 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-01 00:40
... that is the question.
I'm talking of unplated nickel silver keys on a classic instrument - a Q-series Selmer bass (low Eb) I'm currently overhauling. I've cleaned all the grot and dried metal polish off the keys (and from inside the key barrels which is the reason for NOT using liquid polish on clarinets or any other instrument while the keys are still on), but I'm leaving the unplated keys with their natural patina. However, the wood has polished up very well and as with older Selmers, the wood is of a very high quality.
Just as well the keys are unplated as I've found several dry joints, some with jeweller's rouge in the joint - presumably from the time it was made as most of the pads and key corks are the originals. Had it been plated, sorting out dry joints would have been a headache.
But on the keys I've resoldered I've cleaned them up and left them with an 'antiqued' finish so they match the others.
Now, if you had an old Selmer bass clarinet of this era, would you polish all the unplated nickel silver keys (as well as the bell and crook) to look like new, or clean them all up but without removing the natural patina that gives the instrument a dignified look?
But it depends on how the keys look - this one has been polished using liquid polish (and made removing some screws difficult), so the keys and fittings have darkened but not dulled. But if the keys are green then I'd probably polish them. If this bass was mine I'd probably have the lot silver plated, but that's another matter open to debate.
Do you prefer older instruments to look authentic, or would you rather have them looking like new?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-12-01 01:03
I'm constantly renovating old clarinets (of various sizes) having solid (unplated) nickel-silver keys, and I always clean and polish the keywork and metal trim with Brasso and a soft terry cloth when overhauling. Patina, schmatina I say!
![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-01 07:49
On an old Buffet with unplated keys, I used a brass bristle mop to clean all the keys with, then put the lot in a rumbler with ceramic beads which smoothed out everything and left a nice 'antique' finish so it still looked like a 1938 Buffet - ie. preserving it's visual character.
Personally I do like a bright finish and I'm partial to having unpated keys silver plated, though this is a considerable cost to the customer - if they want that, they'd have to pay for it.
But I'd NEVER relacquer a classic sax - I'd rather have one where the lacquer has flaked off, though I'd still clean all the accumulated dirt off it with a damp cloth rather than washing it so what little lacquer is remaining doesn't get washed off.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-12-01 11:21
I don't try to make old clarinets look new, but I do clean them up and polish the keys, with the keys off the instrument. I don't try to make old nickel plating that's grayed down look bright--more trouble than it's worth, IMHO, although going over those keys lightly with Semi-Chrome polish (available in hardware stores) improves their appearance.
Chris P is so right about never re-lacquering a classic sax. Re-lacquering can cut the value in half. That's one reason why I looked for silver-plated vintage saxophones. The silver plating seems to wear better than lacquer, and there's not a big issue among saxaholics about polishing the silver (thought polishing up very old silver tablewear apparently is a no-no among some pundits). Since repeated polishing can wear off the silver plate, I keep a 3M Silver Protector Strip in each case with silver-plated instruments or keys and change the strip every year or so, to avoid the need to re-polish.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-12-01 15:14
If you're looking to sell the instrument, buyers will like a polished bell, neck and keys. Get a gold crayon and fill in the trademarks, too. While you're at it, clean up the case, polish the metal parts and use a black felt tip pen to cover up scratches on the exterior.
I prefer unpolished keys. The shiny ones are too slippery, particularly if the polish has wax in it.
Ken Shaw
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-01 17:11
I'm with Ken up to the crayon point. I'll clean everything but won't cover worn parts with pen or pencil - the beast is old and it stays old no matter how many cosmetic tricks I use.
What I can't stand is this artificial "antique burnished" finish (wrt saxes).
--
Ben
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-12-01 17:17
Be careful with the gold crayon, it can change the tonal qualities of the clarinet (according to the Golden Ears crowd, that is.....undetectable to Potato-Eared persons such as yours truly.........)
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-01 18:37
David, that really is a matter of how many times one rubs the crayon over the logo.
One pass across each part of the logo has been shown (by unknown scientists of Denbeigh University College at Leeds) to have no discernable effect on intonation, whereas a second pass across the logo has been detected by a listener in mezzanine 5-G.
Needless to say, if one rubs furiously back and forth, the logo becomes so weighted down with the gold wax that the conductor might require you to switch to another clarinet in order to be within a dollar or so of the rest of the orchestra. Eu
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-12-01 19:09
Thanks for that remarkably incisive and introspective elucidation, Eu! By the way, wasn't the "Denbeigh" a mythical car brand in Road & Track (or one of those other) automobile magazines some years ago? I didn't realize they also had an academic branch............
Anyway, I shall heed your warning and go easy on the application of gold wax crayon on any future mouthpiece or clarinet I work on.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-01 19:21
I might be mistaken (or is it an urban legend?), but I thought that TV-ed orchestra players weren't allowed to have discernible logos (logoes? nah) or emblems on their instruments. Product placement rules imposed by publicly-owned TV stations...?
--
Ben
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-01 19:24
Yep, R&T did a thorough road test on the Denbeigh somewhere back in the 1960's . . . believe it of not, at the time I was driving an Isetta and a Messerschmitt. Wish I had one now, but it would take a truck load of R13's to get a good one.
As for the Denbeigh University College Department of Acoustic Science, they were actually formed to discern the effect of the high pitched wine of the car's 3 cylinder 192 CC engine upon the acoustics of the Covent Garden's theatre as the car drove by during D'Oyley Carte's performances of HMS Pinafore. After the success of that project, the Department found the need for continued research into other acoustic matters, including logo marking crayons on clarinets. Things just grew from there. Eu
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-01 20:24
I've redone the logo with gold paste (the bottom joint logo was perfect after cleaning it with some meths on a cotton bud), polished and recut all the screw heads as well as blued all the non-stainless steel screws.
So that's the tone quality well and truly compromised!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-12-01 20:35
[ To all - let's try and keep this thread (somewhat) on topic - GBK ]
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2006-12-03 11:49
just a slight topic detour ......
but I myself also prefer shiny keys. If I was keeping the instrument for myself I would get the keys silverplated. If I was selling it ... maybe silverplated if you are selling in the right market or just polished all up.
(detour) I don't think i'll ever be able to pick up a gold crayon again =-p
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-04 00:31
I tried to redo the logo on a Selmer Signet, but the gold didn't stick too well where I wanted it to - it got into the grain well enough though!
The less said about the Signet's keywork (and springing), the better. I'm surprised it works!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SFroehlich
Date: 2006-12-04 03:56
One advangate of silver and tarnish is that with aluminum foil and an alkaline salt (baking soda, laundry detergent, etc.) you can reverse the process, putting the silver back more or less where it was instead of removing the tarnished silver.
For any situation where you had tarnished sliver or nickel-silver keys off of the horn, that would alwyas be my first step - it really can't do much harm AFAIK.
My understanding is that most silver polishes employ a combination of this principle and simply removing the Ag2S.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-04 04:15
"For any situation where you had tarnished sliver or nickel-silver keys off of the horn, that would alwyas be my first step - it really can't do much harm AFAIK"
There DOES seem to be a possible downside to this. See.
http://www.silversmithing.com/care.htm#Electrochemical
Interesting.
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Author: clarinet@55
Date: 2006-12-04 23:39
I would polish them all up. I like nice shiny keys. I use a metal polish called "Never Dull". It's a dry polish in a spun fiber material that you tear from itself to get just the amount you need. You rub it on the key in a circular motion and remove the residue by wiping it away with a cloth or paper towel. Worked Great for me on my old Malerne B flat keys that were heavily tarnished from 12 years of use.
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Author: Ray
Date: 2006-12-06 15:44
"Now, if you had an old Selmer bass clarinet of this era, would you polish all the unplated nickel silver keys (as well as the bell and crook) to look like new, or clean them all up but without removing the natural patina that gives the instrument a dignified look?"
I prefer the new look, and so I put a lot of time and effort into buffing and then cleaning my bass clarinet's nickel silver keys. Boy, they looked great!
Now its about three years later and they look just about the same as they did before all that work. Disappointing....
I like your idea of silver plating. I like the look and feel of silver plated keys the best, but be aware that when you plate the keys you also plate the inside of the tubes, so that the rods probably won't fit without some adjustment to the inside diameter of the tubes.
(I won't make a comment about the sound quality of silver keys. Its better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought ignorant than to open it and remove all doubt. Or something like that.)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-06 17:43
I've previously silver plated my Centered Tone set, my current Series 9 Bb )to match the silver plated A) and early '60s R13 Eb - and as an oboe finisher I'm used to dealing with freshly plated keys on all instruments I work on, so fitting them isn't an issue for me provided I have the right size barrel reamers for the job (which I can get easily).
But to be honest, I think bright silver plated keys have the best appearance (and feel) of all, what with the contrast if the silver against blackwood (or black plastic which also looks good) - I find gold plate a bit too 'bling' for my liking, though the benefits of gold plated keys for some people oughtweigh the appearance if they're allergic to silver.
I've yet to see platinum plated keys - I've heard they're even more impressive than silver, though way out of my budget.
But badly polished keys are a shame if all the sharp bevels and edges have been softened by someone who does a bad job of it, and I prefer not to use the buffing machine wherever possible.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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