 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2006-12-02 21:44
That is the Blues, fourths, until the G7 pickup to the 8th bar which goes through the C major Rhythm Changes until the 12th bar. We can use "horizontal polymodality" to embellish our C7 and F7 arpeggios: CM (Acm) Dcm Gcm Ccm CM (Acm) scales in a row ("cm" is the natural- plus the harmonic-minor scales together; the b natural note of CM (Acm) sounds modern when it is used like this on the C7 chord, as Clarnibass knows); flip back to CM after the the Gcm if you want. We have just been able to smooth out the harmony problem in the old traditional blues as your heavy handed piano player goes back from F7 to the C7, an awkward fifth movement.
Now with some secondary harmony: CM C#dim Dcm F#dim Gcm Bdim Ccm CM (Ccm is optional). In my harmony, only the diminsihed scale that does not contain the note of the target scale's root can lead to it, but all three can follow it (for different flavors, allencole). Any diminished scale can lead to a melodic-minor (mm) scale, on the other hand, that's freedom! In minor key harmony to embellish our C7 F7 arpeggios let us alternate the Dcm and Gcm scales over them, while the modern blues already ends with a C major scale on bar 13 when we are done with the tune.
Oh, minor key harmony later, but as an example, the Fmm, Bb mm, and Cmm scales apply to the Acm scale; but if it is followed by the Dcm scale then only mm scales common to both of them can be used. I can justify these scales in minor key harmony if you want.
Acm Adim Fmm Acm, this is one of my examples of "bookends" to impose on diatonic harmony (say, CM Am7 Dm7 G7 CM), Ken
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Author: allencole
Date: 2006-12-02 23:35
Ken,
Perhaps I'm alone in seeing nothing helpful here, except the use of A-flat melodic minor as an easy-to-remember substitution for a G altered dominant. Everything else seems like an unnecessary complication.
Here's why:
1 - You still fail to define in no uncertain terms the structure of the "complex minor" scale, even after I have provided you an example to say yea or nay to. I am trying do deal with your description of merging natural and harmonic minor, when discussing things like this (and using terminology not even available on Google) I think it's important to spell things out.
2 - Most of your description of the underlying chord changes is unclear. I suggest that you try using slants for barlines, and showing exactly what you mean. A sequence of C7 F7 C7 F7 C7 over a certain number of measures means nothing unless you make clear the timing of those chords.
3 - Your mention of a "G7 pickup" in bar 8 is probably just poor wording. Do you actually mean a pickup in bar 8 to the G7 that we normally expect on bar 9?
4 - Likewise the description of "C major rhythm changes until the 12th bar", is also unclear. Is this a chord structure associated with your concept, or is this a sequence of substutions that you are imposing as a soloist over basic chord changes. If so, this entire discussion is useless unless you communicate the sequences of both rhythm chords and soloist scales with their proper timing.
5 - Some of your concepts trouble me. Again, I address your contention that any of three diminished scales can follow the target. (I assume here that by 'target' you mean a point of harmonic resolution) I don't disagree that this is possible. I do disagree that this has any significance. ANYTHING can follow a point of resolution, because it is not being derived from resolution that it follows. It is derived from its own target which lies ahead. What I see in the sequences of your original post is that the diminished scale which follows the target is simply the scale which leads to your next harmonic-minor-to-complex-minor sequence.
Let's return to your original post. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm reading your progression of Abmm Ccm Cdim as tension-resolution-modulation. Of course the Cdim can follow Ccm. You're using it to lead to Dbmm if I'm reading you right. If it were leading to Dmm, I believe that you would--by your own description--have no choice put to use C#dim. So I don't see where you're free to follow your target with any of 3 choices. The choice seems to me pre-ordained by your next target.
6 - Your entire idea is based on your contention that a IV-I progression is awkward in the blues. I can't see where it's awkward in any facet of western music. In fact, most practitioners seem to find IV-I preferable to a straight V-I in several instances. Let me offer two examples of bars 9-12 (key of C) in the format that I have proposed to you above.
Basic, no-frills blues: /G7 /G7 /C7 /C7 //
Common-practice blues: /G7 /F7 /C7 /C7 //
It's also a frequent practice in bars 1-4 of the blues to add a IV chord in bar 2. Personally, I find it a lot more engaging than blowing 4 straight bars of C-chord.
Basic, no-frills blues: /C7 /C7 /C7 /C7 //
Common enhancement: /C7 /F7 /C7 /C7 //
7 - I'm also troubled by the concept of resolving the blues on bar 13. Most blues resolve on bar 11, but are often followed by a turnaround of some kind to help pull the listener to the beginning of the next chorus. I accept that the last chorus could have a bar 13, but I don't see where this (let alone something like a turnaround or 'rhythm changes') would be part of a basic blues.
And this brings me full-circle to the question of the sequencing (and TIMING) of both your scale sequences, and the chord changes you envision in the rhythm section. You claim a great amount of freedom, but I am not convinced that this is done without stacking the deck in the rhythm section.
I've never thought of the Lydian Chromatic Concept (which I assme is your basis for all this) as something to do with plodding, simplistic rhythm players, but perhaps with some clarification of what you present, I'll see where the freedom lies.
[Note to Glenn or Mark: This thread is actually a continuation of the thread "Blues Harmony Problem." It may be that this thread would be more productive if appended to that one.]
Allen Cole
Post Edited (2006-12-04 15:10)
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Author: William
Date: 2006-12-04 14:33
Man--too much to think about. I'll just play it by ear..........
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2006-12-04 22:00
Thank You allencole; I have a little time today. The blues progression comes from the Aebersold volume of the modern blues. The rhythm changes has the G7 that goes into it at beats 3 and4 of bar 7 through to the last bar. His ending seems abrupt, however, nothing after bar 12, so the C major scale is what I have heard to wrap it up, or a cadenza, hell.
The mm scales refer to tritone substitution, I should have mentioned that. It applies to the I - IV - V chords of the key's scale of C harmonic-minor or natural-minor. I do not like the G7alt to CM but Ccm is really good. I don't know: after all, you will see Db7 or G7+9 to CM once in a while (while these two dominants have the same tritone, the Db7 has a #11 to make the Abmm scale). Between the Dcm and Gcm scales you are allowed to use their dominant mm scales so Dcm to Gcm to Dcm again, etc, get Bbmm and Ebmm. On the other hand, if you use only diminished scales as a secondary scale be sure that C#dim precedes Dcm and F#dim precedes Gcm. Any diminished scale will work, however, if there is a mm scale already in front of your cm scale.
I did not use the term, complex minor, just make the cm scale the way I said. My references are David Johnson and Russ Lombardi of Jazz Player magazine for the tritone subs in minor key harmony (Johnson) and the Bb7 to CM [Ccm to CM (Acm), as Lombardi told us about Gershwin and rhythm changes]. This is why I went to the minor key as just one primary scale to worry about. How do you describe harmonic movement unless you have just one kind of basic scale? I also use modal interchange and secondary dominants to get to the notion that if you are in the key of C major then the Ccm Dcm Ecm Fcm Gcm Acm Bcm scales can be used. Some of them are takeoff scales while others are used to return to your C major triad at the end of your C major tune.
D7 G7 C7 F7 etc, use the mm and dim scales alternately, you know which dim scale to use on the D7 and which mm scale to use on the G7, then dim on C7, etc, to see how one leads to the other. But also go to your mm with the same dim used to go to a cm: that is Edim to Fmm, so F#dim or Edim to Fmm is possible, for example, but only Edim to Fcm.
I don't have big ears like the others replying, so I need this. Also one does not have to sit down and feel creative all the time if one just listens to his blues the way an audience would. What does Mother Nature have in store for us next as we follow the procedures of harmonic resolutions that are scientific in my attempt? At least it is relaxing. Those 12 notes come from nature, just blow a bugle to get the octave, fifth, and fourth, repeat the melody of two notes a fourth apart and by the time you get back to where you started you have played 12 different notes as the Greeks discovered. They went up a fourth, not a fifth, to get that strong melody like Here Comes the Bride. Thanks, Ken
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Author: allencole
Date: 2006-12-05 16:55
Hi Ken,
I reread your inital post and you are right. You said "Compound Minor" not "Complex Minor." My bad.
Now some additional questions for clarification:
1 - By "Modern Blues" which Aebersold volume are you referencing? Would it be Vol. 88, Millenium blues? If so, which of the pieces are your referencing?
2 - Please confirm that your examples are being given in the key of C. This is the assumption that I have made in reading your descriptions.
3 - Please confirm (since I don't have Aebersold Vol.88) whether you are talking about Major or Minor blues. I'm concerned about this because you referenced an article on tritone substitution in minor blues.
I've review your posts again and try to present some additional questions as soon as I get a little more time.
Allen Cole
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2006-12-06 01:50
The Aebersold Blues volume 42 I guess is supposed to be the official modern blues in a major key. Bars 8 through 12 look like rhythm changes CM/A7/Dm7/G7/CM. Here the D harmonic minor scale is required because the A7 is supposed to have a flat 9, the same when you see C#dim/Dm7 in the key of C major. The audience knows what key you are in because they can sing the key note. So when you run down a scale that contains a c# they will hear something when the tune is in the key of C. This is why I like to distinguish between the natural and harmonic minor as I use them interchangeably in their harmonic function.
Allen, The Ruthless Criticism Of All That Exists is the definition of science. After all, what would be the point if it were not for the fact (that musicians appreciate) that THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION IN NATURE, unless the stars suddenly go out or something. So I appreciate your attitude. ("The Ruthless..." was a chapter heading in the book by Marx.) There is plenty of other aggravation from nature of course: "Stormy Monday and Tuesday was just as bad" makes me tired of lyrics that we get too much on our jazz station out here in San Francisco. Thanks, Ken
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