's single-tongued, but it sounds like it to my ears.

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: Bob Bernardo 
Date:   2018-08-24 10:29

Julian Bliss is up there. Is he the fastest? Not sure, but he surely can handle any parts.


Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces


Yamaha Artist 2015




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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2018-08-27 20:12

It's me - it's faster than anyone I know/nor have heard.

Easily run around Drucker speed wise.


Lateral tonguing - no syllable used.

For regular standard single tongue I'd say it's Ricardo Morales.

http://www.MyTempoMusic.com

http://www.ClarinetLessonOnline.com


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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2018-08-27 20:15

https://www.facebook.com/clarinetist/videos/10212747361531691/


Studied in Toronto the day after Bob Spring was there (we are Co-Faculty in Spain at a Clarinet Festival)

With all of those wires cemented to my tongue inside, it was really hard to do anything.

http://www.MyTempoMusic.com

http://www.ClarinetLessonOnline.com


Post Edited (2018-08-27 20:15)

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: Ed 
Date:   2018-08-28 03:10

A friend who studied with the great Stanley Hasty told me that Hasty talked about the "birth tonguing rate". The idea is that while each player can work to maximize what they can do, some players are naturally able to tongue faster than others and that each person has their own limits.

I have known players who could tongue rapid fire and when I asked what they did to work on tonguing, they told me 'nothing, I've always been able to tongue fast"

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: Ken Lagace 
Date:   2018-08-28 03:52

Pretty impressive David B, but can you use the tonguing in a scale that fast? Or is it only useful on repeated notes? And can you also tongue all the speeds slower or does it only work at one speed? Just curious - I have never heard any one tongue like that except by flutter tongue.

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: seabreeze 
Date:   2018-08-28 04:31

David,

Can you teach that technique to your students? If so, what is the range of speed that you have heard from them using the lateral tonguing method? (I assume that even using that technique some players will be slower or faster than others). Do you know of any instruction materials that have been written describing the technique in a way that most players could learn and practice it?

It would be nice if you posted the except here (as you did on the your clarinet web blog recently) of Ricardo Morales playing some remarkably fast single tongued passages from the Nielsen in 1992 when he was just 19 years old.



Post Edited (2018-08-28 05:08)

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 Re: Fastest tonguing possible?
Author: Philip Caron 
Date:   2018-08-28 05:03

I believe this report is on the study which David participated in.

http://clarinet.org/2017/10/06/articulation-types-for-clarinet-kornel-wolak/

Lots of interesting stuff here; lateral is discussed and depicted about 3/4 of the way down. If you can make it happen and control it, it seems to have fewer drawbacks compared to other multi-tongue techniques.

Question. When should a student start working on multi-tonguing? How fast should they be able to single-tongue? Well, two questions but sorta one.

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