 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: voggorb
Date: 2006-12-04 21:17
Hi,
How does the B40 compare to Walter's kaspar-style K14? Can anyone describe the differences, pros, cons, etc? I know professionals play with B40 (Swedish Putte Wickman for example, though he passed away recently), but it seems like a handmade mpc for double the price should be even more fun to play.
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Author: kfrank1
Date: 2006-12-04 21:44
I am currently borrowing my teacher's backup B40 mpc which I liked except for the fact that it felt a bit restrictive. There seemed to be quite a few posts raving about Grabner mpcs's so I emailed Grabner and he suggested a K14. However, after trying it I still prefered the B40 because it had a darker sound and was easier to play altissimo.
I am waitng for the B40 to be stocked at wwbw so I can trial it along with a few other pieces. In the meantime, I told Walt Grabner the above and he is now suggesting his CXZ_SW2_PERS which he recently revived as people were asking him for darker pieces.
Post Edited (2006-12-04 21:45)
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Author: voggorb
Date: 2006-12-04 21:50
Hmmm that is kind of strange what you are saying, because a lot of people here on the forum talks about how dark the sound of the k14 is, while you say the B40 is darker. And it worries me that you say the B40 is easier to play altissimo, because that is one of my greatest problems.
[ Snipped - GBK ]
I was hoping the K14 would be a good upgrade from the B40, but maybe that isn't the case...?
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-12-05 15:04
I play on a Grabner K14 and feel it is an exceptional mouthpiece. I have also played a Vandoren B40, but did not keep it. I have not, however, compared the two side by side which would be the best thing to do for a real comparison.
Walter makes a very reed friendly mouthpiece and works with you to find or refine what you want.
You might also try a Gregory Smith Kaspar. His mouthpieces are superb and he is wonderful to work with as well.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-12-05 16:12
For easy access to the altissimo, try a Lee Livengood "G" model on a zinner blank. Its a little resistant, but hugely improved my alti playing. It speaks better, and it plays in better tune.
Bob Phillips
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Author: voggorb
Date: 2006-12-05 16:56
Brenda: in what way does Grabner "work" with me to find what I want? I just told him my setup, and kind of what sound I prefer, and he suggested the K14 and K13, which he will send me. He doesn't make them personalized for me, right?
And I have considered the greg smith kaspar, but I don't know if it is worth the extra money...though, if you guys can convince me that I will experience a noticable difference (meaning better) with the greg smith vs the grabner, I might go for that instead...
Bob: ok, I haven't heard anything about the Lee Livengood, but I'll look it up! thx for the advice.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-12-05 18:46
voggorb,
I can't speak for Mr. Grabner or Mr. Smith as to what they are willing to do for a client because that is entirely up to them. However, if you have already told Walter your set up and he has suggested the K14 or K13, I suggest you try them and see how you like them. You will have your Vandoren B40 to test and compare them with, so that should answer your questions. If, however, you are unhappy with the Grabner or Smith mouthpieces, you can talk to either of these guys and they can help you and perhaps suggest different facings, etc. Perhaps a phone call would be better than an email in this regard.
As to the pricing of these great professional, hand-finished mouthpieces, it would be an extremely difficult thing to determine dollar figures for these great artisans. All I can say is perhaps you should try both and get the one that is best for you. I've found the money to be well spent in every case I've purchased professional mouthpieces from these men. I've worked with both Greg Smith and Walter Grabner for several years now and I have always been 100% happy with their honest and expert work. They listen and take you seriously. That is a big plus!
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Author: massa
Date: 2006-12-06 17:47
voggorb wrote:
> I was hoping the K14 would be a good upgrade
> from the B40, but maybe that isn't the case...?
I know you are thinking about K14 but let me share my thoughts here since I was (or maybe still am) a big fun of Vandoren B40, who recently tried Grabner mouthpieces (though not K14, it may satisfy some of your inquiries)
I tried Grabner K13 and I am totally convinced that it will be a definite improvement over B40. I used to play on B40 for its overall sound, free-blowing feeling (as it takes as much as air I blow in), and reed friendliness. Only draw back for me was as you have been encountering: the control difficulty on altissimo. CXZ_K13 is a relatively "close" specimen, measurement-wise. Tip opening of 1.05-1.06, which is even less open than Vandoren 5RV Lyre.
I have not played on sooooo many mouthpieces but I can tell you that K13 happens to me that it is the most comfortable mouthpiece ever. It's so free and feels unbelievably "open."
Until I tried it, I was a bit skeptical about all that hype, but I guess I'm one of them worshipping Mr. Grabner from now on. The altissimo control is a breeze. Beautiful sound throughout. No stuffiness to be found. Very reed friendly (not enough experimeting here yet, but Mr. Grabner claims it's even friendly with Legere reeds. At least, no worse than B40, which I found relatively reed friendly)
Now, I don't know all of CXZ K13 feels this open since I only tried one K13. Other Kaspar inspired MPs I tried didn't feel this way either. Mr. Grabner writes that his K14 is "free" and it is more open than K13. Well, if you liked B40 for the reasons I liked, start trying from K13 since it is a darn good "open"-feel piece. I am trying to stop myself from sampling K11 (even more close, ranging 1.03-1.04mm tip opening)... I'm now scared of trying the Grabner 'cause I know I will like them and end up being a homeless eventually.
CXZ-K13 kicked my B40 out of my clarinet case for good. I will display B40 to honour its services on the bookshelf ;-)
- m
Post Edited (2006-12-06 17:53)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-12-06 18:08
I can only speak in generalities, not having tried either of the specific models in question, so here's my 0.02 euros worth: Given two or more Walter Grabner mouthpieces of the same model, it's likely that most or all will play nearly identically to each other, as they are handmade and Walter is very good. Given two or more Vandorens of the same model, it's likely that there will be significant variability in their feel and playing qualities between samples, because the mouthpieces are mass-produced (though I'll concede that they are certainly among the better, if not the best, of the mass-produced machine-made mouthpiece brands).
So, while Joe Blow's Grabner K14 is likely to play very much like anyone else's K14, I would certainly not bet any money that Kandy Klarinette's Vandoren B40 will necessarily play similarly to Sean Skwawk's B40 or anyone else's.
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Author: massa
Date: 2006-12-06 18:38
I agree, David.
I had to audition several of B40 pieces to pick mine. Interesting some just don't play like "B40" at all. I know some extremists constantly trying the same model. Like over 50 of them to pick a few out!!
Now, Grabner pieces. It's so scary, they play so well. I regretted that I did not ask Mr. Grabner to send me two of the same model. The consequence will be: I find a piece I prefer over the other = 1 great mouthpice & a happy clarinettist. Instead, I have two different models, and told myself, no more trials. (Oh, wait... The Fest is coming to town in 2007... I'm DOOMED!!)
[FYI, I tried SW1-PERS, it's so unique, any exhaled air through it becomes sound, a quality one! If you put it on a breathing animal or whatever, I bet you it will produce clarinet sound. It will kick out the Vandoren M15 (regular and Ser.13) altogether from my collection, but they don't get a special treatment like B40, my ex-love]
- m
Post Edited (2006-12-06 18:42)
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Author: voggorb
Date: 2006-12-06 18:54
Thx for telling me about your experiences with these mouthpieces. I guess there is no more to it than for mer to order some mouthpieces from Grabner and try them myself! Thx again.
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2006-12-06 19:08
Be careful with the grabner mouthpiece like the K13 or 14. Loud altissimo playing or high clarion can get very flat. Also have a friend listen to you out in a hall as Grabner mouthpieces can soud very dull far away and with out a lot of clarity in the articualtion. I think Walter is a fantastic maker and a great guy but after playing his K13 for over a year, I realized there are things about his mouthpieces that can take a lot of work to overcome. I do agree that when you first play them that they seem so fantastic but after you play them for a while and take some auditions and get the same comments from the comitees you start to notice the flaws. I switched mouthpieces and have not had the same issues as I mentioned. Maybe they were just not the right choice for me.
Good Luck
Post Edited (2006-12-06 19:49)
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Author: massa
Date: 2006-12-06 19:40
I do not belive in "one Size Fits All" so it is nice to see not-that-positive feedbacks. I was so skeptical about Mr. Grabner's MPs because all I see is praise, praise, and more praise including myself.
I admit that I should not post my comments based on my limited time of playing with the Grabners but I also believe in intuitive "love at the first" playing, like I had with B40 for instance. Well, we'll see. Please refer to this thread 5 years later. I hope I'm right about my feeling and still playing the same MP.
Also, good luck from me for your new trial!
- m
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-12-07 02:36
I'm there with Dave. I auditioned two of Walter Grabner's mouthpieces and could not tell the difference between them.
David's mouthpieces are also very consistent. I've been priveledged to have 3 at once, and they also were indistinguishable from one another.
Bob Phillips
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-07 06:29
"Given two or more Walter Grabner mouthpieces of the same model, it's likely that most or all will play nearly identically to each other, as they are handmade and Walter is very good."
I am not sure about this at all. I remember at least several people posting both here and on SOTW that they ordered two Grabner mouthpieces of the same model, and they were different from each other. Actually, in most cases I remember the poster explaining they asked Grabner about it and he replied that there is no point in sending two similar mouthpieces, which makes sense if you are trying to choose a new mouthpiece (the only situation I can think of where identical as possible mouthpieces is good is when you look for a backup).
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2006-12-08 15:52
"Actually, in most cases I remember the poster explaining they asked Grabner about it and he replied that there is no point in sending two similar mouthpieces, which makes sense if you are trying to choose a new mouthpiece (the only situation I can think of where identical as possible mouthpieces is good is when you look for a backup)."
Absolutely, Pick a mouthpiece and learn how to play IT. Not the other way around. Both those mouthpieces will get you there. Talking about consistency is absolutely irrelevent unless it's your backup.
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Author: voggorb
Date: 2006-12-10 10:15
Thank you for all your comments. I ordered the K14 and K13 a few days ago, and will be receiving them on wendesday or thursday I hope. I'll write what I thought about them after having tried them for a few days.
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Author: voggorb
Date: 2007-03-23 19:38
Hi again. I've now been playing my K14 mouthpiece for about three months, and here is what I have noticed:
The sound is beautiful. It's rich, focused and all that, and it has improved my tounging, i ex I can play staccato much "cleaner". It cannot play very loud, but definitely loud enough. I much prefer the tonal qualities of the K14 over the B40.
Though, there are a few pretty big problems which I have realized only recently. The main problem is tuning. The twelfths in the right hand (E-B, F-C), are VERY wide. The low E and B are okay in tune, but the clarion B and C are way sharp, more than 20 cents i think it was. And the upper clarion B and mostly C, are a bit flat, which therefore makes the interval C to C horribly off-tune. Another problem (not as big though) is that I have had no success at all in trying different Legere reeds on it. And a third problem for me is the altissimo register, which I find much harder to control than when playing a B40 (which additionally plays better in tune with my Buffet RC than the K14). The tones above high C sharp are pretty hard for me to get to speak instantly, but I know most of the problem lies in my embouchure and breathing.
Might be useful to mention that the stock buffet barrel which I play is 65mm.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-03-23 21:44
Voggorb,
Have you tried Legere #3 Quebec reeds? They work beautifully for me on my K14. I don't like the regular Legere soprano clarinet reeds. The Quebec is MUCH BETTER.
Have you spoken with Walter Grabner about your tuning issues? He may have some suggestions.
A final suggestion..... A couple months ago I tried a Vandoren Klassik string ligature on my K14 and was completely blown away but what an impressive difference it made in my sound, projection (big time!), and response. I cannot help but think it will do wonderful things to the performance of your K14. It's like having a supercharged K14.
Good luck!
Roger
Post Edited (2007-03-23 21:46)
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2007-03-23 22:23
"Have you spoken with Walter Grabner about your tuning issues? He may have some suggestions."
I doubt that there is much that can be done about the tunning issues. I experienced similar issues with horrible tunning problems on my Grabner. I believe it is a problem with the mouthpiece (maybe the chamber ).
You know it's one thing to play a mouthpiece that helps us sound beautiful but the most beautiful sound I ever heard was an in tune one.
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Author: voggorb
Date: 2007-03-23 22:46
"I doubt that there is much that can be done about the tunning issues."
Aren't there any good barrels that could help? I tried a chadash barrel that my teacher owns, but it didn't really make the tuning much better, but the tone was different. As I mentioned I play on a Buffet RC. What tuning barrels (with nice tone of course!) could be recommended for my setup? Do you think one of Grabner's hand made barrels would do the trick? Or is the backun barrel maybe the best choice? I don't really want to pay for yet another clarinet part just so that my mouthpiece works, but still, a barrel which fixes the tuning problems might be the optimal and ideal choice, because then I have both the tone I want and good tuning, right? If I instead bought a new mouthpiece, maybe the tuning would be good, but not the tone quality.
So, my question is: which barrel, if any, might be able to solve my tuning problem?
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-03-23 22:52
Let's not forget about the B40 'lyre'
Similar to B40....worth a try.
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2007-03-23 23:08
"So, my question is: which barrel, if any, might be able to solve my tuning problem?"
As people have said its best to contact walter with that question.
I will say this, I tried Moening, Chadash, Backun, Muncy, Fobes, and one of Walters barrels and none of them helped my situation. Good luck. The only one that got things even close to under control was a Chadash 66mm A clarinet barrel for my B flat. It could also be that the Grabner mouthpieces just dont work well with Buffet RC clarinets.
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Author: voggorb
Date: 2007-03-23 23:23
"As people have said its best to contact walter with that question.
I will say this, I tried Moening, Chadash, Backun, Muncy, Fobes, and one of Walters barrels and none of them helped my situation. Good luck. The only one that got things even close to under control was a Chadash 66mm A clarinet barrel for my B flat. It could also be that the Grabner mouthpieces just dont work well with Buffet RC clarinets."
Thanx for your reply, and of course for all other replies as well. This doesn't sound too good though (no pun intended). I just send an email to Walter Grabner describing the situation, and hope he has some good news...
Do the Greg smith mouthpieces have the same tuning issues as Grabner's? Maybe I should have gone for one of them from the beginning...sigh...
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2007-03-23 23:35
"Do the Greg smith mouthpieces have the same tuning issues as Grabner's? Maybe I should have gone for one of them from the beginning...sigh..."
Don't give up hope, Walter knows his products and maybe he can find a way to fix your problem. I did not have any luck but every problem is individual. I hope that since you like the mouthpiece that a fix can be found. I did not notice any of the tunning issues with Greg Smiths mouthpieces but his mouthpieces are very, very different from Walters.
You know it is also worth trying Richard Hawkins mouthpieces and Clark Fobes. During my mouthpiece hunt over the last year and a half, the two makers that most impressed me with their craftsmanship were Fobes and Hawkins. That is not to say that any one is better than the other just that for me there was a noticeable qulaity to these two makers as compard to Lomax, Grabner or Smith.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-03-24 12:04
Bufclar and Voggorb,
If I didn't think Walter Grabner might be able to offer some advice about tuning problems I would not have suggested it.
It appears that Voggorb is using a R-13 (right?). That is helpful since Walter uses one and also works on them. Plus, he has a selection of various kinds barrels. (check out his web site to see them) Given the high level of customer service Walter provides I have hopes that he can be of help.
Walter was helpful to me in resolving tuning issues I had in trying several of his Kaspar models on my Patricola C clarinet and a plastic Yamaha I purchased for outdoor performances.
K11 and K14 mouthpieces were terribly flat on the Yamaha. Walter mentioned to me that one other person told him that recently. He sent a K2E and I tried several barrel sizes (black diamond synthetic barrel made by Phil Muncy). We hit pay dirt with the K2E and a 64 mm Muncy barrel. With this set up intonation was spot on.
A K11 worked pretty well on the C clarinet....better than a K2E. However, it turns out that I have even better intonation on the C with a Gregory Smith Chedeville. One limitation I have is my reed of choice is a Legere Quebec. Several of the Grabner non-Kaspar models that might have worked even better on my C clarinet do not work as well with Legere reeds. So, I was kind of stuck on that clarinet. Never the less, Grabner mouthpieces work beautifully for me -- with excellent intonation -- on my other clarinets and bass clarinet. I'm especially impressed with how good the intonation is with a K14 on my two vintage Couesnon Monopole clarinets.
Good luck!!! Please let us know how you come out.
PS, it's my impression that Grabner Kaspar-style mouthpieces have a larger amount of chamber volume than mouthpieces like a B40 or a Gregory Smith Chedeville. Are there some folks on the forum who can speak to this?
It's been my thinking that talking about mouthpieces in an isolated way -- without taking into account the rest of one's equipment is not that helpful. It's been my experience that it's a matter of finding a good match between each part of one's equipment. It comes down to some mouthpieces working better than others on my particular clarinet and barrel. It's not that one mouthpiece is "better" than another. It's just that for whatever subtle aspects of its design one mouthpiece can be a better match than another for the characteristics of my clarinet....of course, taking into account me as an individual player too. Many variables!
Anyway, I'm curious about the chamber volume in Grabner Kaspars and how it compares to other mouthpieces...even Kaspar-style pieces made by other makers (Smith, Fobes, etc).
Roger
Post Edited (2007-03-24 13:27)
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Author: voggorb
Date: 2007-03-24 14:37
Thank you Roger for your long reply. I really appreciate how you take your time and try to help out.
"It appears that Voggorb is using a R-13 (right?). That is helpful since Walter uses one and also works on them. Plus, he has a selection of various kinds barrels. (check out his web site to see them) Given the high level of customer service Walter provides I have hopes that he can be of help."
No, I play on an RC. And Grabener has replied to my email. He recommended the Moennig 65mm barrel, which makes me pretty confused, because his website describes that barrel as a good option for those who have problems with wide twelths in left hand, and my situation is quite the opposite (wide 12ths in right hand, and high clarion B and C a bit flat). I just can't make any sense out of his reply, can you?
Victor
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2007-03-24 15:23
Yeah that doesn't make any sense to me as well. I always thought Moening barrels were/are designed for R13 type clarinets and the RC while similar has a slightly different bore and a different placement of the register tube. If your clarion B and C are flat then the moening might make them even more flat. When I was working with a Grabner mouthpiece, my upper clarion notes were flat and the louder I played the flatter they got which made me bite to keep them in tune. By bitting the sound got really bad thus making the sound of the mouthpiece completely irrelevant. In the end it just took to much work to play in tune.
This is why I make the comments I do when people talk about Grabner mouthpieces because I was in love with them as well and then the honey moon ended. I think its great that some people have great results with them but for me they were nothing short of problematic. This goes back to my comment about Hawkins and Fobes mouthpieces as well as Smiths. These three makers are all fantastic players as well as makers and their products don't have the same quirks or issues as I found with the Grabner.
You always have the option of taking the mouthpiece and your instrument to a repair tech and talking about the intonation issues to see if some adjustments to your instrument can be done to make the Grabner work for you but that is a road I refused to go down. My idea of a good mouthpiece is one that makes making music easier and having to go to so much trouble was just not worth it. It should work for you not against you.
Maybe try some other mouthpieces before you keep the Grabner because it cant hurt to try everything you can.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-03-25 13:46
Bufclar,
I'm curious, did you try any Grabner mouthpieces besides his Kaspar-style models? It seems that folks most often talk about his Kaspars. His other models -- Chicago, Personal series, etc -- have different designs. I cannot help but think if one is having intonation, response, or projection problems with one of his Kaspars that it's possible that one might have better results with one of his other models.
My experience with Grabner mouthpieces is limited to the K11, K14, K2E, and LB (on bass). I've been curious about his other models but I'm so happy with the K14 I haven't felt the motivation to reach into my wallet for the $$ to send off for a Chicago or a Personal.
I found some interesting differences between the K2E and the other Grabner Kaspars...even though the K2E has a Kaspar-style design. The K2E has a slightly smaller bore than the K11, K13, and K14. Plus, the K2E does not have the lower baffle scooped out like the other K models. Perhaps for these reasons the K2E has more focus, a slightly brighter sound, and plays differently from my K11 and K14. While I prefer the K14 on my particular clarinet, it's my opinion that the K2E is an excellent mouthpiece and I'm curious about why it's not mentioned much in discussions on the forum about Grabner mouthpieces.
One of these days I'll have to get around to trying a Grabner Chicago....just to see what it's like.
Roger
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Author: voggorb
Date: 2007-03-25 15:29
Roger,
Just wondering, do you not have any intonation problems with your K14? What clarinet are you playing?
Victor
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-03-25 17:10
Victor,
No intonation problems at all with my K14 or the other Grabner mouthpieces I have. I have several clarinets. My primary ones are vintage Couesnon Monopole Conservatories. One was made in 1960 and the other is from the early 1970's. I've come to really love CM clarinets. Thanks to David Spiegelthal for telling me about them! CMs are not easy to find so I feel very lucky in having two in such superb condition. The bore of the CM clarinet is a bit larger than an R-13 or RC and has a darker sound.
As I mentioned before, I also have a plastic Yamaha clarinet (.574 bore). Grabner mouthpieces play flat on it. But, once I got squared away with using a Grabner K2E mouthpiece on it and a 64 mm barrel I was able to achieve good intonation. I've checked it against a tuner and cannot find any intonation problems.
Roger
Post Edited (2007-03-25 17:11)
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Author: voggorb
Date: 2007-03-25 18:38
Ok, thanx for the info, Roger.
I emailed Grabner again, asking him if he thinks the Moennig barrel will help reduce my 12ths in the lower hand, and make upper clarion less flat (this is how I described my situation in the first mail), and I received a strange reply. He simply quotes my question, and then answers:
"No, not one bit. Neither does the mouthpiece really affect these, either positively or negatively."
So I don't understand why he recommended it to me in the first place, saying he does have some (Moennig barrels) in stock for my "exact problem".
Anybody else who can make sense out of all this?!
Victor
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-03-25 19:09
Victor,
I think it's best for you to call Walter on the phone and talk with him directly. In that way you can tell him specifically what's wrong and if his reply doesn't make sense then you can tell him that. I've found Walter to be easy and helpful to speak to.
Good luck!
PS, If you decide the K14 is not for you please let me know. I might be in the market for another one for my latest CM clarinet.
Roger
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2007-03-30 19:02
Victor - would you please ask me directly, instead of asking the Bulletin Board, since they were not included in the entire conversation?
Walter Grabner
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2007-03-31 15:45
Victor and I have subsequently have had at least one e-mail exchange. I believe that we both mis-undestood each other, trying to discuss some very complicated issues in very short cryptic e-mails.
The fact is, when you send out mouthpieces, you really have very little idea how the mouthpiece will work for that given individual. Each clarinetists is different and each clarinet is different. Add to that all the types of custom barrels that are available, different reed types and strengths, etc.....and all kinds of possibilties pop up.
Some of these defy remote analysis, but we do what we can.
I will state, and maybe I should put this in the literature included with shipped mouthpiece - NO MATTER HOW MUCH you like the tone and response of a given mouthpiece...DO NOT BUY IT, if you cannot play it in tune. Always have a tuner available why you try mouthpieces.
Also, remember that mouthpieces need to warm up too. You need to play on a mouthpiece for at least five minutes, maybe longer before you can really judge it's intonation patterns. Also, be sure to use newer reeds and a strength recommended by the mouthpiece maker for that model.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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