 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-11-25 20:00
There really isn't much work here, you might be best trying to get work where you are. If you are going to study here in the UK you might be lucky but there are alot of us competing for the same thing. Sorry to sound pesimistic but this is the reality as i see it here.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2006-11-25 20:34
Czesc Marta,
Moja zona pochodzi z Polski, jesten anglikiem, ma teraz mieskamy w Wloszek.
The problem is that everyone is asking the same question. There are more clarinetists than jobs!
Does your degree have the option of a teaching certificate? My wife studied biology in Poland and she spent an extra year getting 'Qualified teacher status'. The UK recognises this qualification and it would allow you to teach in schools.
However, you could always work as a private clarinet teacher. The UK is like everywhere else. There are some places where there are lots of teachers and other places where teachers have waiting lists. This would give you time to look around.
You should visit www.abrsm.org
Go to 'Parents' and then 'Message boards'.
Click on 'Forums' to get the main Forum menu. The people are very friendly.
Good luck! Polamania nog!
Steve
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-11-28 17:28
I have friends from Europe who worked as "Au Pair" employees in England last year. They probably earned more than they would have as clarinet players.
Bob Draznik
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2006-11-29 10:50
Czesc Marta,
I think Bob was trying to make the point that you should be able to find work while you look for something better. This is perfectly acceptable.
Actually, the Au-pair idea is very good.
The phrase is 'getting your foot in the door', i.e. You may not be working in music, BUT at least you're in the right place. Finding a music job in the UK is not that easy. Finding it while living in a another country....?
When we were in the UK we had Polish au pairs for our children. Two girls were only doing it while they improved their English. One of them is now studying Business at Cambridge and another decided to work as a nurse.
When I finished university in 1984, there were NO jobs in science. I mean ZERO! I worked for months in restaurants, farms, offices and then one year in a horrible factory where I earned more than I would have in science. I don't regret any of it. You end up with a broader view of life, experience and plenty of stories to tell - some great, some pretty awful. ;-)
So explore all possibilities.
Steve
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-11-29 13:05
Marta, let me be blunt. Very blunt. You may not like what I have to say.
You will not get a job as a clarinet player in England, or not a job that plays a living wage. Anywhere outside London, there are no jobs. In London, a living wage is more than you will earn.
You may well get a job in England, but it will be a job the English do not want to do. We are a lazy people. There are many Poles in England - our government will not tell us how many - and many of them work very hard. They survive because they have skills that are in short supply - electricians, plumbers - or because they do jobs we hate.
You will not get a job in a school. Why not? Because your English is not good enough. If you think I am being rude, then I am sorry. I am just telling you the truth.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2006-11-29 13:07)
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Author: bawa
Date: 2006-11-29 16:10
There are a few Polish teachers in our Conservatory, but they first got into the orchestra, then later on took up teaching. I assume they all had performance degrees and plenty of experience playing in other orchestras before.
Also their command of Spanish is excellent.
So I tend to agree with David here: you may find work in the UK, but it won't be as a clarinetist and you will definitely need to build up your English before you could get a teaching job (f any kind).
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-11-29 21:48
It seems to me that no-one has asked one obvious question:
Are you any good?
Tony
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2006-12-01 08:03
There are more would-be professional musicians than there are professional jobs in the UK. However, if you are determined to come to the UK, there is an extremely active amateur music culture here. In most places, you can find an amateur community band or orchestra, who would welcome a highly skilled player.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-01 09:05
"You will not get a job in a school. Why not? Because your English is not good enough."
I guess it is very different in the UK then. Here we have many teachers whose Hebrew is so much worse than Marta's English.
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Author: bawa
Date: 2006-12-01 15:38
Clarinbass,
I guess it depends on the demand and availability of teachers.
Sometimes schools even want people who speak near native level English but with overseas accents, to try and acquire a more "neutral accent" before they are employable in schools. Sometimes this is frustrating, given the amount of strong local accents around the UK itself.
Of course, this is not crucial in Universities. I had well-known, and even world-famous academics whose English did not sound that good, but then Glaswegian or another of my Welsh professors were equally hard to understand!
But at schools, where you are being a role model for young children to acquire good language skills, it could be a consideration.
Having said that, living in a country can do amazing things for your language abilities, if you make the effort.
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Author: D
Date: 2006-12-01 16:26
If you wanted to teach music in an English school (as a music teacher not a specialist clarinet teacher) you would at least need a PGCE in the appropriate area. To qualify for that you would need to reach a certain level of English - but living in the UK for a few months would probably get you to the right level, a lot of it is learning speech rhythm rather than understanding more words. you clearly understand this ok! A PGCE is a one year post degree course. What your chances would be of getting a job afterwards are I wouldn't like to say because of the problem of schools only liking accents in language teachers . Your chances of becoming a peripatetic teacher or a private music teacher would be like everyone else's' - LOW! But probably hampered further if you run into accent prejudice again. There would also be the issue of work permits and visas. If you came on a short permit then you wouldn't get any private business because people like to think you are going to be around. But you couldn't get a long term permit without special skills and a pre-agreed job. You'd end up working for the guys who clean the boring office block I am temping in. And they probably all have 10 degrees and are qualified astronauts. England is a nice place. But I don't think it is necessarily nice to everyone.
What is wrong with working at home, why the attraction of England?!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-01 16:59
I guess I misunderstood, I thought about university. Schools with younger kids are different.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-12-01 17:21
Mike Clarinet wrote:
> There are more would-be professional musicians than there are professional jobs in the UK.>>
Yes. However, a major part of the reason for that is that those would-be professional musicians aren't good enough. If you ARE good enough, then the situation may be different.
My question is worth pondering for other reasons. For example, if you don't know whether or not you're any good, that may be THE REASON why you aren't any good.
Tony
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2006-12-01 17:38
-- "If you came on a short permit then you wouldn't get any private business because people like to think you are going to be around." --
First of all, Poland is in the EU and they don't need a work permit.
University degrees in Poland are longer than in the UK and in some cases, a teaching certificate is awarded - after a similar period of training as in the PGCE. This is recognised in the UK as giving QTS (Qualified Teacher Status).
The comments about accent just make me laugh. I grew up in the UK and have worked in France, Germany and now in Italy. I understand a redneck from the Mississipi better than I do some of the English accents.
Talk to any of the Polish community in the area south of Luton and you'll actually be able to understand what they're saying. Unlike much of the rest of the place with their strange estuary slang.
Education in Polish schools is far higher than in Britain. Sorry, but true. I have a very good friend who emigrated to Warsaw from England (Polish parents) and he sees this first hand.
The main problem with finding a teaching job will be the jealousy of the other teachers when they see someone with a higher basic education than them, and an english accent and grammar that is correct and can be universally understood!
Steve
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-12-01 19:51
come to NZ
we love hiring people from overseas rather than locals
we seem to hire people who can barely communicate in english, and put them into high schools as classroom teachers (seriously)
i'm leaving all my subbing etc next year, so you can have my jobs!
except.... ta da... you'll barely earn a living wage.
sorry
i still love playing the clarinet though!
donald
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Author: D
Date: 2006-12-01 21:59
Steve, I am not trying to be nasty and certainly not claiming anything about a Polish degree verses an English one. However, the comments I made above about accents are all things which I have seen happen. There is no point denying it, the English can be a pretty silly lot. Just because it is sad doesn't mean it is not true. I totally agree that English regional accents can be incredibly hard to understand. But biases exist in the system and pretending that they may not be a significant problem is not going to help anyone. I come from an area where received pronunciation is the order of the day. Until 'Ant and Dec' became famous a 'Geordy' or person with similar accent wouldn't have stood a chance of being understood. We are very behind the times, but it is still true that without the 'right accent' you are starting seriously behind in this area - and no, I don't particularly want to discuss where I am from! If I have experienced it on more than one occasion then I doubt I am the only one.
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Author: bawa
Date: 2006-12-02 09:03
Steve, while you are right about Poland and the EU working rights,
I am afraid you are way out on accents. Your experience seems to be in Europe with as a Britisher. I am talking about it the other way round.
For instance, a qualified teacher from India can be discriminated against because of accent (I am talking about people who have spoken English all their lives) whereas someone with a strong British regional accent would have no problems, doesn't matter what is harder to understand.
I have worked as a language teacher with the British Council for many years and been a Cambridge Examiner (disclaimer: My only relation to the UK is that I went to Univ there), and a few students would be taken aback when they walked into my class or exam and did not get their "white english teacher".
One of my colleagues (thanks Ian!!) always answered this question the students here loved to ask "who speaks the best English/has the best accent?" He would say "an educated Indian!"
The Polish teachers in my conservatory speak excellent Spanish although with more or less strong accents, but it does not really matter in a music school situation, and besides, as Tony Pay is rightly pointing out, how good are you will also be determinant. The teachers here first won places in the Symphonic Orchestra so they would have had to be high-grade musicians in the first place.
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2006-12-02 09:51
Marta,
I wonder how difficult it would be for you to get a teaching job in the United States, another English-speaking country that is usually hurting to fill music teacher slots in public schools.
I don't know what the procedures are, or if there are any exchange programs that would help you. An expert is welcome to chime in with this information.
Wishing you much success in finding a good position that utilizes your degree.
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Author: graham
Date: 2006-12-02 11:41
As for chances in UK amateur orchestras, they are not that great either. Woodwind vacancies arise rarely in the good orchestras, and then they are usually filled on the basis of who knows whom to be a good player (and reliable etc.). The best way to break in is to play E flat or bass, but then you risk being type cast.
Bands are different of course. There is a very good one in Kew in South West London (though I have never played in it).
Military band professional positions also come up and are open to women in some cases. You may find you need to do lots of medical work alongside music/military duties. I assume it is open to another EU national, but I could well be wrong on the point.
But, as discussed above, the general position re moving to the UK is that you are moving more supply into a place where supply far exceeds demand already.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-12-02 23:22
There are no auditions for positions within UK orchestras at the moment, if you want to play then you should either try and do chamber music or get into the amateur scene whlist trying to build some contacts. You can also get experience in the other European Countries. France has some very good orchestras as does Italy and Spain to name but a few. Also how can you say that studying in Poland is the same as here in the UK?
Peter Cigleris
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-12-03 10:37
Marta, look at it this way.
Suppose you stay in Poland. Will you be able to get a job, that pays enough to live on, as a clarinet player? Not as a teacher, as a player.
If so, then _maybe_ you are good enough to get a job in England.
But my guess is that you are one of many clarinet players graduating in Poland this year alone, and most of you will not get playing jobs.
---
There was a lot of discussion above about accents, and the relative difficulty of understanding regional accents versus foreign accents.
I was not judging Marta's accent. How could I? I have never heard her speak. I was judging her English-language competence on the basis of her written English. In doing this, I was bearing in mind that most learners can write a foreign language better than they can speak it; given time and a dictionary, I can write quite acceptable German, but my spoken German is completely inadequate for any sort of job. On the basis of Marta's written English, I would not expect her to be able to get a job in the UK if that job necessitated a good command of English - as teaching does and playing, of course, does not. That doesn't preclude the possibility that her English will improve. Konrad Korzeniowski spoke little English; by the time he reinvented himself as Joseph Conrad his English was really rather good.
---
Graham wrote, referring to Army music: "I assume it is open to another EU national, but I could well be wrong on the point."
Graham is indeed wrong. To join the British Army, you need to be British or Irish. Commonwealth citizens qualify. Citizens of other EU nations do not. There is also a residence requirement, though this may be flexible.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2006-12-03 10:40)
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Author: bawa
Date: 2006-12-04 13:57
David,
Re: accents. I totally agree that most people's written language command usually outstrips their spoken one. I was also pointing out the difficulty of even people with excellent English who very often find prejudices and hence was asking Marta to judge her own chances given her own level of competence.
I remember when I first walked into the BC and asked for the possibility of applying for a job, and the first thing they said, "Oh we only employ native speakers"... and I said "I am very "native":...." example of a bad pun I guess.
Your point about asking about employability in one's own place is a good one and a good indicator.
Marta: here are links to a couple of sites where you can see for yourself the current types of jobs available in the UK
http://uk.music-jobs.com/jobsboard.php
http://www.8notes.com/directory/directory14.asp
Post Edited (2006-12-04 14:09)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-12-06 05:03
clarinetka wrote:
>> I'm doing my final Bechelor's degree on Academy of music so I have to be good enough!>>
Well, I think that answers my question.
Tony
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Author: Henry_W
Date: 2006-12-07 10:16
I am a (very) amateur clarinettist but a professional linguist and I am surprised to hear that "most learners can write a foreign language better than they can speak it".
This may be true of many people: it is certainly true of myself in the languages I am less familiar with. However, I am a translator (not an interpreter) and am biased towards the written word. I seriously doubt whether it applies to a majority of language learners.
Here in Luxembourg there are a great many people who speak excellent English (French, German etc.) as a foreign language and are perfectly capable of holding down a job (such as teaching the clarinet) where they have to communicate verbally in that language, but have varying degrees of difficulty in putting their words on to paper.
I go to a clarinet teacher who is French, was born in Luxembourg and has worked in the USA. At our first lesson we had to decide which language to use out of French, Luxembourgish and English. We opted for English - the "worst" of his 3 languages - and are getting on fine.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-12-07 13:30
<<I am a (very) amateur clarinettist but a professional linguist and I am surprised to hear that "most learners can write a foreign language better than they can speak it".>>
Perhaps one's facility at speaking or writing a non-native language is a function of how they learned it, or were taught.
I can speak Spanish far better than I can write it, because I was taught it "conversationally." On the other hand, I can write French better than I can speak it, because I was taught first of all to read and write it, and not to speak it.
My late mother-in-law was fluent in speaking five languages -- Ukrainian, Russian, German, Polish, and English. She learned all of these languages conversationally, and could write passably in all but Polish. She never learned to write in Polish because she didn't stay in Poland long enough to have to do so. She could just always understand and speak Polish (said it was very similar to Ukrainian).
Susan
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Author: blue street
Date: 2006-12-10 11:57
My experience is that Music Academies in Poland have a very high standard. Musicians trained there deeply impress me, cause they are just that skilled. I've seen many of them on stage, met some of them in person and I have a huge collection of Polish jazz recordings at home.
And to you Marta, keep on playing your clarinet. Jestes fajna - you're great!
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Author: Noel
Date: 2006-12-11 16:16
I know people have been trying to be helpful and frank, but I think - except with regards to the possibility of professional work with orchestras - it has been slightly too trenchant.
Many people teach musical instruments who don't have your level of qualification. OK - school employment might not be possible at first, but people often post small cards on shop windows and music shops and manage to get a few hours a week. Maybe just enought to get by. As long as you can speak well enough to communicate exactly those things you want to say, what does your accent matter? As a kid I would have loved the idea of being taught by a Polish teacher - so much more exciting than some drab English person (I'm one of them, by the way)
Round my area of east London there are many Polish shops and even a Polish night-club, so one possibility that hasn't been mentioned is that there may be enough resident Polish families in certain areas to give you a small number of students from parents who would even prefer someone who could speak Polish.
London is terribly expensive though - so the idea of au pair work is not so bad while you find your feet.
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The Clarinet Pages
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my name is Marta I'm from Poland...I need advice...because I'm study in Music Academy on third year. In this year I will be have Bachelor's degree. 