 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: marshall
Date: 2006-11-15 23:04
My teacher and another player in my school have both noticed that after the weather change my instrument tends to play flat. What my teacher recommended was to get a shorter barrel...but that poses a few questions.
First, how long is the barrel that came with my clarinet? (it's a new R13 if that makes any difference)
Second, what is the difference between the standard R13 barrel, the Moennig barrel, and the Chadash barrel?
Third, I've come over the term 'poly-cylindrical' many, many times, and the Chadash barrel is described as having a poly-cylindrical bore. I've read some about it but I never really found any information that really helped me understand what it means. Can anyone explain it?
Also...could someone explain why my instrument is playing flat now in the winter when it was in tune in the summer? Everything I've ever heard regarding tuning and the weather is the colder it is the sharper you will be, not flatter. Is it the humidity? Or something else of which I am not aware?
TIA
Oh....one more question. I was under the impression that A clarinet and Bb clarinet barrels were the same...but theyre advertised as otherwise. What is the difference between the two?
Post Edited (2006-11-15 23:17)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-11-16 00:47
Hello Marshall, Here are some of the answers to your questions:
The standard R13 barrel is 66mm. It should say so on the barrel.
The standard barrel of a recently made r13 tends to have a bore that is too wide. Often causing pitch to be sharp in the upper register, and aggravating the sharpness of the throat tones.
The Moennig barrel has a reverse taper...it is wider at the top and thinner at the bottom. This alleviates problems caused by using a wide bore mouthpiece on a small (poly-cylindrical) bore clarinet. It flattens the pitch in the upper register, and lowers the throat tones.
The Chadash barrel is a more complicated reverse taper. An improvement on the Moennig in the eyes of some. Perhaps someone else would comment on their experiences with the Chadash barrel.
Poly-cylindrical refers to the bore dimensions of small bore clarinets. An innovation of the R13 (I think) that has been adopted by many other makers.
"Also...could someone explain why my instrument is playing flat now in the winter when it was in tune in the summer? Everything I've ever heard regarding tuning and the weather is the colder it is the sharper you will be, not flatter. Is it the humidity? Or something else of which I am not aware?"
You've been missinformed from the beginning. The colder your instrument is, the flatter is will play. The warmer, the sharper.
The length of an A clarinet barrel is 65mm on Buffet A clarinets. Chadash and Moennig barrels are offered in many different lengths for both A and Bb, and you should make sure you're getting what you expected.
Please feel free to correct any mistakes!
James Tobin
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2006-11-16 10:52)
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-11-16 08:46
Some models of A clarinet (for instance, Buffet R13) will play better with a barrel with a slightly smaller bore (as well as slightly shorter)- this for pretty much the same reason that the Moennig/Chadash tapers improve intonation as described above.
My Buffet RC A clarinet, for instance, sounds very nice with all the barrels i own, but plays best IN TUNE with a Chadash "650-A" barrel. The 12ths (on my A clarinet) are noticably more problematic when i use any of the B flat barrels i own- and not just on the left hand notes..... This barrel has been reamed with a slightly smaller bore.
hope this was helpful
donald
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Author: marshall
Date: 2006-11-20 01:53
When you say that it should say what length my barrel is on the back of it, are you refering to the '660' on it?
Also, could anyone explain why it will play sharper when it is warmer?
Post Edited (2006-11-20 01:55)
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2006-11-20 02:46
use the search function and look up weather and tuning. there's been loads of articles about how weather affects the sound.
the 660 means "66" mm length. not sure why they use 660 instead of 66, probably has something to do with conversion
warm weather allows more air molecules to move faster, thus creating a higher pitch. cold weather slows down molecules and thus more heat is required to make the molecules vibrate to proper "tuning" temperature. basic science. read more science and physics. you'd be surprised how much clarinets have improved over the ages, and also have a greater understanding of music.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-11-20 10:43
Not to be too pointed about it, but you're investigating barrels as a remedy for pitch problems.
You believe that the clarinet's pitch tendencies are opposite their true nature.
The bigger pitch problem right now is your missconceptions.
Before you go buying anything, adjust your perceptions as to what actually happens to the clarinet and see if you still need something.
C2thew's explanations are good. Ask yourself a question: Do you believe that the instrument goes flatter the longer you play? It can't! You've been blowing 98 degree air into it. The instrument's pitch goes up as it warms.
Another basic axiom of pitch: The louder you play, the flatter the pitch. The softer, the sharper (you must learn to compensate).
Factor these things in to your playing, and see where you end up.
If it is your private teacher who has explained pitch to you, you should ask your teacher why they think the instrument does these things backwards.
James Tobin
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-11-20 11:57
"the 660 means "66" mm length. not sure why they use 660 instead of 66, probably has something to do with conversion"
I think it is just because some barrels come in half millimeter lengths (for example I have a 675 barrel). Probably has nothing to do with conversion.
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Author: marshall
Date: 2006-11-27 01:40
That is what I am saying, it is flat even after a solid hour of playing.
The player-error part isnt it...I've already checked...its consistantly 15-20 cents flat at any volume.
And no, it isnt my private teacher who told me this. It is a band director from my old middle school.
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-11-27 02:16
<<<warm weather allows more air molecules to move faster, thus creating a higher pitch. cold weather slows down molecules and thus more heat is required to make the molecules vibrate to proper "tuning" temperature. basic science. read more science and physics.>>>
Hmmm... This doesn't resemble anything I learned in physics class.
It's been my understanding that the tuning differences at various temperatures and humidities were due to the physical expansion and contraction of the instrument itself.
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-11-27 02:21
<<<The player-error part isnt it...I've already checked...its consistantly 15-20 cents flat at any volume.>>>
I think if I were you, I'd try a 65 mm Buffet Moennig barrel, and see if that didn't do the trick (unless you want to get into something more esoteric). Buy it from a dealer who accepts returns, just in case you need to go down to a 64. I know of a few R13 players who regularly use 65's.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-11-27 02:24
LeeB wrote:
> It's been my understanding that the tuning differences at
> various temperatures and humidities were due to the physical
> expansion and contraction of the instrument itself.
YThe density of the air (temperature & humidity) has an appreciable effect. There are quite a number of posts on this effect.
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-11-27 04:54
<<The density of the air (temperature & humidity) has an appreciable effect. There are quite a number of posts on this effect.>>
But this wouldn't be something that would be affecting pushing in or pulling out your barrel to stay in tune as you warmed up unless you were playing furiously enough to change the humidity and temperature of the room as you played. That would be some kind of clarinet playing.
Seriously, though, I don't know if I buy the idea of air temperature and humidity having an effect apart from changing the dimension of the instrument. The instrument dimension is always going to be subject to the temperature and humidity, so it would be very hard to scientifically prove this unless you had some type of clarinet, mouthpiece and reed that absolutely did not change dimension with variations in temperature and humidity (and that sort of material does not exist).
For instance, if I were to set up a loudspeaker on stage, and play back an A 440 tone on it, it would be measured dead on at A 440 in the audience no matter what temperature or humidity was present in the hall.
Also, no matter what temperature the hall is at, the air going into the business end of the clarinet is going to be roughly a bit lower than 98.6 degrees, and fairly saturated with humidity. The hall temperature and humidity, however, is going to affect how fast the clarinet heats up, swells with humidity, and expands.
It is true that sound moves through air faster as the air temperature rises, but I'm quite sure the period of oscillation or frequency remains the same (unless the source or the listener are in motion, and Doppler shift comes into play).
http://www.sparknotes.com/testprep/books/sat2/physics/chapter17section6.rhtml
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2006-11-27 12:40
The tuning of any horn is dependent on the acoustical length of the instrument. The acoustical length is a function of both the physical length and the speed of sound of the gas within the instrument. Sound speed in any gas is highly temperature dependent and is much greater than the effect of temperature on the horn's physical length. Relative humidity (RH) also has an effect, but the moisture in your breath will always keep it at 100% RH within the instrument - that's why the condensation forms in the bore. The air blown into the instrument will quickly to change to the instrument's temperature before escaping, thus causing it to go sharper as the instrument warms up. The higher temperature air also holds more moisture at 100% RH, furthur increasing the sharpness. The carbon dioxide in your breath should also have an effect as it will lower the sound speed. To prove the point, temporarily filling your horn with a gas having a different sound speed than air, such as carbon dioxide or helium, should have a dramatic effect on pitch for anyone willing to experiment (I haven't tried it).
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-11-27 13:21
LeeB wrote:
> It's been my understanding that the tuning differences at
> various temperatures and humidities were due to the physical
> expansion and contraction of the instrument itself.
Sorry, LeeB, this is just absolutely and utterly wrong.
As a clarinet heats up, it expands, and therefore becomes longer. This effect alone, were it significant (which it isn't) would cause it to become flatter, not sharper.
It is easy to verify this. The pitch of a clarinet can easily vary by 1% between a cold and a warm environment. If this were caused by lengthening of the instrument, you would find a length change of 1%, which is about 6mm. Measure your clarinet. Play it. Measure it again. Has the length changed by 6mm? No, I thought not.
The effect of any thermal expansion on the bore size is a bit more difficult to calculate. As the material expands, does the inside diameter increase or does it decrease? An increase in internal diameter will cause the pitch to rise, a decrease will cause to it to fall. But common sense (which may be wrong, I admit) tells us that humidity will cause the wood to swell, so decreasing the internal diameter and causing the pitch to fall - the exact opposite of what we observe.
...
Later, LeeB wrote:
"It is true that sound moves through air faster as the air temperature rises, but I'm quite sure the period of oscillation or frequency remains the same (unless the source or the listener are in motion, and Doppler shift comes into play)."
Again, you have misunderstood the physics. The length of the clarinet (which is effectively constant at any temperature it is likely to encounter) determines the wavelength of the sound it produces. However, our ears perceive frequency, not wavelength. The product of frequency and wavelength is the speed of sound, which rises as the temperature rises. So the (effectively) fixed length of tubing produces a higher and higher frequency as the temperature rises.
Again, you can prove this to yourself. Get two electronic tuners and set them to sound the same note. Make sure they really are exactly in tune with each other. Now put one a few feet outside your house, on a cold day, and keep the other one inside with you. Open the window. You are hearing one through cold air, one through warm air. Are they now out of tune with each other? No, I thought not. Do the same experiment with two clarinets, and the one outdoors will be way flat to the one indoors.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2006-11-27 13:26)
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-11-27 17:03
> The effect of any thermal expansion on the bore size is a bit
> more difficult to calculate. As the material expands, does the
> inside diameter increase or does it decrease? An increase in
> internal diameter will cause the pitch to rise, a decrease will
> cause to it to fall. But common sense (which may be wrong, I
> admit) tells us that humidity will cause the wood to swell, so
> decreasing the internal diameter and causing the pitch to fall
> - the exact opposite of what we observe.
I think you have it backwards. An *increase* in internal diameter would make the internal volume of the instrument greater, and the pitch will fall. Increased temperature and humidity in the horn make the wood swell, *decreasing* the internal diameter, and the pitch rises.
<<<Again, you have misunderstood the physics. The length of the clarinet (which is effectively constant at any temperature it is likely to encounter) determines the wavelength of the sound it produces.>>>
I don't think that's correct. Diameter also matters in terms of determining the effective length of the clarinet (and all open pipes). It's called the "end correction." The resonating air column extends beyond the end of the instrument, and it's affected by the diameter of the pipe. The larger the internal diameter, the longer the effective length of the pipe.
<<<It is easy to verify this. The pitch of a clarinet can easily vary by 1% between a cold and a warm environment.>>>
I think the thing that was confusing me about this (and may be confusing others) is that the pitch of the clarinet doesn't change because of what happens to the sound in the environment once it leaves the clarinet. (That's what I thought was being discussed earlier.) It all depends on what's happening inside the clarinet. I guess the environment would have an effect to the extent that room air infiltrates the clarinet or cools the clarinet in a colder room, but pitch does not go flat as it travels through cold air in a hall.
Post Edited (2006-11-27 18:46)
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-11-27 17:19
<<<Relative humidity (RH) also has an effect, but the moisture in your breath will always keep it at 100% RH within the instrument - that's why the condensation forms in the bore.>>>
I would imagine that the presence of condensed water inside the bore also effectively decreases the diameter of the bore.
Can anyone point me to a link where the relative impact of all these various factors (temperature, humidity, dimensional change, etc.) is discussed? I was able to find some interesting discussions related to the pipe organ (where even more factors apparently come into play - like air pressure variations and reed elasticity), but nothing in depth specific to the clarinet.
Post Edited (2006-11-27 18:33)
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-11-28 10:58
LeeB wrote "I think you have it backwards. An *increase* in internal diameter would make the internal volume of the instrument greater, and the pitch will fall. Increased temperature and humidity in the horn make the wood swell, *decreasing* the internal diameter, and the pitch rises."
Wrong again, I'm afraid. If you hang a sufficiently fat piece of string inside a Bb clarinet, its pitch falls until you get a crude approximation of an A clarinet.
Strange but true. No, I can't explain why. I suspect this is a completely separate issue from end correction: I think you will find that the end correction is dependent largely on the bell diameter, whereas the piece of string decreases the diameter all the way down.
You are of course correct to say that the diameter matters as well as the length. The point I was making is that the effect of temperature on diameter is too small to matter.
Once again, it is easy to prove this. Making a Bb clarinet into an A clarinet requires a very thick piece of string. No temperature-induced variation in diameter will come anywhere near this.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-11-28 14:34
<<<Wrong again, I'm afraid. If you hang a sufficiently fat piece of string inside a Bb clarinet, its pitch falls until you get a crude approximation of an A clarinet.>
Interesting. Does anyone have a link to the discussion of the physics of this phenomenon?
My suspicion would be that the lowering of pitch would be related to changes in acoustic properties due to deforming the shape of the clarinet interior so that it was a less perfect cylinder, and not merely due to a diameter reduction (actually, more of an area or volume reduction).
Post Edited (2006-11-28 19:02)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-11-29 11:44
Physics not withstanding, back to the topic...
Marshall:
"That is what I am saying, it is flat even after a solid hour of playing.
The player-error part isnt it...I've already checked...its consistantly 15-20 cents flat at any volume.
And no, it isnt my private teacher who told me this. It is a band director from my old middle school."
I can understand feeling very frustrated, I once played ridiculously sharp. More troubling is that your m.s. band director isn't familiar with pitch.
I am glad your clarinet teacher is...but why haven't they corrected you? Did you never tell them that you disagreed with what they were saying? Or do they not notice that your pitch is so low?
What worries me most is that you find you are consistently flat an hour later. I would almost find that impossible (unless you have rehearsals in a 40 degree space).
I'd check another tuner, and make sure that it is pitched to A=440.
I'd check your embouchure, and make sure that you are keeping your chin flat (or some say pointed) as you play.
After this: I'd trouble shoot your equipment starting with the things closest to your face.
Take your mouthpiece off of your instrument, and trade the entire clarinet with the person sitting next to you. Are you still flat with their clarinet? Are they flat with yours?
Trade mouthpiece and barrel with same person, ask same questions.
Find someone with the same or smiliar mouthpiece and trade the mouthpieces and check pitch.
Let us know what you find!
Good luck!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2006-11-29 19:43
For whatever its worth, the following table shows the calculated change in tuning due to a change in air temperature within the bore, assuming the air temperature is uniform (which it isn't) and the instrument is tuned to 440 Hz at 20 deg. C (20 deg is arbitrary, nobody would tune while this cold)
Temperature....Frequency.....Change
(deg C/F)........ (HZ) .... (cents)
20/68.0 ....... 440.00 ........ 0.0
21/68.8 ....... 440.75 ........ 2.9
22/71.6 ....... 441.50 ........ 5.9
23/73.4 ....... 442.25 ........ 8.8
24/75.2 ....... 442.99 ....... 11.7
25/77.0 ....... 443.74 ....... 14.6
26/78.8 ....... 444.48 ....... 17.5
27/80.6 ....... 445.22 ....... 20.4
28/82.4 ....... 445.97 ....... 23.3
29/84.2 ....... 446.71 ....... 26.2
30/86.0 ....... 447.45 ....... 29.1
31/87.8 ....... 448.18 ....... 31.9
32/89.6 ....... 448.92 ....... 34.7
Post Edited (2006-11-29 19:58)
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Author: vollkommen
Date: 2006-11-29 21:30
When it's cold and a clarinet "contracts", the bore doesn't get smaller, it gets slightly larger. What's happening is that the molecules of whatever the material is are pulling together - the thickness of the clarinet becomes smaller that it is at room temperature. The problem that most people have when they think of this is that they don't understand that a clarinet does not expand away from or towards the center of the instrument (the bore) - it expands from or contracts toward the center of the wall, meaning that an increase in temperature makes the diameter smaller (pitch goes up) and a decrease in temperature makes the diameter larger (pitch goes down), in the vast majority of clarinets (some of those off-brands do some funny things in the cold...). Someone mentioned the end-correction idea concerning pipes (open ones). The diameter of the pipe in question affects pitch more dramatically with a small change in size than would the length. The string thing that was mentioned is due to the change in the form of the standing wave created - it isn't an approximation of what would happen with a diameter decrease (this last bit about the string isn't something that I came up with, it came from a physics professor at Indiana University).
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-11-30 05:20
<<<When it's cold and a clarinet "contracts", the bore doesn't get smaller, it gets slightly larger.>>>
I'd think of it like a donut. When you fry a donut, it expands inwardly and outwardly.
Regardless, I've done more reading on the topic (especially in connection with pipe organs), and I'm now completely won over to David Peacham's and Mark Charrette's point of view. Dimensional change might have a subtle effect, but the pitch change really is mostly about the temperature and humidity of the air inside the bore, and the way they effect the speed of sound. I've seen the math. You learn something new every day.
Intuitively, it seemed to me that it SHOULD be mostly about dimensional change. After all, dimensional change is what you do to to correct the problem (pulling of the barrel, or changing to a barrel of a different size). I guess I was also prejudiced because of so much experience with instruments (guitars, pianos, etc.) where dimensional change caused by temperature and humidity does have a profound effect on the instrument's intonation. I've learned that a clarinet is different from a piano.
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2006-11-30 13:12
As an engineer, I can assure you Vollkommen is incorrect when claiming that cooling causes an increase in bore diameter. All dimensions - the ouside diameter, wall thickness, and inside diameter, increase when heated and decrease when cooled. If grenadilla/mpingo is similar to other woods, the change parallel to the grain (the instument length) is much smaller (percentage wise) than across the grain.
The effect on tuning resulting from this physical size change is insignificant, as it is small compared to the effect of the air temperaure change within the bore. However, the wood's physical size change, although very small, can effect the mechanical adjustment of certain keys, causing sealing problems. I know this from experience with my R13.
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Author: Merlin
Date: 2006-11-30 13:19
I remember seeing a demonstration on the BBC TV show "Don't Ask Me" on the temperature/pitch relationship.
They did it with a tuba.
One tuba was kept at studio temperature; the other was in a chest freezer.
The warm tuba was played, and the pitch checked. The cold tuba was then taken out of the freezer, and played (with the warm m/p of course!). It was found to be playing much lower in pitch.
All due to the density of the air.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-11-30 17:16
Disclaimer...I made and sell the little suckahs ( altho' presently on hold until my cervical disk surgery heals)
Barrels shipped by overnight carriers will be subjected to Jetstream temperatures that exist at high altitudes. They must be allowed to equilibrate prior to testing.
Barrels bores change over time. Ones that are,say, 0.585 right after the second or third step in reaming can be +/- 0.050 the next day. This varies with the type of wood or even with Delrin or Hard Rubber.
They then change after sealants or oils.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-11-30 19:11
> **** "The tuning of any horn is dependent on the acoustical length of the instrument". *** <
Yes, but that is only one side of the coin. If you increase the bore volume within the same length of the clarinet it will play sharper and opposite will happen when the bore volume is decreased. It's very easy to check with a rope (shoe lace) inside the bore. The rope makes clarinet play flatter and by choosing the correct thickness indeed you can make Bb clarinet sound like "A". Don't expect replace your "A" clarinet by doing this yet as the overall tuning is way off.
> **** "I think you have it backwards. An *increase* in internal diameter would make the internal volume of the instrument greater, and the pitch will fall. *** <
Every time someone tries to explain how clarinet works in scientific terms it always comes to this BS. Place a shoe lace down the bore and see for yourself.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2006-11-30 22:04)
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-11-30 23:20
<<Every time someone tries to explain how clarinet works in scientific terms it always comes to this BS. Place a shoe lace down the bore and see for yourself.>>
I'm quite sure this is a different effect, not related to modifying the diameter. Someone else suggested it influences standing waves within the instrument. The string obviously distorts the characteristics of a cylinder.
---
The formula that I found on the web for the relationship between bore diameter and effective length (end effect) is:
Effective Length= L + xd
x=0.3 (approximately)
You can see by the formula that if you increases the diameter ("d"), the effective length is increased, and the pitch is lowered.
If decreasing the bore diameter lowered pitch, I'd expect we'd be seeing a lot of really skinny low clarinets.
BTW, I don't know if this link has ever been listed, but there's a great website dealing with clarinet acoustics here:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/clarinetacoustics.html
Post Edited (2006-11-30 23:32)
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2006-12-01 02:50
<<Every time someone tries to explain how clarinet works in scientific terms it always comes to this BS. Place a shoe lace down the bore and see for yourself.>>
<<I'm quite sure this is a different effect, not related to modifying the diameter. Someone else suggested it influences standing waves within the instrument. The string obviously distorts the characteristics of a cylinder.>>
But Vytas was correct. I play Albert/Simple system. I've had 30 or more such clarinets. Invariably, those with narrower bores were lower in pitch (and shorter by a bit) than the wider bores.
And, although I posted about this sometime ago, I'll repeat it here. I do have one of those Howard (I believe that's the name) cords which were sold to transform a Bb clarinet to an A. It even has its original box. It is the diameter of a cord like those worn on the shoulders of some military or Boy Scout lanyards (about 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch in diameter). It does work, but it makes the tone very weak. It was said to work on the principle that it narrowed the bore by taking up free space. So the suggestion made about using a shoe lace was right on.
One more example: the Greek "tsabouna" players (that's a twin chantered type of Greek island bagpipe) tune the one pipe to the other by putting a length of broom straw in the sharper tube to lower its tone. I learned that from a tsabouna player from Kythnos in 1976.
A physicist could tell us why this works; I don't know, but it does work!
Good luck.
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: msausville
Date: 2006-12-01 06:24
Folks,
Please read horns, strings and harmony by arthur benade.
By a physicist for non-physicist musicians. Covers the temperature issue in clear and accurate English.
Also, there are many other wonderful things to learn in this book.
Art was a clarinetist.
M.
ps: an easy way to drive the clarinet with a denser gas is to drink a carbonated beverage of your choice while playing. when it's time to burp, do so, and continue to play a held note. notice what happens to the pitch. you'll definitely hear it.
and people say I never contribute....
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2006-12-01 14:14
I was wondering if the "string down the bore trick" was actually the equivalent of reducing the diameter. This morning I adapted a mouthpiece to both a 0.500 inch bore tube and a 0.625 inch bore tube, each 21 1/4 inches long. The smaller diameter tube produced the lower tone. Placing anything down either bore also lowered the frequency as reported by many others.
So much for classroom physics - there obviously is an effect not being accounted for in the textbook calculation of the resonant frequency of an open ended pipe. The textbook "end effect" is being swamped out by something even more significant. I suspect that the sound speed in a gas is being reduced when travelling parallel to the nearby solid surface of the bore.
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-12-01 18:21
<<<ps: an easy way to drive the clarinet with a denser gas is to drink a carbonated beverage of your choice while playing. when it's time to burp, do so, and continue to play a held note. notice what happens to the pitch. you'll definitely hear it.>>>
This is especially of concern to beer drinking clarinetists working in polka bands.
You've heard of the the "Beer Barrel Polka," haven't you? Most people think that song is about the barrels that contain beer. In actuality, the song is about clarinet "beer" barrels of a special length that allow drunken beer drinking clarinetists with carbon dioxide laden breath to play in tune.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-01 18:24
"Hey, Bubba! Let me borrow your knife - I need to slice off a breath of air."
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2006-12-01 19:06
<<<I was wondering if the "string down the bore trick" was actually the equivalent of reducing the diameter. This morning I adapted a mouthpiece to both a 0.500 inch bore tube and a 0.625 inch bore tube, each 21 1/4 inches long. The smaller diameter tube produced the lower tone. Placing anything down either bore also lowered the frequency as reported by many others.
So much for classroom physics - there obviously is an effect not being accounted for in the textbook calculation of the resonant frequency of an open ended pipe.>>>
In this case, I wonder if the factor you're not accounting for is the impedance mismatch that probably exists in the transition from the larger bore of the mouthpiece to the 0.500 bore of the small tube. That probably has some affect on the physical acoustics of the pipe.
The more I read about the physics involved with clarinets, the more I am struck by how complex of a topic it actually is.
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2006-12-01 20:15
The impedance mismatch mentioned by LeeB can certainly have an effect and may be the cause. The choice of tube bores used, bracketed the mouthpiece exit bore (0.587 inch). I had also attempted to use a 0.750" dia. tube - it wouldn't play at the fundamental but jumped to a much higher frequency, probably due to the impedance mismatch. I will try making a tapered transition to the bore changes and see what happens.
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Author: fiato
Date: 2006-12-04 15:58
Marshall -
In response to your question about differences in Moennig, Chadash and regulare Buffet barrels:
1) Regular barrels tune well, play with a flexible sound and looser center.
2) Chadash are tight and straight blowing, with less flexibility and a rather cold projected tone.
3) Moennig are in the middle: focused, but with ability to change tone color and expand the sound. Give a tight core to throat tones, as do Chadash.
4) Backun are more like regular barrels.
All have their place, depending upon what your clarinet is like, time of year, hall temperature, music being played, ensemble size. Presently, on my A r-13, I use regular barrels, 64mm. or 65mm.. I even use a 63 mm. when I need to use a cold A which never gets a chance to warm up. On my Bflat r-13 I use Moennig 65mm. or 66mm.
Chadash give too restrictive a feel for me now, but I have used them in the past.
Another note: Vandoren M series mouthpieces are flat, only warm up to A=440. If you must use them, have them chopped off, or got to shorter barrels, especially in the winter.
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2006-12-04 18:52
LeeB was correct in attributing the change in pitch in my experiment to the sudden change in diameter at the mouthpiece joint. But rather than taper the transition as first planned, I put shorter (10 ") tubes of each of the two diameters on the mouthpiece and then further shortened the smaller bore tube until it produced the same pitch as the larger bore tube. Once this was done, adding an equal additional lengths to both tubes always produced the same pitch change. In effect, the 0.500" bore tube always had to be about an inch shorter than the 0.625" bore tube to produce the same pitch.
However, to add fuel to a few other heated discussions, the two tubes were of different materials and sounded different when at the same pitch. But this could be due to differences in wall thickness rather than material. The smaller bore tube also had a rougher surface.
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Author: jezzo
Date: 2006-12-05 12:30
I always carry with my clarinet a long and a short barrel. I usually use the long one, but sometimes (I play with many different musicians) i just have to use the small barrel otherwice my clarinet is not tuned as the others.
My hot clarinet blog
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