 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: smross
Date: 2006-12-10 04:10
Hello!
I know there have been a million posts (probably) here on tonguing. I have sought quite a bit of help and still struggle after working very diligently on the problem (one of my biggest) for some time. For starters, in my warm-up, I play the Langenus 11 (?) three times at three different speeds...90, 110, and 125. The 125 speed is not really happening all the way through. I can do chunks, but not more than one or two phrases at a time.
As for just application in actual literature, I struggle even tonguing the passages in the first movement of the Mozart Concerto at mm. 69 and 73 at quarter = 118 or so (slur 2, tongue 6). This is unusual for a senior clarinet performance major, yes? I struggle with air leaks specifically when articulation is involved (fast articulation, that is). Also, for some reason...when playing the Mozart example measures, leaning on the first note of the group out of those eight notes seems to help. But I can't figure out why.
What articulation I can do IS clean. I can tongue and start notes cleanly in any register. My main issue is speed and then coordination secondly. HELP! I work on this problem every single time I pick up my horn. Am I working incorrectly, or am I destined to be stuck with a horrible tongue as long as I continue to play the clarinet? Any info you could pass along I would probably appreciate. Thanks-
Sam
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Author: smross
Date: 2006-12-10 04:42
Also, I forgot to mention that sometimes (or maybe more often than I realize) my sound spreads the the chalumeau register when tonguing rapidly.
My teacher and I have worked on this problem (obviously), and he even said he didn't know what I was doing [wrong], and that he didn't know what to do to help me. ACK!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-10 07:11
Can you articulate single notes (eg. a string of Gs or Cs, etc.) at the speeds you mentioned? If you can't then it sounds like you are holding a lot of tension.
Q- are you trying for that super dry staccato style? Can you do any legatto articulations at that speed?
What part of your tongue are you using?
-S
ps. there are other posts on this subject. have a coffee and search through them.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-12-10 07:33
Leaning on the first none of the grouping will only go so far. Really, you should lean TOWARD the first note of the NEXT grouping.
It could also be a problem of alignment. You could very well be perfectly capable of tonguing plenty fast. Quite possibly, you're prepping your tongue for a whole lot of notes and prepping your fingers for a whole lot of notes. However, you may just fire them both off and hope for the best, not making all that much of an effort to ensure that they're properly aligned with each other.
It's possible that, while your tongue is starting and stopping with rhythmic accuracy, your fingers aren't matching. This leads to pitches happening at times you don't expect, which throws the rhythmic and melodic stability and, given the ensuing panic, slows the tonguing.
In order to have them properly aligned, the *fingers* should be in charge. Make sure you tongue to match your fingers, and the little "My tongue isn't working properly" blips should go away.
In order to get your FINGERS working properly, make sure that you're fingering toward what's coming up, rather than where you already are. If your fingers aren't prepared for where you're going, you can't possibly expect your tongue to meet them there.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-12-10 13:21
Alex (eebaum) wrote:
"It's possible that, while your tongue is starting and stopping with rhythmic accuracy, your fingers aren't matching. This leads to pitches happening at times you don't expect, which throws the rhythmic and melodic stability and, given the ensuing panic, slows the tonguing."
Alex, that is the very first thing that popped into my mind when I read the original message in this post -- and you said it very well. Your line about just firing them off and hoping for the best really hit home with me! Your suggestion to conceptualize the note groupings by where they are going, rather than where they "are", is also spot on.
My teacher and I recently had this same discussion (about the fingerings vis-a-vis the tongue). I have *very* fast fingers, and I can tongue like a house on fire, but I still wasn't getting the consistent velocity I wanted in passage work. She pointed to my hand position and intentionality of the finger movement (the dreaded "flying fingers" syndrome) as underlying my problem -- and she was right.
And while it wasn't much fun to dog out the fast passages slowly and carefully, being aware of every finger movement and the angle of my hands and wrists, the end result is much, much more consistent than what I was getting when I was just thoughtlessly ripping them off. My speed, accuracy, AND the musicality of my playing has improved markedly.
Great advice!
Susan
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2006-12-10 13:37
i had/have a problem with tonguing too. it has gotten better only becuz i discovered some things on my own thruout the years. yes - unfortunately - it took me years to figure out and/or develop. and now that i KNOW - im working on it.
#1. while i thought i was using the tip of my tongue - i wasnt. especially when you play fast, its not something you think about. so when i start slowing down - i have to remind myself of that.
#2. looking ahead. this helps me the most. as someone suggested above, if you can look to the next grouping of notes before you get to them, your tongue/hand coordination will improve. again, im still working on this.
reminding myself of both those things has helped me improve. i still have a long way to go.
you said your teacher said he didnt know how to help you...did he suggest something and it didnt work, or he just didnt know what to tell you?
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Author: smross
Date: 2006-12-11 04:04
I can tongue strings of notes that are the same (like 8 G's, for example) with more ease than tonguing a scale at the same speed. But who can't?
I know I'm definitely not anchor-tonguing; I have tested it with a non-toxic marker and I do tongue with the tip (of course not exact, but very close). And the grouping philosophy helps me to an extent, but it doesn't really lend speed, just better coordination. I think I can stay sane working on finger-tongue coordination. It's really just the SPEED issue that drives me mad. This Langenus exercise I cite is full of this 1 eighth, 2 sixteenth rhythm. The two sixteenths stay on the same note in the first half of the exercise, and change in the 2nd half. I struggle with both. Even at quarter = 125. This just seems abnormally slow to me.
So essentially, fast staccato seems easier than fast legato at this point.
My teacher worked with me on an exercise usually used for making a clean staccato, and then pretty much gave up and said he didn't know what to do/tell me. I Just feel like I've been working on this for so long with such slow progress (I will say there's been progress...it's just VERY VERY subtle) that I'm about to crack. Thanks for all the tips...any more help? 
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-11 09:35
Ross-
"I can tongue strings of notes that are the same (like 8 G's, for example) with more ease than tonguing a scale at the same speed. But who can't?"
You can do it with "more ease", but can you do it really well?
-With all of us there is a point where we can no longer increase speed. And I am asking if your tongue has the ability to move at the speeds you desire. It is not a pointless question. If you cannot articulate on single notes at the speeds you desire then, logically, you will not be able to do it on different notes either. Logic is a good thing.
As you have said, it seems you have been doing a cetain etude for a very long time and you have not been able to succeed. It is likely that you have had this problem for so long and been practicing this one etude for so long that you have engrained these mistakes when you see THAT page.
I have a few pieces from a few years ago that I still cannot play- I can play things harder, but I have "learned" thoes pages with the mistakes. It is very hard to "unlearn" a mistake.
I think you should continue to work on articulation, but you should put this particular eutde on the shelf for a while. It is causing you stress and is likely a continuing source of self-doubt whenever you see it.
Other questions-
Can you play the Mozart and/or this etude at the tempo you desire under one big slur??
What is your mouthpiece and reed?? I suspect you are using something that is a bit too hard (also, too soft would create a problem, but you are in college so I'll bet it's too hard).
-Sky
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-12-11 13:16
<So essentially, fast staccato seems easier than fast legato at this point.>
This fact takes me back to the post from Ken Shaw (above), and prompts me to ask, how are you using your air?
Being happy with one's staccato and unhappy with one's legato is, for me, virtually diagnostic of an air use problem.
There is this concept (which you already may have heard, but think about it again, OK?) of playing "on the air" versus playing "with the air". In the extreme, playing "with the air" would be like a beginner who doesn't know how to tongue just huffing out the tone. Playing "on the air" means that there is consistent, uninterrupted air flowing into the instrument, and the tongue is used to stop and start the tone.
Now, I'm sure you are not just huffing out the tones, but some of us have discovered that we were actually employing a rather up-town version of that error, and then wondering why our legato wasn't fluid. There was a time a year or so ago when I was much happier playing fast staccato than *any* sort of legato, and upon analysis, I discovered that I was doing exactly what Ken mentions: adding a puff of air at each tongue stroke.
Just something else to think about.
Susan
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Author: Dee
Date: 2006-12-12 22:40
Another common problem that slows tonguing way down is moving the jaw along with the tongue. Even a slight, nearly imperceptible movement of the jaw causes a major slowdown.
I find that focusing on fingers and their accuracy instead of the tongue is the biggest help in fast passages even though I have fast fingers. The real key is getting them properly synchronized. The subconscious may be slowing your fingers down in the mistaken believe that the tongue is too slow. So focusing on the fingers instead of the tongue can start to overcomve that.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-12-13 03:31
Sam said:
"I know I'm definitely not anchor-tonguing; I have tested it with a non-toxic marker and I do tongue with the tip (of course not exact, but very close)."
I have never heard of this...how do you do it??????
Curious minds...
Synchronizing the fingers with the tongue is most efficiently accomplished using the "Bonade" articulation (aka "fingers ahead") practice technique, IMO.
Katrina
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Author: smross
Date: 2006-12-14 17:05
Katrina,
The marker trick I do is as follows. I take a crayola (non-toxic) marker of a color like blue or green, and mark a small part right at the tip of the reed. Then, I immediately play a short passage that involves tonguing and then remove the mouthpiece from my mouth. Then you can look in the mirror and see where your tongue is hitting the tip of the reed. It's quite fascinating.
Skygardener and Ohsuzan,
My tonguing has actually improved (to my ear) over the past few days just keeping several of these tips in mind. Maybe I misspoke in saying that my staccato was better off than my legato. I have noticed I use "puffs" of air when doing staccato at a slow speed (of course there's no time for puffs at a faster tempo), but I'm not sure how to retain a very steady column of air without making the notes so short that they have no resonance or life.
I can definitely play the Mozart passages under one big slur. Fingers/technique are usually not a big problem for me. My setup is as follows: Buffet Festival, Backun "fatboy" cocobolo barrel, Greg Smith 1++ mouthpiece, with Vandoren V-12 3.5 or Rico GCE 3.5.
Thank you guys so much! I appreciate your help.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-12-14 17:51
So does your tongue change color, providing you with an opportunity to see what part of your tongue is touching the reed?
And does the marked part of the reed also change? Is there a way to apply this trick to help a student find the right part of the reed to touch??
K.
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