 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: marcia
Date: 2006-12-01 05:43
But can it reproduce that annoying squeak that we all love to hate??
Marcia
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-01 06:28
Most musical things are still impossible to do with a computer (like everything that is live or improvised). I can think of just a few places where it would be possible to replace humans with this (maybe film music), but this also depends on cost (I have no idea what will cost more).
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-01 06:55
There are a lot of places that this COULD replace the real thing (ex.- all CD recordings)- and that is the very reason that I don't like it.
I would be happy if keyboard companies would spent time making interesting sounds that CAN'T be made with real instruments- but doing this cuts into the only thing that we (live musicians) have. We always used to be able to say, "It still doesn't sound like the real thing", but this is very close, and in one year or two it'll be better.
True- it is not useful for live performance, but non-live performance is the bigger market now. Film scores are a good example; this is probably the only place that a lot of people even hear real instruments anymore- even pop singers now have loads of synthetic effects that can't be done with a real voice.
I don't like this one bit.
-S
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-12-01 14:08
Best bass playing I've ever heard..........who needs to buy a Prestige?
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-01 14:15
As if electronic gizmos clobbering us at chess isn't enough, now things are going too far! Will the symphony orchestra of the future consist of a stage full of synthesizers (in tux, of course)? Eu
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-12-01 15:16
Hah! It wasn't anywhere near as good. For example...in the last coda passage, the programmer slowed down a little.
We all know that a good musician would rush that passage!
James
ps...and the throat tones didn't even sound like throat tones! What were they thinking?!?
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2006-12-01 15:17)
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Author: cuscoclarinet
Date: 2006-12-01 17:39
Clarinibass- "but this also depends on cost (I have no idea what will cost more)"
Compare the cost of one keyboard, one keyboardist, and a 64 track recorder to hiring an orchestra for the day.
I don't know, but I think this is the wave of the future. Worry not though, when acrylic paint came out artists didn't give up oil color, nor has digital imaging meant the end of film photography. While our technology does have it's place, nothing will ever take the place of a full orchestra on stage.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-01 17:59
We can take this opportunity and once more bemoan the demise of live music. I guess our ancestors did the same when the first records came out, now we have Radios, MTV, CDs and MP3s and yet - those pesky musicians are still there.
Look at it from the other way round - you hear a sequence of an instrument whose tone makes you listen up. Eventually you think that it might be cool to play such an instrument yourself (and not just feed your computer with samples and sequences, every dolt can do this). You take the plunge, learn, enjoy it, and eventually go to concerts (even classical music although some ten years ago you found it sooooo bourgeois), to see how others are doing, or to simply enjoy the music - live music, that is.
Music is a lot about participating, not just consuming. A good part of the joy and satisfaction is in doing it, not just idly standing by.
--
Ben
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2006-12-01 18:30
I know Beethovens fifth since many year from recordings. This year I'm playing it myself. This music is no longer great, it is now unbelievebly fantastic, it's better than ever before !
I hope that many people will ever have the same experience to hear and feel what music (and art actually) really is all about
No computer can ever take away this real sensation of a full orchestra of life people, including (luckily) all mistakes they make !!
PS. I work with computers to make living ;-)
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Author: rgames
Date: 2006-12-01 18:41
I think it's more correct to call it the "wave of the present" rather than the "wave of the future." Sampled instruments are everywhere, especially in film and TV, and they have been for a number of years. It wasn't until the last year or so that it become hard to tell the difference in some circumstances. Rather, it's become hard for musicians to tell the difference (the general public is probably still fooled by 10 year old technology).
Even live music has seen an infusion of virtual instruments: there are pits all across the country that use combinations of real and sampled (and/or pre-recorded) instruments. In fact, there's a new ballet company in LA (yet another attempt at ballet in LA... another story) that's staging the Nutcracker with only 22 live musicians - the rest is sampled and sequenced (and they got an OK from the Union). That's the first I've heard of it happening in a ballet in a major city; it's more common in Broadway. The thing that really gets me about the LA ballet is that their website says "Every Performance Includes Live Music." While true, it is certainly misleading (the music director has a background in - surprise! - music for film and TV).
I am a firm believer that samples have their place; I use them all the time to demo compositions and arrangements and they can sound great in a finished work for TV/film. But I've never heard a combination of samples and live instruments that sounded good. Maybe somebody will figure out a way to make it work, or maybe we'll just get used to hearing live music that way.
So, anybody want to place bets on how long until the first major conductor replaces his/her baton with a mouse? And just as we look back at the basset horn as a period instrument, someday the "acoustic clarinet" might be regarded the same way.
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-12-01 18:57
I own the complete VSL VI library, plus many others. I compose and record music for a living, and make use of these tools on a daily basis. I'm mainly a pianist, but I own and play a huge number of instruments with varying degrees of success (including a lot of clarinets). Fortunately, when I'm working on my own projects, I can do things that are within my level of chops on these instruments. I find adding some real stuff to the computer virtual instruments makes a huge difference in the believability of the entire track. The bass clarinet example posted is quite good. I can guarantee you, though, that if you listen to this kind of thing on a regular basis, you become more aware of the differences. If you heard a lot of it, you would recognize the sterility and sameness. It's too pure - kind of like the difference between original polyester and natural fibers. Also, in these sorts of demos, realize that the demo makers usually seek out things that sound most convincing to show of the library/tool in the best light. Don't assume that everything sounds that convincing. In the real world today, the best use of these tools is for assembling larger ensembles. The more instruments playing, the less you can focus on the shortcomings of any one particular instrument.
These tools are definitely getting a lot better as time passes. The VSL library used to be a real PITA to use. You'd often have to set up a large number of virtual tracks to get all the articulations, etc. that you needed for a piece. They've really streamlined things with their new VI (virtual instrument), though. It's much easier to play a compelling performance, although it takes time to learn how to play these software instruments well.
The VSL interface is good, but on the market today, I think the Garritan instruments are vastly easier to play. Fortunately, for clarinetists, there's only a Stradivarius violin and a cello on the way at this point. The beauty of the Garritan instrument is that different waveforms at different volume/tonal levels are synchronized, so that a player can really move between dynamic levels on a held note. Also, Garritan really has transitions from note to note nailed. They really sound good.
There's no doubt in my mind that these computer instruments will continue to improve by leaps and bounds. There's a lot of interesting technology on the horizon, and the continuing dramatic drop in the cost of computer processing power will make previously unimaginable things possible.
If you guys want to be afraid of things, here's another aspect of this technology that will be a source of irritation for live players...
These days, more and more composers (especially younger composers), are spending more and more time using these compute tools tocompose works intended to eventually be played by live players on real instruments. They can really put together some stunning mock-ups of their compositions to see how things sound. These tools can also increase productivity. The downside to this is that there are only so many hours in a day and in a life. I truly believe that the time spent immersing oneself in this technology is being taken from the time composers in previous ages used to spend learning all the technical issues involved in playing various acoustic instruments. These virtual instruments are not limited by any of the technical issues of real instruments. So, a composer can easily put together an extremely flashy bass clarinet part in any key, and the computer cuts through it in no time flat like a hot knife through butter. The mock-up sounds great. It doesn't matter if it's all over the break, or in C#, or there's no space to breath. The computer doesn't care. Print that part out and hand it to a real player, and you may be looking at something that's literally impossible to play.
So, for newly written music, look forward to more and more hellish clarinet parts that don't lay at all well under your fingers.
My favorite story in this regard (hope I haven't told it here) is of a trombonist friend of mine going into a session to play a part that a barely musically literate computer musician had played into his sequencer at slower than actual tempo. It was a boogie-woogie style bass line oscillating back and forth between octaves at rapid speed. The composer played it for my friend on his keyboard before he went out into the studio to play it. My trombonist friend then gave the keyboardist a free arranging lesson. His comment was: "You know, if it takes two hands to play a part up to speed on a keyboard, chances are it's idiomatically not a very good part for trombone."
Post Edited (2006-12-01 19:17)
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Author: SFroehlich
Date: 2006-12-02 00:05
A great example of this is Eric Whitacre (I think it was him - looking at the program it could have been Anthony Suter).
One of my community band colleagues finally realized that he knew Eric's name from way back - Eric had built a great number of samples (the majority of the library) for the Commodore 64's synthisizer back in the day (it had a very advanced synth for its day).
Clearly, this is consistent with Whitacre's style - he definitely breaks some innovative ground with his work and creates some incredible sounds, but his works do include a fair number of near-impossible transitions.
An example: Every 6 months or so a young Bass Clarinetist will post here or in one of the other forums wondering how to do the throat A to clarion D tremelo in October.
When I had this converstation, the point was made that this is how the instrument design and technique envelopes get pushed and isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Post Edited (2006-12-02 00:06)
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-12-02 01:19
<<A great example of this is Eric Whitacre (I think it was him - looking at the program it could have been Anthony Suter).>>
Eric Whitacre is a spectacular choral composer. His stuff sends shivers up and down my spine.
I hope it's the other guy.
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2006-12-02 02:54
'kay, so it sounds good. Very authentic sounding. But not the real thing.
Who would you rather see playing this: a bass clarinet player or a keyboard player trying to sound like a bass clarinet?
To me this is the equivalent of a carnival sideshow. What's the point of trying to make a keyboard sound like a bass clarinet? Some people have a lot of time on their hands.
Why settle for virtual reality?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-12-02 03:21
The amount of time it took this person to program that versus the amount of time it took me to perfect that pushes it my favor. At the moment.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: rgames
Date: 2006-12-02 03:52
Jaysne wrote -
Quote:
What's the point of trying to make a keyboard sound like a bass clarinet?
Because once you do, you own it for eternity and have it at your command (along with every other instrument!). So - how much would it cost you to hire a bass clarinetist for every piece you produce over several years vs. purchasing a COMPLETE set of virtual musicians? It's no contest.
Tobin wrote -
Quote:
The amount of time it took this person to program that versus the amount of time it took me to perfect that pushes it my favor. At the moment.
I'm not so certain on that one. But even if you're correct consider this, let's say I now want it on bassoon instead. How are your bassoon chops? OK - now tuba - etc. Once sequenced, the mods required to change instruments are usually fairly minor - certainly less time than it takes to hire another musician!
LeeB wrote -
Quote:
I own the complete VSL VI library, plus many others.
(green with envy) Still getting by with just the Opus 1/2 libraries... I agree with you about the playability of the Garritan libraries - I have just been underwhelmed by the quality of the samples. Maybe the solo violin is different.
I think most musicians have accepted the fact that samples are a reality when it comes to music for recorded media but I don't see any way to replace live musicians for QUALITY live performances in the near future. No matter how good the speakers are, the acoustics of a live instrument can't be beat at present.
So stand strong!
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-02 04:49
"There are a lot of places that this COULD replace the real thing (ex.- all CD recordings)"
The music on 90% of the CDs I listen to can't be replaced with virtual instruments.
"Compare the cost of one keyboard, one keyboardist, and a 64 track recorder to hiring an orchestra for the day."
I have no idea whta will cost more (I would guess the orchestra) but your comparison is not really fair and ignores most things that would make the virtual instruments expensive.
"I don't see any way to replace live musicians for QUALITY live performances in the near future. No matter how good the speakers are, the acoustics of a live instrument can't be beat at present."
There a million other reasons why it is impossible for virtual instruments to replace players. In your example the virtual instruments will only sound worse, but I mean absolutely impossible.
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-12-02 06:25
<<<There a million other reasons why it is impossible for virtual instruments to replace players. >>>
Sadly, it's becoming more and more common. Sampled or canned music is very prevalent in theater productions and musicals. It's working its way into ballet and other forms of dance. Most major touring pop acts rely on a substantial amount of pre-recorded or sequenced music. If live players are hired, often, they are only pretending to play along with the recorded track.
If you want to read about a particular instance in a major city, check this thread on a virtual instrument/sample related forum out...
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49680
In this case, 33 of the instrument in the orchestra are being "performed" by a computer, with 22 live players, yet the organization advertises it as a live performance.
I'm a big user of this technology, myself, but I feel sorry for the musicians that have to play this particular type of music along with a machine.
There's no question that live playing jobs are vanishing at an enormous rate. In a lot of situations, the public can't tell the difference.
Post Edited (2006-12-02 06:30)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-12-04 16:22
This approach is viable simply because it costs so much to field a live orchestra. Note the use in venues and fields where the live orchestra is not the main attraction: theater and ballet. I would imagine that a marginal opera company would also consider going the virtual route, but they might encounter a little more resistance since the music is a much greater part of the attraction there.
Our skills cost a lot to develop, but the rest of the world is not all that interested in spending the kind of money that we'd like to see in return for our investment. If the main thrust of the production is something like dance or theater, the music is going to be of less importance, and thus likely to be shorted. Which would you rather see: animated ballet with live music, or live ballet with animated music?
Regarding impossible demands placed on a live musician by an electronically enabled composer, this is nothing new. Those familiar only with the piano keyboard have been writing this sort of stuff for many years, and many of them haven't bothered to crack a single orchestration book during that time.
(When you see a low A in a tenor sax part. odds are that the arranger is just one of those folks. (It exists, in the Reed III book for Gypsy.))
What irks me the most about these "new" musicians is that they have (in many cases) abandoned standard notation for one of the many schemes of dots and lines used by the electronic composition programs. Sort of like guitar tabs, they are systems that are easier to learn but a hell of a lot harder to communicate with others. However, it's not going to change any time soon...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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The Clarinet Pages
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