 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bwilber
Date: 2006-12-08 12:12
Hi Everyone. I was wondering if there is anyone that sells pre-cut key pad silencer corks and about how much does a set cost? Thanks for any help.
Bonnie Wilber
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-08 12:54
Key touchpieces vary by manufacturer, model, moon phase etc - I don't think there's a standard. I'd buy a thick cork sheet, cut it, glue it on and sand it down to dimensions.
For lighter clarinets (made of plastic instead of wood), felt works better, IMHO; I find cork to be too noisy.
--
Ben
Post Edited (2006-12-08 12:56)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-08 13:50
I prefer using felt (and ultrasuede) on all open standing keys on both wood and plastic clarinets as it's silent - cork is too noisy for these keys, but alright for use as bumper corks on closed keys. And gasket cork for linkages where natural cork would compress too much.
Even though Yamaha and Selmer USA use pre-cut corks on their clarinets, the chances are sets of pre-cut corks will be more expensive and not of the quality you'd like.
Once the corks are glued onto the keys, use a very sharp blade such as a razor blade (snap them in half so you don't risk cutting yourself) to trim them to the shape you want, and this minimises using abrasives.
But when replacing the corks on the seaker key, side Bb and Ab/Eb key, use the correct thickness to get the correct venting so you don't have to sand it down afterwards and end up with a cork that's too thick and tapers towards the front of the key touch, or ends up being a funny shape.
I'd use 0.5mm cork (or gasket cork) for the speaker key, 1mm for the Ab/Eb key and the side Eb/Bb key can have anything from 0.5 to 2mm (or more) depending on the make.
The venting of the speaker key can be adjusted by bending the key, and the Ab/Eb key venting can be adjusted by bending the stopper if it's soldered to the pillar - if it's a rod set into the body, then select the correct thickness of cork once you have the pad seated, the touchpiece set at the right height in relation to the F/C key and test various thicknesses of cork (or preferrably gasket cork as it's hard wearing) by placing the cork between the underside of the touch and the stopper and checkong the venting before glueing the cork on.
Use felt on the crow's foot as well as cork is too noisy for this application, and always use a good quality adhesive - Evo-Stik impact adhesive is the glue of choice, but B&H even used it for putting pads in with which meant they couldn't be adjusted if they didn't seat. Always use shellac for pads.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2006-12-08 15:16
There's guy on Ebay called Dave4tampa who sells lots of woodwind accessories, including Valentino key cork self-adhesive shapes for clarinet.
A set is $8. Very easy to use and you can cut them smaller or sand them if desired.
I've always been very happy buying stuff from him, not least because he doesn't try to rip me off over the p&p to Europe!
Steve
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-08 21:43
I am sure that I am not the only technician who has built up a hatred towards Valentino, for their products that migrate off keys if the instrument gets warm, or the 'cork' has some consistent sideways pressure on it.
I once spent a lot of money on Valentino products. My heart sank when I saw it and recognised what it was - the product that so often needed to replaced on instruments I serviced. What a waste of money! Maybe OK for a temporary emergency fix, but definitely substandard IMO.
Get sheet cork from Musicmedic, or another supplier, and do the job properly!
(But like Chris, I find few places on a clarinet where natural cork is an ideal material. The technological age has offered great alternatives, except for tenon corks.)
BTW, the felt that Chris writes of is not your ordinary, squishy felt from a craft shop. No comparison. It is a firm, stable, quality material, that we buy from repair gear suppliers.
Post Edited (2006-12-08 21:44)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-08 22:22
The adhesive on Valentino 'cork' isn't all that different to double-sided tape.
Though if you want some small pieces of felt, you can use the felt discs from old clarinet pads as this is hard wearing and is easy to trim to the required thickness.
Or even billiard cloth from old pool or snooker tables as this is woven, but with everything, use the sharpest scalpel or razor blades to get a nice clean edge.
One kind of felt that the clarinet finishers at Howarth like is from hats - that's the black felt you'll see used almost everywhere on S2 and S3 clarinets.
The cheap felt found on old Amati saxes is useless for any application.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2006-12-09 20:43
Wow, Gordon, thanks for your input.
I absolutely agree with you and Chris that natural cork or felt is the best answer.
I use cork because it's so easy to shape as you wish. I love felt on clarinets. So much softer and much easier to manipulate.
I particularly like cork sheets because it's so easy to cut - with a cheap hole punch set - perfect cork pads for the upper section.
However, the original poster asked:
"Hi Everyone. I was wondering if there is anyone that sells pre-cut key pad silencer corks and about how much does a set cost? Thanks for any help."
I simply answered their question 100%. i.e.. who sells them, and the cost. I'm sure the original poster will be overjoyed to have his question answered.
The only pre-cut cork shapes I know are made by Valentino.
Please advise of other sources and cost.
I did a quick search:
-- "Mark Charette (---.austin.rr.com)
Date: 2002-04-26 14:50
Gordon - what does "yuck" mean? If she means Valentino, then she's looking at a very well-respected pad, even if perhaps you don't like them."--
So, is Valentino okay, or not.
Cos a quick search suggests they're very much 'okay'.
Steve
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-09 23:02
Quote Chris: "The adhesive on Valentino 'cork' isn't all that different to double-sided tape."
I agree. And that also tends to creep around on very small surface areas.
"...but with everything, use the sharpest scalpel or razor blades to get a nice clean edge."
Another option is to use the very sharp side cutters that have no bevel on one side.
"The cheap felt found on old Amati saxes is useless for any application."
I tend to feel the same about what Selmer Paris has been using for decades on saxes!
Quote Steven: "The only pre-cut cork shapes I know are made by Valentino.
Please advise of other sources and cost."
Where I am, precut bits in a set area available from Yamaha.
Quote Mark: "Gordon - what does "yuck" mean?
"Yuck" = "detestable"
"If she means Valentino, then she's looking at a very well-respected pad, even if perhaps you don't like them."
The original "Valentino" pads were also pretty detestable, especially those with creeping self-adhesive backing. The more recent offerings tend be called "Greenback" rather than Valentino. Yes, THOSE are well respected SOME quarters. (Kraus's new offering of "Omni" pads is probably a significant improvement for pads of this type of polymer.) There are just as many technicians who don't respect them, for a variety of reasons, which I do not fully recall at present.
"Valentino okay, or not. Cos a quick search suggests they're very much 'okay'."
I thought we were talking about Valentino self-adhesive "cork" for key stops and linkages, not Greenback pads. I stand by what I originally wrote.
Perhaps some confusion arose from the wording in the original post:
"...pre-cut key pad silencer corks ..."
"Pads" are not "silencer corks".
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-09 23:25
The problem with all self-adhesives is that we expect them to adhere on the target material but not on the protective wax paper. So compromises have to be made, and the manufacturing process usually means slapping a thin film of double-side dried adhesive on the pad/felt/whatever. The glue on this film does not really penetrate the material, so it inevitably is subject to wandering under varying temperatures and conditions.
Self-adhesives are great for a quick fix, but not for lasting installations.
--
Ben
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Author: bwilber
Date: 2006-12-10 10:53
Thank you all for you help. I have been making my own key pad silencers for quite a while and I do find that sometimes they do seem kind of noisy, plus the fact that it takes so much longer to overhaul a clarinet when you have to modify all of the shapes. I didn't realize about the noise from the cork until you mentioned it, but I will keep some of the felts that I normally throw away from old pads and try it in some places.
The reason that I ask about pre-cut corks is that I have overhauled a number of Selmer clarinets and at first I was digging the old corks off and putting on new ones that I made but then I realized that these corks were really stuck on very well and very unlikely to come off like so many other clarinet corks do from other manufacturers and so I thought that if I could get some pre-cut corks that were of that high of quality like the ones that are installed on the clarinets from the Selmer factory for not that much money, that it would be worth it to me because of the time savings.
Another question is about the razor blades to cut the cork. I have tried using razor blades and I find that they dull almost with one swipe of the cork. Where do you get razor blades that stay sharp? Thanks again for all your help!
Bonnie Wilber
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-10 11:19
In my experience, today's razor blades are too thin, they indeed wear out pretty fast. Try Stanley-type knife blades instead, they're thicker and last longer.
What's working for me are those "retractable" box cutters with the segmented blades where you can break away the tip when it is worn.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-10 11:34
I only use a razor blade for trimming a single key cork (snapped in half), then chuck it away after that as it's blunt, then use the other half for doing another key cork with. I don't know of any razors that do last for more than one key cork, though a well hardened, tempered, sharpened and burnished silver steel blade (ie. a 'cut-throat' razor or an oboe reed knife) probably gives the best results, and no doubt will last for many years if well maintained. Stainless steel doesn't keep it's edge like silver steel, or even high speed steel (HSS) if you can find a blade made from this.
For Rubco/Gummi-Kork/tech cork/gasket cork I can use a slightly blunt razor or a scalpel blade to trim it with as this is easier to get a cleaner finish on if it's only 0.4mm or 0.5mm thick, but for 1mm or 2mm thick I use a fresh blade to minimise any sanding - I prefer the crisp, clean finish a sharp blade leaves.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-10 22:30
I successfully use a snap-off-blade type of knife for MANY corks before it is too blunt. Then I sharpen it on a diamond file a couple of times before going on to the next blade.
The brand of blade is important. Some are too soft, some far to hard and brittle. Tajima & Olpha are good.
http://www.olfa.co.jp/en/body/kind/4_p1.html
For felt, the blade needs to be VERY sharp. I usually use the type of sided cutter pliers whose blades, on one side, have a flat surface. High quality probably required. These are expensive!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-10 22:53
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> For felt, the blade needs to be VERY sharp.
One also needs the right technique - many people are tempted to cut soft materials in the same way as cutting paper: at a 30..45° angle, with more or less pressure. That won't do very well. I use the long (and very sharp) blade of my pocket knife. It's slightly rounded and I just give it one long soft pulling cut, using all the blade's length. In a way I'm rather sawing (Japanese-style: pull not push action) than cutting, but it works for me. Next time at the butcher's, watch how thin slices are cut...
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-11 02:33
Either that method, or a guillotine action.
You can get away with a little more bluntness with a guillotine action, but alignment must be good, or you start peeling the plating off the key!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-12-11 13:16
Well, there are single edge and double edge razor blades and the ones you snap in half are obviously(but not stated) the double edge ones. The old Gillette "blue blades" were better than the later brownish ones. An old trick for sharpening them was to hold them flat against the inside of a water glass while moving them circumferentially back and forth, then turn the blade over and repeat. The advantage of the split double edge blade over thicker choices is that you can bend them slightly for the necessary cuts. 440C stainless, or the European equivalent, can be treated so as to be as useful as high speed for instrument work purposes.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-11 21:29
I once saw a catalogue that listed a variety of GRADES of razor blade. Some were a lot sharper, but cost a lot more.
Presumably some grades keep their edge a lot better than others too. This is certainly the case between brands for the snap-off blades I use. If you buy the cheapest, made-in-China blades, you may possibly expect dismal performance.
I can't find that catalogue now.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-11 22:24
I've mostly used blades made in Sheffield.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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